Autopsy This is going to be painful. The Dogs V Bombers debacle thread.

[doggiesin08]

Oliver G is it possible to see how many of English’s first 50/100 games he had the hit-outs or not of Bulldogs players, i.e. a proxy for if he was playing as #1 or #2 ruck, and how that stacks up for example against Luke Darcy?

Whether he should be a #1 Ruck or a KPF/Ruck now is one question, but my sense is for his development years we made him the #1 ruck way too quickly.

 

[who_let_the_dogs_out]

We probably both agree that the club doesn't need to be paying English $1m a year for 7 years but the bolded bits seem contradictory (Gawn aside). Could you clarify please? Is a good ruckman important or not? And what constitutes being "good" - just being a strong tap ruckman at CBs, stoppages and throw-ins?

A solid tap ruckman is all that's needed. Clearly this won't happen whilst Beveridge is at the helm though.

A McInerney, Soldo, Witts type, someone that can win the tap in the centre and around the ground, help out in the backline etc. No frills, but doesn't mind the physical stuff.

Our A grade mids are being wasted with our current ruck setup.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Adam Cooney clowns around on his late night C7 show but he’s still an astute commentator.

His opinion isn’t that we’ve got too many fringe players - every team does - but that Bev has no idea what his best team is . We’ve got a revolving door of almost - nearly players in & out every week . Team selection lacks any consistency, and thus we’re unsettled .

Injuries will occur as the season goes on , and then I fear we’ll be in massive trouble .

When you include the number of players who's careers are either stalling, on the precipice, all but over, combined with all of the long shot cast offs currently in or on the verge of the team. Then we do have too many fringe players. Especially on the wings and flanks, positions in the modern game that are essentially extra midfielders. When you have a group so large and out of form as we currently have. It's little wonder that we've seen a revolving door and such an unsettled side.

It's why the load rests so heavily on the shoulders of The Bont, Libba, Treloar and in Smiths absence why we've fast tracked Sanders before his time. There just isn't anything underneath. Why the pro commentariat refuse to recognise this fact and prefer the trope of our midfield being one of the best in the competition just beggars belief. I suspect that they do it deliberately as it gives them an easily digestible talking point for them and low IQ fans to hook into during the current pile on.

Anybody actually paying attention over the last season or so would recognise this as a verifiable fact.

On my way to the fools' paradise, dropped in to say that I don't think Beveridge is destroying the club. Frankly, it appears to be more lack of player effort than anything else.

Its the causality dilemma that Ive been wrestling with for some time.

Coach or players. Ones natural reaction is to take the easy route and back the players and blame the coach entirely.

Im not so sure anymore...

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Just went to the Port Adelaide board to see how Sweet was going . Leads the SA ressies in hitouts, had 48 in one game.

I wouldn't read too much into that.

It's in a competition so ordinary that Port are looking to cut ties with after 150 years.

Coaches Votes

Western Bulldogs v Essendon​

10 Samuel Durham (ESS)
6 Xavier Duursma (ESS)
4 Mason Redman (ESS)
4 Zach Merrett (ESS)
2 Harrison Jones (ESS)
2 Kyle Langford (ESS)
1 Jamarra Ugle-Hagan (WB)
1 Taylor Duryea (WB)

It speaks volumes that the top 6 Essendon players are hard working flankers and mid types.

 

[Claudonious]

The strange part is that he's put in some great performances against Gawn. Then will somehow let Bailey Williams beat him in the contest

Bailey Williams is having a good season.Is developing well.


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[Claudonious]

Pretty sure he's said he just wants to be the number 1 ruckman, hasn't he?

Objection your honour - hearsay

Show me footage of him actually saying it - and I will believe it as fact.

It’s one of many big footy myths.


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[Claudonious]

Oh for sure, they are to blame for this gameplan but he is the one who goes into the centre bounce like a deer in the headlights. Blokes like Rhys Stanley and a 50 year old Goldstein should not be monstering the so called AA Ruckman.

Imagine how good our midfield would be if we played Grundy or even Ivan Soldo. And we're about to pay him a rumoured 1M a year on a lengthy contract? Please.

His strengths are his field kicking and follow up work, but why should that be his job? At his height and wingspan he should be dominating the hitouts. Win the tap then provide an option down back in the hole or as a tall up forward to bring it to ground.

There's a reason why most of the premiership sides of the last decade or so (other than Melbourne) have had run of the mill ruckmen, it's a role that isn't as important as marking key defence pillars or speed on the outside etc etc, yet the Bulldogs like the extra numbers around the contest and see English as almost another midfielder, but that all falls apart if our mids aren't getting first use of the ball and constantly playing reactive footy rather than dictating the play in the middle.

Watching teams like Melbourne, Port, Sydney, GWS even the likes of Brisbane demonstrates what a proper tap ruckman can do for a midfield. I blame Beveridge as well because clearly he does not respect the role of a ruckman, just ask Will Minson or Stef Martin, who barely got a look in.

Minson was left out, yes. Martin would have played every week if he wasn’t perpetually injured.


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[Unnamed1]

S

Minson was left out, yes. Martin would have played every week if he wasn’t perpetually injured.


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Minson was AA in 2013, right? And left out pretty much straight away under Bevo in 2015

 

[bresker]

In favour of Ayce Cordy

Ayce Cordy

Age

33

Ht

204cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

3.7

1star

HB

4.3

3star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

0.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

9.0

3star

K

3.0

1star

HB

6.0

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.2

3star

. We could do with Ayce back at the club, harden up English a bit.

 

[stefoid]

When you include the number of players who's careers are either stalling, on the precipice, all but over, combined with all of the long shot cast offs currently in or on the verge of the team. Then we do have too many fringe players. Especially on the wings and flanks, positions in the modern game that are essentially extra midfielders. When you have a group so large and out of form as we currently have. It's little wonder that we've seen a revolving door and such an unsettled side.

agreed but wings and flanks... relative to keypos and pure mids. Its a better position to be in as the latter are harder to find. Maybe being a dogs supporter for so long, our abundance of quality talls is so novel, Im blowing it out of proportion and misreading the list?

I reckon wings and flanks are more about being in the right place at the right time - something that is on the coaches. keypos and mids are more about ability to win contests which is talent based.

doesnt mean any old player can be a wing or flank - they also need their talent... decision making and execution. But in general, I reckon we should be able to find good ones more readily (and IF we can coach them properly.)

 

[TiAn_]

For some time - not just this year - there has been a clear disconnect between what the stats say about English and what the many critics' eye test is telling them.

It looks that way to me too. I often think he's put in a pretty soft game but the HOs and especially HOTAs seem pretty good. Also our clearance stats are normally pretty good (hard to tell how much that's due to the likes of Libba and Bont and how much to English though). He also gets lots of around the ground disposals and tackles but they don't appear to hurt the opposition terribly much.

I haven't quite figured it all out yet, although I admit I haven't thought deeply about it to this point.
To save me getting a headache can anyone translate all this into a coherent analysis for me? One that explains the contrast between the eye test and the stats.

I think there’s one measure that reflects the view that he gets pushed around and can be easy to ruck against. Eight ruckmen had season/career high hitouts in Tim’s 23 games in 2023:

Bailey Williams (career)
Reilly O’Brien (career)
Scott Lycett (career)
Ned Reeves (career, twice, both against Tim English)
Hayden Maclean (career)
Marc Pittonet (season, 2nd highest career)
Jarrod Witts (season)
Andrew Phillips (season)

So that’s 9/23 games (Reeves twice) he gave up a season/career high hit outs to his direct opponent. That doesn’t include when he got rolled by the debutant, Toby Conway.

So over once every three weeks, an opponent had a day out in the ruck contest against him. And that was in by far his best season to date.

This season he’s conceded the season high to Bailey Williams, Levi Casboult set his career high against us and Rhys Stanley was one shy of his career high and had easily his season high to date.

 

[Shacf501]

I think there’s one measure that reflects the view that he gets pushed around and can be easy to ruck against. Eight ruckmen had season/career high hitouts in Tim’s 23 games in 2023:

Bailey Williams (career)
Reilly O’Brien (career)
Scott Lycett (career)
Ned Reeves (career, twice, both against Tim English)
Hayden Maclean (career)
Marc Pittonet (season, 2nd highest career)
Jarrod Witts (season)
Andrew Phillips (season)

So that’s 9/23 games (Reeves twice) he gave up a season/career high hit outs to his direct opponent. That doesn’t include when he got rolled by the debutant, Toby Conway.

So over once every three weeks, an opponent had a day out in the ruck contest against him. And that was in by far his best season to date.

This season he’s conceded the season high to Bailey Williams, Levi Casboult set his career high against us and Rhys Stanley was one shy of his career high and had easily his season high to date.

Great post... you have pretty mcuh summed him up..

Though, our midfield need to be more defensively minded based on these stats...

I would love to ask Luke about this!! Any journos out there!!

 

[dogwatch]

I think there’s one measure that reflects the view that he gets pushed around and can be easy to ruck against. Eight ruckmen had season/career high hitouts in Tim’s 23 games in 2023:

Bailey Williams (career)
Reilly O’Brien (career)
Scott Lycett (career)
Ned Reeves (career, twice, both against Tim English)
Hayden Maclean (career)
Marc Pittonet (season, 2nd highest career)
Jarrod Witts (season)
Andrew Phillips (season)

So that’s 9/23 games (Reeves twice) he gave up a season/career high hit outs to his direct opponent. That doesn’t include when he got rolled by the debutant, Toby Conway.

So over once every three weeks, an opponent had a day out in the ruck contest against him. And that was in by far his best season to date.

This season he’s conceded the season high to Bailey Williams, Levi Casboult set his career high against us and Rhys Stanley was one shy of his career high and had easily his season high to date.

Not a ruck list to drool over really either. Witts is probably the best of them but bog-average after that.

 

[TDDogs]

I think there’s one measure that reflects the view that he gets pushed around and can be easy to ruck against. Eight ruckmen had season/career high hitouts in Tim’s 23 games in 2023:

Bailey Williams (career)
Reilly O’Brien (career)
Scott Lycett (career)
Ned Reeves (career, twice, both against Tim English)
Hayden Maclean (career)
Marc Pittonet (season, 2nd highest career)
Jarrod Witts (season)
Andrew Phillips (season)

So that’s 9/23 games (Reeves twice) he gave up a season/career high hit outs to his direct opponent. That doesn’t include when he got rolled by the debutant, Toby Conway.

So over once every three weeks, an opponent had a day out in the ruck contest against him. And that was in by far his best season to date.

This season he’s conceded the season high to Bailey Williams, Levi Casboult set his career high against us and Rhys Stanley was one shy of his career high and had easily his season high to date.

Can someone please show these stats to Beveridge and the board?

 

[dogwatch]

Can someone please show these stats to Beveridge and the board?

Pretty sure they'd be well aware of this. They just won't want to talk about it publicly. Fair enough too.

 

[Dogs Rule]

I think there’s one measure that reflects the view that he gets pushed around and can be easy to ruck against. Eight ruckmen had season/career high hitouts in Tim’s 23 games in 2023:

Bailey Williams (career)
Reilly O’Brien (career)
Scott Lycett (career)
Ned Reeves (career, twice, both against Tim English)
Hayden Maclean (career)
Marc Pittonet (season, 2nd highest career)
Jarrod Witts (season)
Andrew Phillips (season)

So that’s 9/23 games (Reeves twice) he gave up a season/career high hit outs to his direct opponent. That doesn’t include when he got rolled by the debutant, Toby Conway.

So over once every three weeks, an opponent had a day out in the ruck contest against him. And that was in by far his best season to date.

This season he’s conceded the season high to Bailey Williams, Levi Casboult set his career high against us and Rhys Stanley was one shy of his career high and had easily his season high to date.

Personally, if the Eagles offer a Godfather deal to us, then we should have little hesitation. To concede so many days out against average, and that's being generous, opponents is just really poor.

 

[Doggy]

Personally, if the Eagles offer a Godfather deal to us, then we should have little hesitation. To concede so many days out against average, and that's being generous, opponents is just really poor.

Their interest has cooled somewhat over the last 7 or 8 months.

He will stay so people should get use to it

 

[BEaston]

I think it’s more the issue that Bev can’t develop a list. When he walked into the club at the end of 2014 the list was there, so was the balance of experience. Fast forward 9 years and he still hasn’t worked out player strengths and development

That's a bit of a fallacy. 3 players have developed into AA level players in his time.

 

[_Mike_]

That's a bit of a fallacy. 3 players have developed into AA level players in his time.

You could argue that those 3 always had the talent to end up AA & wouldnt have to rely on a coach to get them there. The constant chopping/changing of player positions has led to a number of players being played out of position, stagnating, and being moved on. Those players are then topped up with delistings/trades from other clubs which over the last 8 years has often been a miss rather than a hit

 

[Golden_6]

You could argue that those 3 always had the talent to end up AA & wouldnt have to rely on a coach to get them there. The constant chopping/changing of player positions has led to a number of players being played out of position, stagnating, and being moved on. Those players are then topped up with delistings/trades from other clubs which over the last 8 years has often been a miss rather than a hit

Are we talking about Dale, Daniel & English? No person in their right minds would have considered Dale & Daniel as possible future AA back in 2015.

 

[yebach]

Are we talking about Dale, Daniel & English? No person in their right minds would have considered Dale & Daniel as possible future AA back in 2015.

Not sure about Dale. But the wraps on Daniel were huge.
Many draft watchers said if he was 10cm taller he would have been the No 1 pick in the draft.
English also had big wraps pre draft.

 

[Golden_6]

Not sure about Dale. But the wraps on Daniel were huge.
Many draft watchers said if he was 10cm taller he would have been the No 1 pick in the draft.
English also had big wraps pre draft.

I'm not sure why every club isn't drafting guaranteed AA at picks 19 & 46 every year.

I understand people are piling onto Bevo at the moment but we don't need to alter history. Bevo helped developed all of these AA players.

 

[Sentinel]

Not sure about Dale. But the wraps on Daniel were huge.
Many draft watchers said if he was 10cm taller he would have been the No 1 pick in the draft.
English also had big wraps pre draft.

And if my aunty had wheels she would have been a bike

 

[yebach]

I'm not sure why every club isn't drafting guaranteed AA at picks 19 & 46 every year.

I understand people are piling onto Bevo at the moment but we don't need to alter history. Bevo helped developed all of these AA players.

Grundy was drafted around the same position. At the time and maybe it's still the case, clubs we not prepared to give up very early picks for ruckmen.
Caleb was one of the most dominant players in his under 18 year.
I agree with what you're saying about the Bevo pile on. But lets not pretend he's turned water into wine either.

 

[Unnamed1]

I'm not sure why every club isn't drafting guaranteed AA at picks 19 & 46 every year.

I understand people are piling onto Bevo at the moment but we don't need to alter history. Bevo helped developed all of these AA players.

Yep, helped developed them all, giving them games, while not "rebuilding" a list - managing to keep us there and about most years, and two GFs 5 years apart. Dunkley had played 17 games before the 2016 GF (and was beaten on the day) and Daniel had played 28 or so (and was beaten on the day). Tom Boyd was picked over Minson, an AA ruckman from 3 years before and Boyd could have won the Norm Smith. Our turnover merchant on the HBF, JJ, had played about 55 games and won the Norm Smith, notwithstanding 6 clangers, sub 70% disposal efficiency (but granted 876 meters gained).

There are ebbs and flows, but I'm getting pretty over the Bevo must go drivel from people and outsiders with a bone against our club like Kornes. There is method to his madness, and that mad genius has taken us to more GFs than any other coach in our history.