VFA Vs VFL

[SportsCentre]

http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au


Stumbled on this website.
I haven't gone through it in huge depth, but it looks like it could be of interest to the topic.

 

[footyfan1978]

View attachment 600637

I consider Marc Fiddian's book on the VFA published in 1977 as the best historical account of the VFA and covers the rise and demise of many of the former clubs (pre 1977). Was written at the time the Association was strong and I still shake my head as to how quickly the demise of the VFA occurred. Hopefully, the remaining stand alone current VFL clubs and AFL aligned former VFA clubs can survive this AFL dominated era.

I think it was relevant whilst it was seen as Sunday arvo of footy in Melbourne and was on tv. Had an interesting point of difference with 16 on field instead of 18 and was more brutal in terms of violence on field. It tended to have recently retired VFL players to some degree but also cult hero's like Fred Cook of Port Melbourne and Rex Hunt for Sandringham. However the VFL was already heading towards Sunday football here to tap into the Sunday market. For starters in late 70's, top teams like North and Hawks played at SCG on Sunday so that would have pulled people away from channel 10 VFA footy. There was a couple of games a year up there. Carlton and Essendon played at SCG on a Sunday and finally South Melbourne relocated there to play every second Sunday there. But even before South went up there to make it home channel 7 would compete with channel 10 by having channel 7 have a reserve game of two clubs play at Moorabin or Lake side oval. It would have stolen some audience from channel 10 but mainly of the supporters of the VFL reserve teams. The writing was on wall when Victorian government even allowed VFL to play a few Sunday games at MCG.
By mid 80's the VFA having Sunday all to themselves was over. By then even finals were allowed to be played on Sunday in Melbourne. Add West Coast and Bears to VFL in 1987 and now the whole weekend television for football is the domain of the VFL. Every Sunday channel 7 had a game from Sydney, Perth or Brisbane of Swans, Eagles or Bears playing a club from Victoria up against a VFA game on channel 10.
VFA footy no longer had a niche time slot where fans of VFL clubs would watch VFA footy,
The End.

 

[footyfan1978]

1877 the Vfa was formed.

1897 the vfl was formed (breakaway from former Vfa clubs)

What's your thoughts on the two leagues going head to head from 1897-1994?

Did the Vfa ever have am the upper hand?

No, but at times before and after first world war it seemed the Association thought it could compete with the premier league in the state of the VFL.
It seems like it still had a good following in 1940's. Probably the generations of people of those times were used to having two football comps to follow. But it seems fairly obvious that if you look from the time of 1896 to 1897 seasons what essentially happened is the stronger/better clubs created a premier league and those left in VFA were in essence the division two of football in this state. League football was division one in this state and Association football was division two. Not officially but it is probably how most saw it. There even seemed talk at one point in second decade of century for it all to re-unite as one league with the Association officially become B division. Probably never got serious due to politics and probably world war one took it off the table as a development and when world war one was over it seems Association maybe even saw it as a chance to establish itself again as a strong competition and those in charge of it for some reason thought they could genuinely compete in the football landscape. Certainly if you look through the VFL Football Records that got sold in this era you will find the League was still showing the records of 1870 to early 1920's for their clubs as a continued tally of how the teams finished in order of top four. So at the time it could have easily changed turn of events and VFA re-unite with the League clubs and then VFA seasons from 1897 to 1920's would have been seen as division two and League seasons from 1897 to then as division one and everything before 1897 would have been the seasons before that of all those clubs.

History took a different path though. The VFL eventually created their own reserve grade comp and that lasted until early 1990's.
The VFA also lasted to early 1990's and then both those comps got absorbed into Football Victoria and made into one second tier comp called VSFL.

Oddly enough later on that got renamed again as VFL....

 

[RogersResults]

No, but at times before and after first world war it seemed the Association thought it could compete with the premier league in the state of the VFL.
It seems like it still had a good following in 1940's. Probably the generations of people of those times were used to having two football comps to follow. But it seems fairly obvious that if you look from the time of 1896 to 1897 seasons what essentially happened is the stronger/better clubs created a premier league and those left in VFA were in essence the division two of football in this state. League football was division one in this state and Association football was division two. Not officially but it is probably how most saw it. There even seemed talk at one point in second decade of century for it all to re-unite as one league with the Association officially become B division. Probably never got serious due to politics and probably world war one took it off the table as a development and when world war one was over it seems Association maybe even saw it as a chance to establish itself again as a strong competition and those in charge of it for some reason thought they could genuinely compete in the football landscape. Certainly if you look through the VFL Football Records that got sold in this era you will find the League was still showing the records of 1870 to early 1920's for their clubs as a continued tally of how the teams finished in order of top four. So at the time it could have easily changed turn of events and VFA re-unite with the League clubs and then VFA seasons from 1897 to 1920's would have been seen as division two and League seasons from 1897 to then as division one and everything before 1897 would have been the seasons before that of all those clubs.

History took a different path though. The VFL eventually created their own reserve grade comp and that lasted until early 1990's.
The VFA also lasted to early 1990's and then both those comps got absorbed into Football Victoria and made into one second tier comp called VSFL.

Oddly enough later on that got renamed again as VFL....

"VFL Football Records "

The 'Football Record' began in 1912 edited by George Cathie (of Wilke, Mitchell & Co publishing company) under 'the patronage of the VFL' (which meant for example, it had exclusive rights to publishing player's numbers) . In 1961 Cathie's son Bill retired as editor and was replaced by a VFL staffer. From 1962 it finally became the 'Official Organ of the VFL'.

George Cathie was a pioneer of collating VFL records along with the records of VFL clubs that had been members of the VFA (noting that only clubs that left to form the VFL had won VFA 'premierships' 1877-1896).

A short bio of George Cathie can be found here on page 25 of this free online book:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2oa31jq0ryzpsfn/Classic_ Cats 2019_PDF_version.pdf

 

[Royalbeagle]

"VFL Football Records "

The 'Football Record' began in 1912 edited by George Cathie (of Wilke, Mitchell & Co publishing company) under 'the patronage of the VFL' (which meant for example, it had exclusive rights to publishing player's numbers) . In 1961 Cathie's son Bill retired as editor and was replaced by a VFL staffer. From 1962 it finally became the 'Official Organ of the VFL'.

George Cathie was a pioneer of collating VFL records along with the records of VFL clubs that had been members of the VFA (noting that only clubs that left to form the VFL had won VFA 'premierships' 1877-1896).

A short bio of George Cathie can be found here on page 25 of this free online book:
Classic_ Cats 2019_PDF_version.pdf Cats 2019_PDF_version

WAFL supporter here. Interesting to learn about the great heritage of the VFA. Sad indeed that it capitulated in the shadow of the VFL (AFL). Is there any examples of practice or exhibition games in the 70’s or even 80’s played between clubs from the two competitions?

 

[Todman]

It was once described to me

VFL = inner suburbs

VFA = outer suburbs

 

[killer]

Doubt it
VFA VFL interleague relations weren't good from the mid 60s to the early 80s .

VFA teams turned up in the second NFL night series (1977) after the VFL dropped out


I have a query

How often did VFA teams play at the MCG after 1897?

I did see a reference to a game in the mid 80s
where Mark Jackson was supposed to play in a game
there for Brunswick but was a no show

 

[35Daicos]

Doubt it
VFA VFL interleague relations weren't good from the mid 60s to the early 80s .

VFA teams turned up in the second NFL night series (1977) after the VFL dropped out


I have a query

How often did VFA teams play at the MCG after 1897?

I did see a reference to a game in the mid 80s
where Mark Jackson was supposed to play in a game
there for Brunswick but was a no show

The VFA Project

www.thevfaproject.org

The VFA Project

www.thevfaproject.org

It looks like 6 regular season and 9 finals games were played at the MCG from 1897 onwards:


That Brunswick game was in 1986, and part of a double-header.

 

[killer]

Brunswick appeared there 6 times

 

[Tygrys]

Box Hill - now Box Hill Hawks - VFL
Springvale - now Casey - VFL
Coburg - VFL
Frankston - VFL
Preston - now Northern Blues - VFL
Port Melbourne - VFL
Sandringham - VFL
Werribee - VFL
Williamstown - VFL

Brighton - became Brighton / Caulfield - became Caulfield - folded

Oakleigh - folded

Dandenong - folded

Camberwell - played a season in the VAFA before folding

Kilsyth - now in the EFL

Mordialloc - now in the SFL

Waverley - basically folded, went though a myriad of mergers etc. I think the Waverley Blues in the EFL can probably lay claim to some heritage (many mergers later) - not sure

Brunswick - folded

Geelong West - merged with St Peters, now in GFL

Moorabbin - folded

Northcote - folded

Prahran - VAFA

Sunshine - folded

Yarraville - folded

When looking at these defunct clubs, I have to ask what happened to their cups, pennants, original premiership team photos and what not? The kind of stuff they would have kept in their trophy rooms. Many are as old, if not older in some cases than the present Victorian AFL clubs, and of course no VFA would have meant no VFL. I mean a lot of this stuff would have been seriously historic. Did they simply vanish into private hands?

Apologies if there is a VFA museum out there that I don't know about, but has the AFL made any attempt to collect and preserve any of this. Or is it like the recordings of early radio and tv shows largely lost forever?

 

[killer]

I believe the Australian Football League deny all knowledge and responsibility for it

 

[Bunk Moreland]

When looking at these defunct clubs, I have to ask what happened to their cups, pennants, original premiership team photos and what not? The kind of stuff they would have kept in their trophy rooms. Many are as old, if not older in some cases than the present Victorian AFL clubs, and of course no VFA would have meant no VFL. I mean a lot of this stuff would have been seriously historic. Did they simply vanish into private hands?

Apologies if there is a VFA museum out there that I don't know about, but has the AFL made any attempt to collect and preserve any of this. Or is it like the recordings of early radio and tv shows largely lost forever?

No single answer. Some would be in storage. Some claimed by individuals who would be taking care of it or maybe have it in their garage. Some lost, no doubt. Some people look after their former club’s history and it comes out at reunions etc.

I’m pretty sure Dandenong have a permanent trophy / memorabilia display at Shepley Oval. Obv they’re not there any more, but the Stingrays (NAB League) and Dandenong Cricket Club are.

That’s probably the best idea, really. Clubs fold but their grounds don’t and are usually taken over by somebody else. A corner of the social club where the history of the place can be retained and displayed is a good idea.

Oakleigh - Oakleigh Chargers are there now

Dandenong - Dandenong Stingrays

Brunswick - Brunswick - North Old Boys

Moorabbin - St Kilda training base

Northcote - Northcote Park

Sunshine - being redeveloped as the Bulldogs’ second training ground

Yarraville - Yarraville-Seddon

Camberwell - Old Scotch

Caulfield - Old Haileybury

So all the defunct clubs’ old grounds are being used by current clubs, they haven’t gone anywhere. There’s a space for them.

 

[Tygrys]

No single answer. Some would be in storage. Some claimed by individuals who would be taking care of it or maybe have it in their garage. Some lost, no doubt. Some people look after their former club’s history and it comes out at reunions etc.

I’m pretty sure Dandenong have a permanent trophy / memorabilia display at Shepley Oval. Obv they’re not there any more, but the Stingrays (NAB League) and Dandenong Cricket Club are.

That’s probably the best idea, really. Clubs fold but their grounds don’t and are usually taken over by somebody else. A corner of the social club where the history of the place can be retained and displayed is a good idea.

Oakleigh - Oakleigh Chargers are there now

Dandenong - Dandenong Stingrays

Brunswick - Brunswick - North Old Boys

Moorabbin - St Kilda training base

Northcote - Northcote Park

Sunshine - being redeveloped as the Bulldogs’ second training ground

Yarraville - Yarraville-Seddon

Camberwell - Old Scotch

Caulfield - Old Haileybury

So all the defunct clubs’ old grounds are being used by current clubs, they haven’t gone anywhere. There’s a space for them.

Thanks for the answer. Again I look at the old photos of VFA teams in the early 20th century on line and I think it would be horrible for their historic collections to completely vanish. These clubs were very important to their communities and were followed every bit as intensely as were the breakaway VFL clubs. They deserve to be preserved.

 

[weewilly]

No; they never had the upper hand.
From 1897 they were the leftovers, the clubs that didn't make the Super League called the VFL.
Footscray had to beat Essendon in 1924 to be considered for the comp in 1925.
And it's still conjecture whether they did it fairly, or if people made a lot of money out of the unlikely result.
North tried everything they could, including standing out of footy, and then re-forming to get into the VFL.
As you correctly outline, the 1960s were an era where the VFA went to Sunday games, and more teams in 2 Divisions.
This was to get people to games. And it worked.
I went to a few VFA games in the 70s and 80s and you wouldn't have known the difference between VFL and VFA.
That worked for many years, but only until the VFL started playing on Sundays.
Then the public voted with their feet.

You are wrong the VFA was not that far behind the VFL a lot of the time after the breakaway and had good support with clubs like Footscray,Port Melbourne,North Melbourne and Brunswick getting very good crowds.A VFA GF at the MCG got 48,000 in the early 1940s.

 

[uranium_death]

You are wrong the VFA was not that far behind the VFL a lot of the time after the breakaway and had good support with clubs like Footscray,Port Melbourne,North Melbourne and Brunswick getting very good crowds.A VFA GF at the MCG got 48,000 in the early 1940s.

Yes, the two leagues co-existed, but the VFA never had the upper hand. There is a difference
The VFL was almost always viewed as the superior league. That's why clubs applied to join the VFL from the VFA. The VFL was the premier competition, and clubs wanted to be associated with the strongest league

 

[thequarry]

No single answer. Some would be in storage. Some claimed by individuals who would be taking care of it or maybe have it in their garage. Some lost, no doubt. Some people look after their former club’s history and it comes out at reunions etc.

I’m pretty sure Dandenong have a permanent trophy / memorabilia display at Shepley Oval. Obv they’re not there any more, but the Stingrays (NAB League) and Dandenong Cricket Club are.

That’s probably the best idea, really. Clubs fold but their grounds don’t and are usually taken over by somebody else. A corner of the social club where the history of the place can be retained and displayed is a good idea.

Oakleigh - Oakleigh Chargers are there now

Dandenong - Dandenong Stingrays

Brunswick - Brunswick - North Old Boys

Moorabbin - St Kilda training base

Northcote - Northcote Park

Sunshine - being redeveloped as the Bulldogs’ second training ground

Yarraville - Yarraville-Seddon

Camberwell - Old Scotch

Caulfield - Old Haileybury

So all the defunct clubs’ old grounds are being used by current clubs, they haven’t gone anywhere. There’s a space for them.

Oakleigh Chargers and Dandenong Stingrays have given this a nod over in recent years with VFA heritage jumpers:

 

[killer]

Are there any surviving VFA radio broadcasts from the Gillon era (1950s thru to 1980) ?

 

[Dogs till i die]

A few dedicated VFA history buffs run a Facebook page "VFA Halycon Days" which runs old footage with memorabilia.

 

[Dogs till i die]

What were some of the most popular combinations of supporters?

The strongest links were Port-South Melbourne, Collingwood-Preston, Prahran- Melbourne, Footscray - Williamstown, Geelong - Geelong West, St.Kilda - Sandringham. Richmond - Oakleigh. Strong links with both fans and player exchange.

 

[tandino]

Not withstanding the politics, did the VFA ever play any games at VFL Park?

 

[35Daicos]

Not withstanding the politics, did the VFA ever play any games at VFL Park?

Yes, according to this: The VFA Project

The VFA Project

www.thevfaproject.org

 

[windyhill]

Channel 0.

 

[tandino]

Yes, according to this: The VFA Project
View attachment 1413503

The VFA Project

www.thevfaproject.org

Genuinely surprised.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Genuinely surprised.

That's all of Waverley's home games in their final season in the VFA, 1987. Looks like they cut a deal to use VFL on Sundays for their home games... perhaps an experiment, perhaps Central Reserve was unavailable for whatever reason.

In any case they went bust and into recess a few months after the season.

 

[killer]

Must of cost a packet
Did the Waverley Reds B.Ball team play at Waverley park?