Voss

[JDogg]

Our favourite son.

Where to from here? 2009 he was a 'revelation'. Rookie coach, fresh approach, experienced staff, middle of the road list.

Its now Round 19 2010 and we are playing the Eagles for the wooden spoon.

Is he Tony Shaw v 2.0?

 

[Tim the Toolman]

Is he our Tony Shaw? Good question - is he our Bernie Quinlan, is he our Kevin Bartlett etc... Hopefully we give him another year to find out.

Having said that, on Saturday night after many beers I couldn't but help but call him Voss the Loss rather than Voss the Boss which we had been calling him over the past year!

On the radio yesterday they were saying he should've stayed on that plane to Perth, do the 2-years apprenticeship, the Lions still have the 2-years we need to have and then he was welcomed back with open arms. It is for this reason I hope he gets to see out his contract and can prove next year he's the real deal.

My one dismay is his handling of Fev and not dropping him and showing us the knackers he proved he had on the field?

 

[3KZ is Football]

Voss should rightly be judged harshly for our woeful on field performances this year, but it is what happens between 2010 and 2011 seasons that could possibly break him.

If some of our key personel vote with their feet, opting for early retirement, Gold Coast or the draft, then we are in big trouble and can expect to be simply 'making up the numbers' for many years to come.

 

[Hollow Knight]

About time someone started a Voss thread... don't think I've seen one yet.

 

[frdkng]

Voss definetely deserves another year. Perhaps we have just had a poor season with injuries and some poor lucklustre games from some of the players. But another poor year in 2011 and I will not be that forgiving. If we have a similar result next year than I would want Vossy to leave gracefully as did Leigh Matthews when he resigned after 2009 when the club missed the finals after the poor finish to the year (mind you alot of those games we were up at three quarter time!). I dont think Vossy would like it either if we keep losing games.
I still think that we are better than would we have been displaying on the football field.

 

[dlanod]

I suspect if we're near or at the bottom of the list halfway through 2011 the board may be looking elsewhere. I doubt he's going to be moved on any time before then through, regardless of how many keyboard and/or media warriors demand it.

 

[jackess]

What surprised and disappointed me was that nobody was interviewed for the head coach role. But I got over that when I remembered that the list was rebuilding and that it would be a good time for a coach to learn on the job.

I also never thought that Voss was trading to win a premiership this year and I thought that it would be 2011/12 when the Lions may be a genuine premiership contender if Browny, Black and Power were still contributing well. That being said it would seem that Vossy bit off a little more than he could chew trading for the likes of Buchanan and Raines who surely could have been picked up in the drafts because which other teams would really want them. I don't think that Voss is necessarily a bad coach but he hasn't done much to show that he is a good coach. So hopefully he gets a couple more years to improve and get some decent help from the assistants and repay the faith shown in him by the Lions in hiring a novice to coach.

 

[Slattery_20]

It won't be his coaching, it'll be his list management that makes or breaks him. I've got no doubt he can inspire a team to play pretty well & gets fairly reasonable match-ups.

 

[Josh Wineduck]

Have some faith and give the guy a break, it's his second year.

 

[Forrest Gimp]

Is he our Tony Shaw? Good question - is he our Bernie Quinlan, is he our Kevin Bartlett etc... Hopefully we give him another year to find out.

Having said that, on Saturday night after many beers I couldn't but help but call him Voss the Loss rather than Voss the Boss which we had been calling him over the past year!

On the radio yesterday they were saying he should've stayed on that plane to Perth, do the 2-years apprenticeship, the Lions still have the 2-years we need to have and then he was welcomed back with open arms. It is for this reason I hope he gets to see out his contract and can prove next year he's the real deal.

My one dismay is his handling of Fev and not dropping him and showing us the knackers he proved he had on the field?

We probably would have made him even worse.

 

[Thommo 42]

Tony Shaw never coached a final, so no.

 

[Tomohawkk]

I'd say Voss deserves another 2 years at the Lions, give him some more experienced assistant coaches and sign him in. He did very well in 2009 with a mediocre list, but as he said he overestimated them at the end of 09 and thought by pipping the list with some experience they could win a premiership.

Now that it's been a train wreck I hope he does go with the younger players like Barwood, Cornelius, Rockliff, Polkinghorne and Redden penciled in for EVERY GAME. Don't know why Travis Johnstone is gonna be back in on the weekend but it'll be good to see Ad(ock back in the midst.

 

[notting18]

Anyone who thinks that Voss must cop criticism for how this year has gone must also give him credit for the things that went right last year. He has a 3 year contract and should get the time to prove himself as capable or not capable as an AFL coach.

It was said at the time he was hired but Voss was hired as a rookie coach and we have to accept that he would take some time to develop.

 

[MacMum]

Being who he is, I would expect him to stay out his contract, and beyond hopefully.....The injuries we've had, crippled the team and its results, which in turn IMO has magnified any other teething problems Michael may have been having.... (we knew he was learning on the job)..

We cannot crucify him this year, that would be terribly unfair...... grumblings may be needed next year if things don't improve, but I have faith in him and our young kids coming through that things will improve..(barring more injuries, of course)

....but he must get that list right by getting rid of the dead wood, including big names if necessary..

 

[fitzroy_lions123]

Lets just hope we don't finish at the bottom, because that will be the disappointing thing if it happens.
Vossy had high hopes for the team this season and was looking for a top 4 finish.
People can blame it on injuries and stuff like that, but it just doesn't cut it for me.
In the end our game plan is shocking, we cant hit our targets, we always play backwards which makes it even worse.
We have 2 of the best key forwards, so why don't we just kick it longggg!!
The sad thing about it all is, we have no crumbers (small forwards).
We shouldn't have given away Hooper, he was good at what he did, he kicked goals!
We have no small forward who does anymore.
We rely on Brown and Fev so much, the only way your gonna win games these days is if you have a goal spread.
I'd give Voss one more year, but he has to change the game plan for gods sake.
It just doesn't work for us...

 

[JDogg]

About time someone started a Voss thread... don't think I've seen one yet.

I dont see any other threads here?

What about Dean Laidley. Is it worth pursuing him to help Vossy out? Choco Williams?

He needs some serious guidance. We have made our bed now giving Vossy a 3 year deal but we cant afford another poor year, especially with GC coming in.

The Tigers rejects Rawlings and unfortunately McCrae wont be there next year one would hope.

 

[Hollow Knight]

The Tigers rejects Rawlings and unfortunately McCrae wont be there next year one would hope.

Always good to remember these are real people we are talking about.

I'm all up for making sure we have the right people but I think they deserve more credit than being assessed plainly on being "Tigers rejects".

I've actually been really impressed with McRae's work with the reserves. He seems to be a really effective communicator with the boys at the huddles and they seem to respond to him. There is a good sense of comradery in the ressies that I haven't sensed for a while.

Considering how impressive many of our young bloked have looked when being elevated to the seniors, I think Fly, Bozo and Lynch deserve a bit of credit for their development work.

 

[Snuka]

It won't be his coaching, it'll be his list management that makes or breaks him. I've got no doubt he can inspire a team to play pretty well & gets fairly reasonable match-ups.

Couldn't disagree more...I'd say this boring opinion belongs on the main board, where you can all agree with the short-sighted, small picture Robert Walls/Liam Pickering view.

Bradshaw, Joel MacDonald, Hooper, Henderson, Dalziel (were you aware these were the calibre of 'youth' that we sacrificed), or whatever other blokes we released this year would not have improved the way we have played. It's pretty easy to look at Vossy's trading frenzy this year but here''s a couple of other things that Vossy needs to address before we all scoff smugly at 'crazy Vossy's youth sacrifice':

* Middle aged players who should be peaking have stagnated and not improved. Sherman, Charman, Brennan, Clark, Merrett, Patful, Collier, Adcock, etc are all guys who have either stagnated in their development or gotten worse.
* Inexcusably bad run with injuries and questionable management of injured players
* Decline of the outputs of Black and Power as age catches up with them
* No obvious improvement in the major deficiencies in the player's skill set, like gut running, disposal
* Refusing to give younger guys extended runs in the midfield to let them develop (linked to Black & Power above)
* Inability or refusal to improve our strategies and setup for kick-ins. This has been a problem since the quick kick-ins were introduced. The Lion's never adapted and still don't seem to be getting close to solving that little problem even with a change of coaching staff.
* The constant ommission and then subsequent promotion of T Johnstone. Also was played in the wrong position IMO. Was a quality kick of the ball but was wasted in the backline kicking short passes backwards to the pocket.

I'm sure the astute Lion's posters could add more but IMO, all these things have contributed to our terrible year much more than the recruitments of Fev, Staker, Maguire (all who have improved our side) and Raines, Buchanon, Clarke. The 'youth' that Vossy has supposedly sacrificed is the one area that is actually positive for the Lions.

 

[JDogg]

Always good to remember these are real people we are talking about.

I'm all up for making sure we have the right people but I think they deserve more credit than being assessed plainly on being "Tigers rejects".

I've actually been really impressed with McRae's work with the reserves. He seems to be a really effective communicator with the boys at the huddles and they seem to respond to him. There is a good sense of comradery in the ressies that I haven't sensed for a while.

Considering how impressive many of our young bloked have looked when being elevated to the seniors, I think Fly, Bozo and Lynch deserve a bit of credit for their development work.

What about on game day, the important stuff... Do you think they are cutting it? Have they got the required experience to lend a hand to Vossy?

All good in the ressies, development, communication etc etc but we are here to win games in the seniors arent we?

Major shake up required. If that means we get rid of the ex Richmond gentleman then I definately wont be sad to see them go.

 

[Stocka]

It won't be his coaching, it'll be his list management that makes or breaks him. I've got no doubt he can inspire a team to play pretty well & gets fairly reasonable match-ups.

I'd suggest that it is the list management decisions before Voss's time as coach that are more of a problem.

For instance, take a look at the following consecutive first-round picks that we made throughout the last decade:

2002 - J.Brennan
2003 - L.Spaanderman
2004 - C.Wood
2005 - M.Clark
2006 - M.Leuenberger
2007 - L.Henderson

Not a single, genuine midfielder in that lot. We also went for four straight years using out first round pick on players in the 200cm category! Likewise, only three out of that six are still at the club! Sure, we were able to trade off Wood and Henderson as part of "big deals", but even so, we arguably have not been able to get a great return in order to significantly balance out our team and build the midfield.

There were people on boards such as this one, who at the time of these recruitings, questioned whether or not we were going down the right path. I guess as supporters you inevitably end up trusting those in power and giving them the benefit of the doubt. Hindsight shows that people were probably right in having doubts at the time and that we are now paying for it.

From this, I'd suggest that the lesson is that it is unsustainable to continually expend your first round picks on the same type of player, year after year and that arguably it is crucial to be using your early picks on midfielders more often than not, considering that AFL is largely a midfielder's game these days (and looks set to be into the future).

Our midfield is now about 150 years behind the rest of the competition notwithstanding that the competition has not even been going for that long!

 

[fitzroy_lions123]

Pick 4 or 6 will get us a quality midfielder, but its not a good look to finish 16th after setting our sights for a top 4 finish this season.
I'd be happy with pick 6 anyway.

 

[Stocka]

On top of that, history doesn't look favourably on various other list management decisions and trades that were made earlier in the decade.

For instance, the long-term contracts given to Charman. Trading Wood instead of Charman, particularly right before B.McDonald broke down (which was not exactly unforeseeable).

It is also questionable as to whether or not giving up a first round pick for T.Johnstone was a good move even back at that time. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have got him (I think it was a risk worth taking), but trading him for a first round pick seems to have been a misuse of having such a pick.

We also gave Akermanis up for very little in return. Although I've defended this one in the past based on the reasons behind Akermanis's departure (and the need for another club to pay his salary), the whole deal seems to fit well within a view that we are not great when it comes to getting good returns at the trade table and are too quick to seal the deal (or get caught up in the chase, etc.).

I also think that people forgot or overlooked just how crucial Akermanis was to us actually winning games. We have not had as convincing and as an effective match-winner since Akermanis left and certainly not of his type of player (a quality player playing his role was never gained/developed as a replacement).

Personally, I'd also question what I regard as a Brisbane obsession with having two high-quality key forwards, when it seems to come at the detriment to other areas in our team (when you consider what we've probably been paying our key forwards over the last decade in comparison to other positions around the ground).

 

[Stocka]

I should add, that most, if not all of those problems pre-date Voss's time as coach and that even though he is in his second year, most of the problems I've mentioned are not things that could have been fixed easily during his time as coach so far.

 

[Ceebee]

I should add, that most, if not all of those problems pre-date Voss's time as coach and that even though he is in his second year, most of the problems I've mentioned are not things that could have been fixed easily during his time as coach so far.

Very true, and the turnover of players we have had in the last three or four years doesnt help much either.

 

[maroon and blue]

Very perceptive comments by Snuka. It's interesting if Voss took into account the effect of the introduction of mature players last year on the "mid tier players". Had the mids reached their peak? Were they capable of more? Was it feasible as Voss saw that the addition of a number of mature age players would help us take the final step? Or did the inclusion of these players wreck the fragile team balance that was in place. Particularly for the mid range players. Or did the change in coaching styles from Mathews to Voss highlight the inadequacies of the existing players.