Weirdness. But you may be able to help.

[tribey]

I know a fair few of you here are experienced poker players having seen you post about your experiences, wins, reads, etc as I lurk from behind the grassy knoll - or should that be aquarium glass - so you may be able to explain this, either because you know a lot about the game or because it reminds you of your early days as a player (I hope).

So here's the deal.

Like everyone else who has seen WPT on channel 10 or WSOP on ESPN, I've fancied myself as the next Ivey or Hachem and dabbled online. In hindsight I was ridiculously lucky because of my own ineptitude early on in .25c ring games (see here) and thought I would one day be on my way to Vegas.

Anyway, it didn't pan out that way and I lost a couple of handfuls of 'bankrolls' (if you can call throwing in $20 here and there to almost instantly burn, a 'bankroll') in these games in your typical n00blike fashion.

After swearing off the game 6 months ago because I sucked, the other day I desposited in another $20 - what the hell, procrastinating from honours work rules. Thesis? What thesis.

So here's the deal. As I posted here just recently, I entered one of the $20+2 $18000 Guaranteed tourneys and ended up 24th out of 400-odd people, for a win of $140 or so.

I then crushed a $5+.50 one table sit and go the following day - and returned to thinking I was Phil Gordon minus the recessive Hagrid gene. Big mistake.

Going back to the ring games with my new found confidence (read: arrogance) I contrived to burn half of these winnings in just a couple of sessions - admittedly I lost a whack of chips making bad calls/re-raises, but I also suffered a few unspeakable bad beats with the dominant hand (trips beaten by that lucky bastard chasing that river flush/straight, etc).

Having bragged to all and sundry about my previous bounties, obviously, crestfallen I returned to the tournament scene and decided to play one last $10+1 with 190-odd entrants, swearing that if I was knocked out without making the pay structure I'd get my remaining money put back into my bank account and that would be that. Just another thing I suck at, like wolf whistling and carrying 3 pints at once.

But I ended up finishing 8th and pocketing $78 or so dollars - and didnt see big cards until I was on the verge of being blinded out at the final table, so it wasn't as if I had a sweet run in that regard.

So guys, in essence I'm asking, what is going on here? Why is it my tournament play is infinitely more successful than my atrocious ring game play?

Is it because you're generally more relaxed knowing you can play each hand free of the pressure of losing too much 'real' money?

Is it simply just one of those things or is it in a way common for someone to suck at cash games, but succeed at tournaments?

I'm not sure whether to just keep doing what I'm doing, entering some tourneys here and there and staying the hell away from the cash games, or whether to try and address what might be a fundamental flaw in my game (not paying enough attention to pot-odds? not betting correctly? being unnecessarily spooked by big post-flop bets?) that if fixed might turn me into a half-decent casual earner.

So in closing, sorry for the long-winded rant-a-thon, but thoughts? Hints? Cold realities?

 

[Knowledge]

I don't know where to start because I've never seen you play.

Perhaps you play to tight in ring games. To tight but at the same time to lose.

In ring games you want to mix up your play, raise it up with hands like 8h 9h, 45 sooted. In ring games in early position if you get a hand liek 99 88 77 55 etc, raise build a pot. You don't want to limp because if it's a limped pot and you hit the flop you are not getting paid. You raise build a pot and you hit ur set with the Qk5 flop and you have 55 , you're getting paid 100% of the time.

However if you get AJ and below in a ringame in early position muck, muck so fast you don't even need to think about it twice. Again if you have a big stack and you get Ax sooted then you may want to riase to build a pot, however don't hope to hit that Ace.

QK QJ Q10 K10 J10 in early position without the right odds are all hands you want to avoid 100% of the time.

In tournaments I find , I don't think about odds that much. I only want to be calling a raise with a hand that I would raise with myself. Infact I rarley want to be calling, I want to be the one raising or re-raising.

I also don't think you can judge you're ringame performance on the bankroll you had. Like you want to have 20 buyins minimum to play a game.

Say 25c/50c online. You want to have 1000$ as your BR. Thatway you aren't afraid to get it in with AK preflop or shove on a flushdraw as a semibluff. When you're playing on a limted bankroll you think oh if I shove here I can't afford to miss my flush.

Anyway i dunno I'm tired. Hope it helped.

I for one never really understood how one can be good at tournaments and not cashgames. That's not having a dig at you, but I just figure poker is poker. It's like someone saying I'm good online but not live.

 

[Daytripper]

I'm the same as you dyertribe.
Am a fairly good tournalment player but am a shocking ring game player.

I just find it harder to push guys out of pots in ring games even though I'm giving them bad pot odds most of the time. Its hard to win if you're up against 3 or 4 players after the flop, even if you're in front at the time.

The lower level ring games are hard to beat in my opinion as you will always be playing people who will play any two cards pre-flop hoping to catch someting on the flop (and often they do). I always find it hard to get my head around it.

Whereas in tournalment play, most players play with fairly decent holdings so its easier to get a read of where you are at.

 

[Falchoon]

Same, I'm 10 times the tourney player than I am cash player.

It's a different game. I've virtually given up ring games getting perpetually hammered.

Tourneys I run close to 180% return

This is my cash graph, it is now down to virtually zero profit

I don't use any software, though i do wonder if I've been figured out by software.

 

[Armwarmer]

A huge factor in ring games, which does translate over to small buyin online tournies (with smallish starting stacks) but not the same extent, is patience.

In tournies, when you might start with between 1000 and 3000 chips, with blinds going up relatively fast, when you hit a straight or make a flush, and invest a solid portion of your chips into the pot, often it will never be the incorrect decision to muck your hand to a river push even if the board pairs on the river.

In tournaments, people play recklessly, and it is much easier to play 'correctly'. Decisions are easier to make. If you have AQ, raise before the flop, get called, with a flop of Qc - 7h - 3s, in both deep ring games and small starting stack tournies, it would be correct to fire a decent sized bet into the pot. Let's say you get called here. The turn is a 4c. You fire another bet at the pot, and this time get reraised all in.

This is where tournaments and deep stacked ring games differ. In a tournament, the decision is quite easy. At this point, you may be getting between even money and 2:1 on your call, and it's a decent assumption to make that you're ahead at least 33% of the time here (odds required for a 2:1 call), so you call. Often you'll be up against a weaker queen, a flush draw, a desperate AK, sometimes a pair like jacks or tens, gambling against the possibility of you having the queen. Sometimes you will be beat.

In a ring game, however, things change dramatically. When stacks are deeper, and blinds aren't increasing, so there is no sense or urgency or need for your opponents to make moves on you, this raise will be, on most occasions, depending on your opponent, much harder to call.

Top pair is a hand that can't take much heat in a deep stacked environment. You could be up against a flopped set, two pair, possibly even a straight if someone is playing 5-6 (which becomes more and more possible the deeper you play, thus increasing implied odds).

So basically, you must be alot more willing to lay hands down in ring games, well at least what are percieved as big hands by tournament standards, even on flops which seem favourable.

The main money makers in ring games aren't big pairs like Aces or Kings. If you can get it all in with Aces preflop against someone, most likely they have two kings or queens, and that's bad luck for them. But just as often the reverse will occur when you get stung holding two kings against aces. What makes you good money are medium pocket pairs and suited connectors that can net you a big return if you hit the right flop. Whenever I win big pots playing ring games, it's when I hit a set or flop a big combo draw against an overpair who is reluctant to give it up.

So basically, patience is the key in ring games.

 

[Ricketts]

I for one never really understood how one can be good at tournaments and not cashgames. That's not having a dig at you, but I just figure poker is poker. It's like someone saying I'm good online but not live.

You've never seen me play.

I suck in tournaments and i suck live.

My god you don't wanna know how much i suck in live tournaments!

 

[tribey]

Thanks to all. You've given me much food for thought.

Falchoon - it heartens me in a way to see that you of all people have a similar tale. Obviously the tournament yay/cash game nay phenomenon isn't limited to beginners.

 

[red+black]

One need only look at James Obst's stats (Andy McLeod on PokerStars).

Absolute tourney Wunderkind. Absolute ring game fish.

BTW, James is like 17/18 and from Adelaide with online tourney winnings of something like 500k!

 

[Daytripper]

One need only look at James Obst's stats (Andy McLeod on PokerStars).

Absolute tourney Wunderkind. Absolute ring game fish.

BTW, James is like 17/18 and from Adelaide with online tourney winnings of something like 500k!

I've seen him a few times on Pokerstars.

Have you seen that post by Dynasty on the 2+2 forums about turning pro ?
Has some relevance to this topic (and many others).

 

[Falchoon]

Thanks to all. You've given me much food for thought.

Falchoon - it heartens me in a way to see that you of all people have a similar tale. Obviously the tournament yay/cash game nay phenomenon isn't limited to beginners.

since may last year

Tourney + $3,761.75
SitnG0 + $674.60
Cash - $440.97

 

[kolchak]

It's simple.

I used to suffer from going from 1 form of the game (sngs & multis) to ring games. It took me a while to adjust.

Ring games are simple and if you play to an exact strict way, then you'll make profits.

My way in ring games.

Never limp into a pot unless its a value call, atleast 2 other people in the hand, always raise when you decide to play a hand, if the pots allready been raised then I only call with pockets, otherwise fold or re-raise. Raise only needs to be 3 X BB (AA or 67 suited, no diff), unless there are limpers.


Tornys are a lot more fun and require skill, so your probably thinking to much in ring games, keep it very simple.

 

[Knowledge]

lol how does a ring game not require skill?
Tourney is like hrm AQ, ok all in lets race.

 

[kolchak]

lol how does a ring game not require skill?
Tourney is like hrm AQ, ok all in lets race.

I dunno, but I'm like a droid playing ring games, I hardly think. It only gets like that with a few players left. And your probably allready in the money.