What can we do for a CHF this year?

[gbatman]

I've been saying it for ages. Cloke's not good enough. Too slow, poor hands, too soft, no turning circle or agility, no defencive pressure and not all that smart. He doesn't perform against good sides. Honestly we need a big bloke who can take a grab and run and chase. We can not win a flag with Cloke in our side.

So here are my solutions to finding that second tall forward.

1. Move Kreuzer to CHF. Bring in Hampson and use Hammer as number 1 ruckman. Unfortunatly Warnock got injured and Robbie would have allowed Kreuzer to play forward this year.

2. Bring in Hartlett to play CHB. Hartlett at CHB will allow Waite to go forward. Harts has been playing good consistant footy at CHB in the VFL and has all the physical attributes to play there as well as having a long penetrating kick which is a great thing to have especially with zones. Having Harts at CHB will fix some other problems we have too.

3. Bring in Hartlett for Cloke and play Hartlett forward.

4. Bring in Austin for Cloke. All reports Austin played well forward but we will need to see more.

My choice would be a combination of option 1 and 2. I would like to see Hartlett in to play CHB and allow Waite in the forward line as we need a player who can play tall and small like Jarrad can.
I would also like to see Setanta take more of the rucking duties and allow Kreuzer to spend time forward. I say Setanta because I am not sure about bringing in Hampson yet. Perhaps alternate Kreuzer and O'hAilpin between the forward line and ruck. Fevola, Waite and kreuzer/O'hAilpin would be dangerous. 3 big blokes who can take big grabs and really run and gather ground level footy aswell. Match up on that opposition! Put extra numbers on Fevola at your own peril in that forward line I recon.

Does any one have any other ideas on what to do in reguards to moving Cloke on and getting our forward line structure set up right?

 

[BlueSnake]

Well on that note, I have to ask, how quick is Austin?

Quicker than Cloke surely? Though that wouldn't be hard...

 

[murphbf08]

I've been saying it for ages. Cloke's not good enough. Too slow, poor hands, too soft, no turning circle or agility, no defencive pressure and not all that smart. He doesn't perform against good sides. Honestly we need a big bloke who can take a grab and run and chase. We can not win a flag with Cloke in our side.

So here are my solutions to finding that second tall forward.

1. Move Kreuzer to CHF. Bring in Hampson and use Hammer as number 1 ruckman. Unfortunatly Warnock got injured and Robbie would have allowed Kreuzer to play forward this year.

2. Bring in Hartlett to play CHB. Hartlett at CHB will allow Waite to go forward. Harts has been playing good consistant footy at CHB in the VFL and has all the physical attributes to play there as well as having a long penetrating kick which is a great thing to have especially with zones. Having Harts at CHB will fix some other problems we have too.

3. Bring in Hartlett for Cloke and play Hartlett forward.

4. Bring in Austin for Cloke. All reports Austin played well forward but we will need to see more.

My choice would be a combination of option 1 and 2. I would like to see Hartlett in to play CHB and allow Waite in the forward line as we need a player who can play tall and small like Jarrad can.
I would also like to see Setanta take more of the rucking duties and allow Kreuzer to spend time forward. Perhaps alternate Kreuzer and O'hAilpin between the forward line and ruck. Fevola, Waite and kreuzer/O'hAilpin would be dangerous. 3 big blokes who can take big grabs and really run and gather ground level footy aswell. Match up on that opposition! Put extra numbers on Fevola at your own peril in that forward line I recon.

Does any one have any other ideas on what to do in reguards to moving Cloke on and getting our forward line structure set up right?

yeah selection will be interseting this week , thing is cloke played really well last week but this week he was hopeless so i'd think he would stay in, i just think we are one big backman short, if hartlett did come in it would be very handy but is he up to it?

 

[gbatman]

Cloke played pretty well when we were dominating against a midget defence (Dogs). Has he ever played well against a good team? The very best you can expect to get out of Cloke is 3 goals. Surely Waite or Kreuzer can kick 3 or more goals as a forward as well as chase and apply forward pressure which Cloke doesn't do. Kreuzer is as hard as nails! Cloke hasn't layed a bump since he nailed an unaware Cousins behind play in round 1.

 

[K.Simpson]

2. Bring in Hartlett to play CHB. Hartlett at CHB will allow Waite to go forward. Harts has been playing good consistant footy at CHB in the VFL and has all the physical attributes to play there as well as having a long penetrating kick which is a great thing to have especially with zones. Having Harts at CHB will fix some other problems we have too.

Hartlett to CHB and Waite forward freeing up Thornton to play the role where he will be of best value to us, the roaming loose man.

 

[gbatman]

B: Thornton Jamison Joseph
HB: Armfield Hartlett Bower
C: Simpson Judd Scotland
HF: Wiggins Kreuzer Stevens
F: Betts Fevola Waite
OB: O'hAilpin Murphy Gibbs
IC: Grigg Carrazzo Houlihan Hadley
EM: Browne Austin Russell

I can't decide between Hampson and O'hAilpin! I guess Jacobs could be cinsidered here too.

This is my best side in terms of who I believe can play and for balance. The bold are the key changes from the current side.

To win games/finals we need to change a few things:
1. Waite and Thornton to never play key position, ever!
2. No Cloke, no Bentley.
3. Jammo to play at full back.
4. A genuine CHB, Hartlett would be best but If he fails then Bower is the man.
5. A forward who plays small and tall = Waite.
6. Another quality small forward to play along side Betts. Perhaps Stevens to spend more time there?

 

[len_jet]

if you look at hawthorn, geelong and st kildas set up's it seems that they structure themselves around "twin towers" and then hungry small crumbing forwards... but they at no stage maintain a normal structure... with buddy and roughy running all over the shop given their engines, kosi usually stays home and reiwodlt takes a trip up the ground and geelongs structure is to have both stay home at all stages in mooney and atm hawkins.

clearly we have fev... kreuzer is an obvious choice but then we serious lack in the ruck but also give up a 4th mid fielder given the way he plays...

so who is our second tower? Cloke isnt working... Waite is too valuable down back... maybe austin... maybe (but definately not) hartlett... maybe fisher but he is rather short... the irish man is too tactically stupid to do it...

maybe we need to bring in hampson and just let him and cloke share the ruck...

either way the answer is not obvious at the moment. One thing that is, we really missed the spark of someone like robinson on the weekend... that intensity and sheer will that he possesses to constantly chase and do the 1%ers was sorely missed yesterday and is quite a valuable trait in a player... I would like to see robinson and yarran given a go just to bolster our ability to chase and provide plenty more forward pressure at the expense of russell and bentley... cloke is a big body that we need at the moment, unfortunately, but with jacobs on the mend his time is limited...

 

[gbatman]

I am seeing a lot of clubs get success by having 1 ruckman and resting him with 1 utility. Hampson could nearly ruck all day he's such a good athlete. If we bring in another ruckman we need to get rid of Cloke IMO because we would be a small down and lose our run.

Hammer perhaps could do the majority of the ruck work and Setanta could relieve him by perhaps rucking at the last 5-8 minutes of every quarter. We cant have a ruckman who is a liability if played elsewhere like Cloke is as a forward and as a number 1 ruckman. Cloke is an alright part time ruckman but why pick a bloke to play 20 minutes of ok footy in the ruck and the rest bad footy up forward or benched?

 

[parrot]

I've been saying it for ages. Cloke's not good enough. Too slow, poor hands, too soft, no turning circle or agility, no defencive pressure and not all that smart. He doesn't perform against good sides. Honestly we need a big bloke who can take a grab and run and chase. We can not win a flag with Cloke in our side.

So here are my solutions to finding that second tall forward.

1. Move Kreuzer to CHF. Bring in Hampson and use Hammer as number 1 ruckman. Unfortunatly Warnock got injured and Robbie would have allowed Kreuzer to play forward this year.

2. Bring in Hartlett to play CHB. Hartlett at CHB will allow Waite to go forward. Harts has been playing good consistant footy at CHB in the VFL and has all the physical attributes to play there as well as having a long penetrating kick which is a great thing to have especially with zones. Having Harts at CHB will fix some other problems we have too.

3. Bring in Hartlett for Cloke and play Hartlett forward.

4. Bring in Austin for Cloke. All reports Austin played well forward but we will need to see more......

A very timely thread. Was thinking along similar lines. However I think Kruezer is just too good to be a one position player i.e. a CHF. Watched yesterday's game closely - the guy is a clearance machine. He has improved his leap and centre tap work out of sight. By the end of the game, the Hawks rucks had given up on the tap, and were just trying to jump into him. He's also got a freakish ability to get to the drop of the ball. He's now starting to do one-handed pickups and bursting out of the middle like a small midfielder. He hit Fev lace-out in the last doing this. I must admit I didn't realize how good Kruezer was when we got him.

So the question of CHF. Tricky, because the role of a CHF has changed. You just have to be mobile. Cloke ain't and he'll always struggle against top-4 opposition. JK had similar issues actually. Austin is a player I'd like to see at CHF. He's an excellent CHF size, and pretty good in front of goal in a few Bullants games at least. His defensive training wil help him apply the all-important defensive pressure needed at this level. He's a great athlete and will be fine once the ball hits the ground. Hartlett might be a tall option in the backline. The guy has had a shocking run with injuries, and he needs a clearly defined role to get his confidence back. Played a few games in a NAB series at CHB a few years back - did a decent job on Nathan Ablett from memory. So Austin at CHF and Hartlett as a backup tall defender. Hampson is another forward option - wouldn't be too disappointed if he replaces Setanta in the 2nd ruck/tall forward role just to see how he goes.

 

[Dogmat]

Ideally, Kreuzer would be the best option as the second key forward

He has a great set of hands, speed and the smarts ... and also a pretty good kick

However, he is developing into quite the ruckman and we need him in the middle, more than we need him up forward. His value in the clearances from stoppages was pretty onvious on the weekend and there is no point having him forward if he ball never reaches there

I'd use him up forward whenever the ruck combination can hold their own without him

I am not sure if Cloke is part of that ruck combination. Its the third time Hawthorn have looked to expose him and when the better teams play us on their terms, they exploit him everytime

He was unable to detract incoming ball from Fev ... and he couldn't get his hands on any of the pack contests. His effort against Lewis on the wing late in the game cost us the game IMO

Hartlett is a player ... just hasn't been able to get the breaks ... time to throw him in the deep end ... give him 2 or 3 games ... if he shows anything, persevere ... if not, he has had enough time ... I like him up forward, but it will be a big task to expect this guy just to come in and make an impact at CHF ... the hardest position on the ground ... so maybe play him in the backline to give him some sort of chance proving his worth

I like the small lead up forwards such as Wiggins, even Russell leads up well (what he does afterwards is another debate) ... I see the second key forwards role staying home for the kick bombed long after deciding against a Fev lead or when you just need a get out clause with a long kick forward. Can Fisher, Austin or Hartlett play this role? I hesitantly put Fisher in this list as his second efforts have been there for mine. Maybe he might be hungrier now that he has lost his spot? He is definitely a better pack mark and more smart and agile than Cloke ... kicking not so much

Haven't seen anything to suggest Austin could fulfill that role this year and the guy I think can do the role well is injured with a bung shoulder ... Walker ... keeping him on the park and firing will be key to us latter in the year and the upcoming years ...

Long term ... Warnock fulfills half the potential expected from him by the coaching staff ... Sentanta, Jacobs or Hampson provide a suitable back-up ... and Kreuzer can be the second ruckman up whenever he feels like and a more perminent second key ruckman ...

Cloke will struggle to cut the mustard as both a ruckman or key forward

 

[Bluebear]

Oh yes........definately move Kreuzer to CHF.

He is such as waste in the ruck.

Hampson could cover him easily.

Hartlett to CHB for the year. He only played there once in the seniors.....and sure....he got towelled up by NEWTON of the Dees......but that was probably not representative of his defensive skills......and he'll probably prove that his hammies are fine.

Waite should go forward. Wasted down back.

Couldn't agree more that Cloke has never done anything in the forward line against big teams. Of the ........what........6 or 7 games he has actually played there.

Pathetic. Bring back Bryan.



Not.

 

[Ryan Dixon Webb]

Hammer perhaps could do the majority of the ruck work and Setanta could relieve him?

 

[AlecDuncan]

The loss of Jacobs, and also Warnock has unbalanced our side. We're a genuine ruckman short. Special K is still learning the craft (admirably), Cloke has limited ability and Setanta will never be a ruckman.

That's forced us to fudge it with Kruezer, Cloke and Setanta sharing ruck duties, with the last pair rotating at CHF. Cloke and Setanta are not rucks, and they're not genuine CHFs either. Setanta is a natural key defender and a difficult-to-match second forward, but CHF is a whole 'nutha deal.

Adding more talls will only unbalance the side further. Taking Matty out of the ruck will rob us at centre bounces where he's been pretty good. Wiggins has been doing the work of a Ryan O'Keefe-style CHF, and until this weekend doing it grandly. If he'd been on-song, that would have been enough to get us over the line comfortably.

Most of us knew CHF would be a problem as soon as draft week was done. There's not much to do about it now except persevere and put the work into our existing talls and plan to trade our way into a CHF. Just don't expect any miracles.

 

[JustKreuzin]

I think cloke is just there for structure at the moment and i think he won't be in the best 22 once we draft a chf. I was unsure as to why we didn't grab a Kpp fwd in the draft but who knows. I would love to see thornton go fwd, just for the fun of it all.

 

[thylacine60]

advertise?

 

[gbatman]

Yeah Cloke is our Scott Lucas, a decoy at best who looks great when we are going well. We need a bloke who, even if they are a decoy, can contribute more to the side than Cloke does and not be a liability. IMO the sides we will have to beat in finals will exploit Cloke. At least our other options can run. Kreuzer is great at ground level, that would be used quite well in our forward 50. For example round 1 where Kreuzer was at FF and picked up a ground level ball hand passed to gibbs for a goal...

If you don't try Hammer in the ruck and don't try Harts at CHB you'll never know how good they can be this year. Lets just hope our side can still evolve.

 

[BlueYoss]

Oh yes........definately move Kreuzer to CHF.

He is such as waste in the ruck.

Hampson could cover him easily.

Hartlett to CHB for the year. He only played there once in the seniors.....and sure....he got towelled up by NEWTON of the Dees......but that was probably not representative of his defensive skills......and he'll probably prove that his hammies are fine.

Waite should go forward. Wasted down back.

Couldn't agree more that Cloke has never done anything in the forward line against big teams. Of the ........what........6 or 7 games he has actually played there.

Pathetic. Bring back Bryan.



Not.

No argument on Austin at CHF?

Cloke and Setanta are not rucks, and they're not genuine CHFs either. Setanta is a natural key defender and a difficult-to-match second forward, but CHF is a whole 'nutha deal.

Exactly.