NO TROLLS What is the actual case against COVID Vaccination?

[theyellowsash]

I kind of agree and don't want to take this thread of topic.

But I do think rather than arrogant they are rebelling (in the many forms) against authority.. And the easiest way to rebel is

'I know what best for me'

(overly simplistic generalisation) which can come across as arrogant.

So I think we agree without establishing the initial psychological condition. Anyway this isnt the appropriate thread.

When people go at 70 in a school zone, we don't look at that as some kind of anti authoritarian rebel. We look at them as a selfish arrogant dickhead.

When some hippy/zealot treats their kids cancer with onion juice or prayer, we look on them as neglectful anti science loonies. As we do the people who attacked 5g towers and workers well before covid.

When people wave nazi flags and attack people, we call them genocidal extremists. Especially when they're carrying around a gallows and staging mock executions.

And so on.

I'm sure there are some people resisting the vaccine as a result of some trauma growing up, people who have escaped regimes for example. However this undoubtedly makes up the minority of antivaxxers.

 

[Home Alone]

When people go at 70 in a school zone, we don't look at that as some kind of anti authoritarian rebel. We look at them as a selfish arrogant dickhead.

When some hippy/zealot treats their kids cancer with onion juice or prayer, we look on them as neglectful anti science loonies. As we do the people who attacked 5g towers and workers well before covid.

When people wave nazi flags and attack people, we call them genocidal extremists. Especially when they're carrying around a gallows and staging mock executions.

And so on.

I'm sure there are some people resisting the vaccine as a result of some trauma growing up, people who have escaped regimes for example. However this undoubtedly makes up the minority of antivaxxers.

Yes. Yes and yes.

I am not disagreeing any of that and i am not going to argue for the anti vaxers (as I am quite happy with the current rules in Victoria).. But my simple view is that the anti vaxers have never responded well to authority. And there will be multiple instances in their lifes where they behave the same way to authority

Sorry. I do know that this is a thread for facts rather opinion.

 

[theyellowsash]

Yes. Yes and yes.

I am not disagreeing any of that and i am not going to argue for the anti vaxers (as I am quite happy with the current rules in Victoria).. But my simple view is that the anti vaxers have never responded well to authority. And there will be multiple instances in their lifes where they behave the same way to authority

Sorry. I do know that this is a thread for facts rather opinion.

Try this thread if you want a place to discuss

Mandatory Vaccinations And Medical Exemptions

I find it a bit bizarre that countries that are experiencing omicron are going into lockdowns and NSW has eliminated every control measure including masks I would have thought a more conservative approach would be more prudent until we see how things play out but conservative governments aren’t...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Yes. Yes and yes.

I am not disagreeing any of that and i am not going to argue for the anti vaxers (as I am quite happy with the current rules in Victoria).. But my simple view is that the anti vaxers have never responded well to authority. And there will be multiple instances in their lifes where they behave the same way to authority

Sorry. I do know that this is a thread for facts rather opinion.

I read this on LinkedIn, and firmly believe that this is why anti-vaxers, freedom fighters, truth seekers, QAnon'ers, flat Earthers etc. exist and get rusted on:

The hallmark of an open mind:
Not letting your ideas become your identity.

If you define yourself by your opinions, questioning them is a threat to your integrity.


It's no longer about the cause, or even the truth. It's not about the Vax, or Dan Andrews. Once this becomes their identity, they're not letting go. They finally have something to be part of, and an identity. To change their minds about this stuff would be to lose what they feel has become their identity.

 

[theyellowsash]

Are you willing to apply that same thinking to yourself ? If information and data came out suggesting other forms of early treatments viability would you be open to that ? Many people on here seemingly appear to barrack for the virus and and not the case for ending the pandemic.

I would think those who have taken the vaccine would be more prone to the exact thinking that you espouse in the above post, as they have willingly participated in a medical procedure, they have actually made this a physical part of their identity, not only a mental one.

Doctors are starting to question the politicization of the data and research now, that’s when we are starting down a slippery slope.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

government officials (from just 1 country) quit and start making youtube videos.

sounds legit. quick, bin all the vaccines!

 

[Malifice]

Just like clockwork. Proving my point. Who is more invested ? What do you disagree with in the “YouTube “ vid ? You can’t seriously be thinking this whole situation hasn’t been politicised?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Assuming it has been politicized, that door swing both ways. Right wing governments, parties and agitators downplaying the severity of the virus in an effort to keep their economies going at the behest of wealthy corporate interests and to the detriment of the people that are dying, as opposed to Left wing governments, parties and agitators seeking to get as many people vaccinated as possible, including with mandatory vaccine requirements, in what can be described as an overreach.

How does that affect the peer reviewed scientific facts about the virus and how serious it is, and the safety and benefits of vaccination?

And how does it differ from Climate change (where again, the Right ignore the science at the behest of wealthy polluters and the economy, and to the detriment of the people that live on the planet, and the Left seek to address it however possible, with emissions reduction and carbon taxes and mandatory renewables etc)?

Who is listening to the science here? The Left or the Right?

 

[Forward Press]

I'd rather this thread is for constructive discussion of anti vaccine arguments, and not a secondary home for the Conspiracies posters.

 

[Chief]

I'd rather this thread is for constructive discussion of anti vaccine arguments, and not a secondary home for the Conspiracies posters.

Take your pro-non-ionising radiation s**t to Reddit!11!q111

 

[John Who]

I don’t think there is any specific study that concludes Covid vaccination is pointless or more harmful than the Covid virus itself. Rather, the people who aren’t getting vaccinated, as far as I can tell, are 2 main groups:
1. Adamant they will NEVER get the jab.
2. Not vaxxed as yet, because they’re still hesitant in making an informed decision. This group may decide to do it eventually but need more supportive evidence of risks vs benefits.

Regarding the first group from the above, I’ve experienced many different types having dealt firsthand some of those that are almost certainly never going to get the jab. Subgroups:
1. Needlephobic, they won’t get jabbed for any form of vaccination, even if they fully understand the benefits.
2. Paranoid beliefs - psychiatric realm of people who are always questioning government intentions and whether they’re constantly being monitored.
3. Antisocial/narcissistic personality types - don’t like being told what to do, wanting to do things on their own terms; paradoxically, by making vaccination mandatory, they’re likely to refuse the jab even more.
4. Genuine medical concerns or past severe reactions to flu vaccinations.

There might be more subgroups to the above. The takehome message is that people aren’t simply “vaxxed” and “nonvaxxed”, and shouldn’t be simplified as “smart group” and “dumb group”. There’s a lot more nuance to this topic than meets the eye.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I agree John Who there are more groups than just vaxed and antivaxers.

There are many questions going on in my head, such as:
* why you need two shots to achieve an 80-90% effective rate. I no of no other vaccine that does.
* why are boosters required so soon afterwards if these treatments are effective.
* why do these treatments not provide immunity
* why do these treatments not stop those who have taken them from passing on the virus
* why are case numbers more important than actual hospitalization numbers
* why are medical personal with years of experience and access to more information than the general public refusing to take these treatments.
* why is there only one narrative being put out from the Governments and the media, where is the objectiveness of their message, why have they gone down the 'our way or the highway' conversation. Why are they not listening to the science of alternatives
* why are healthy athletic personal who are double vaxed now having heart health issues.

I'm no expert, but as far as I'm aware all of the above has already been answered or is just not true.


* why you need two shots to achieve an 80-90% effective rate. I no of no other vaccine that does.

Other vaccines require do require multiple doses.

* why are boosters required so soon afterwards if these treatments are effective.

They mimic the body's natural immunity. Natural immunity to COVID diseases wanes over time, and COVID diseases usually mutate also. So the body's immune system 'forgets' COVID over time. Or, if it mutates, it doesn't recognise it at all.

Vaccines are safe, and just initiate the body's natural immune response. I'm surprised that Vax skeptics are posing the question as to why this Vax isn't doing something more 'unnatural'?? A Vax or treatment that does more than this, would be more concerning to me to be honest.

Personally, this is why this Vax doesn't frighten me or concern me - because it's not doing anything other than what we know is safe.

* why do these treatments not provide immunity

See above. They do provide protection against catching it, but it reduces over time. Same as the body's natural response.

* why do these treatments not stop those who have taken them from passing on the virus

They do, to an extent. See above.

* why are case numbers more important than actual hospitalization numbers

They're not. For people that tell everyone to stop listening to the media, the COVID deniers and anti-vaxers sure listen to the media alot.

Case numbers were everything when we were going for COVID 0 and there was no vaccine. But once that changed, numbers were mostly irrelevant to the average punter, and only relevant to those doing the risk assessments.

* why are medical personal with years of experience and access to more information than the general public refusing to take these treatments.

What information do they have access to? The medical professionals that I know, generally get the same data that we all do?
The difference is that they know how to interpret it, and analyse in it.

There are scientists and doctors that are flat earthers. There are doctors that believe that Adam and Eve started humanity. There are scientists that believe that God will sort out climate change. There are doctors that charge people for cancer treatments that involve sunlight, goji berries and positive thinking.
One of Trump's top doctors believes that sex with the devil is what causes ovarian cancer.

I think your question is misleading.

Ambos and nurses are not relevant, as they don't have the type of medical or scientific training to be considered relevant to this point.

FWIW, even the doctors I know that oppose lockdowns and Dan Andrews and mandatory Vax (because they're Liberal voters) all support the Vax. I haven't come across a single one that doesn't.

If there are 1000 "medical personal with years of experience and access to more information than the general public" and 999 strongly support the Vax, aside from possibly hearing him or her out - why would we really care what the 1 thinks?

* why is there only one narrative being put out from the Governments and the media, where is the objectiveness of their message, why have they gone down the 'our way or the highway' conversation. Why are they not listening to the science of alternatives

Again, stop following the media.

Secondly, the government has, as far as I'm aware, considered all alternatives.
Different countries have tried different approaches to lockdowns, restrictions, treatments and vaccines. Our government has landed on what they feel is right (from a political, economic and health perspective).

Studies continue into treatment and vaccine development, and social response is evolving.
I know people don't agree with every decision, but I don't agree that many factors and options haven't been considered throughout.
NSW said no lockdowns, then locked down as things evolved. They said no masks, then changed their mind as things evolved.


* why are healthy athletic personal who are double vaxed now having heart health issues.

This is just anti-vax nonsense that is not true.


That list of questions just seems to suggest a giant, world-wide conspiracy from governments of all persuasion, big pharma, big business, countries of all religions - to get us all to take a vaccine that doesn't do anything?
I don't really understand what you're suggesting?

 

[Rob]

Current ACT figures:

98.5% 12+ fully vaccinated
1479 active cases
ZERO in ICU.

This should be what the media are shouting from the rooftops. But nah, stories about more restrictions being needed get more clicks.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Current ACT figures:

98.5% 12+ fully vaccinated
1479 active cases
ZERO in ICU.

This should be what the media are shouting from the rooftops. But nah, stories about more restrictions being needed get more clicks.

The latest data from Victoria also shows zero double vaxxed in ICU

3,013,866 Coronavirus Cases and 1,432 Active in Victoria - COVID Live

Live tracking of coronavirus cases, active, tests, deaths, ICU, hospitalisations and vaccinations in Victoria

covidlive.com.au

 

[Chief]

He works in "weight management" on the Gold Coast?

GPs (General Practitioners) with special interest Weight Management in Sanctuary Cove QLD 4212

Healthshare is Australia's fastest growing health website providing Australians with unique access to Australian health care practitioners.

www.healthshare.com.au

 

[Lebbo73]

Ignorant. Just plain ignorant. Is this a fake?

It isn’t fake. I’m just posting the views of a doctor with no opinion attached. Ignorant could be someone that’s prepared to dismiss the expert opinion of a medical professional in a field he’s more qualified to comment about.

 

[Chief]

He doesn't seem to have any public health credentials, and seems to hold beliefs in complete disagreement with the observed facts.

Sounds like he is full of s**t to me. How did he end up in weight management on the Gold Coast? He's whinging that he could be "of service" but for the third dose. What's his view on the hepatitis vaccine he had to have so he could work as a doctor?

 

[theyellowsash]

Paper.li

Paper.li - The service has been sunset on 20 April 2023

cmnnews.org

Letter from a Doctor to a Health Minister

To:
The Minister of Health
State Government
Queensland, Australia


Dear Ms D’Ath,


I retired from clinical practice on 15 December 2021.


My family and some of my colleagues have commented “Well, it’s time you took a break! After all you have three university degrees, two fellowships and three licentiates and have been in full-time practice for 41 years - working as a rural generalist on 4 continents, predominantly in remote locations in third-world countries, with the last 13 years serving the rural communities in Australia, latterly as a locum Senior Medical Officer in southeast Queensland, always putting your patients and community ahead of your family and your social life. It’s about time you had a rest.”


Perhaps they are right, but the question is – am I ready to retire? After all, I am only 63, and feel I probably have a few years left in me to effectively serve the people of Queensland.


So, why am I retiring, then? Because of your non-evidence-based vaccine mandate for health workers. Apparently, at midnight on the 14 December 2021, I was meant to turn into a mutant blob of super-spreading coronavirus slime that would be a terrible threat to my colleagues and patients. You may be relieved to hear that that did not happen. In fact, I have never felt healthier.
It has been interesting to see the rise of evidence-based medicine during my career, something we have all embraced and accepted as the correct and safest way to manage healthcare issues, whether in the individual patient, or at the population level. But many of us have stood mouths-agape to see the principles of evidence-base being thrown into the garbage as politicians have disastrously taken on the role of managing health care during the current coronavirus problem.
But I would like to thank you for the opportunity to retire a little earlier than planned. It will give me the opportunity to spend more time with my wife and my family, and to catch up on my long-neglected hobbies of cycling, bushwalking, bird watching and photography – unless you plan to slap a QR code on the tail feathers of every rainbow lorikeet in the state? Oops, shouldn’t have given you the idea.


And as I sit quietly on one of Queensland’s many beautiful beaches, I will smile to myself knowing with certainty that you too will soon be forced to retire.


How do I know this? Well, Queenslanders may have been scared, bullied, coerced and, yes, forced into lining up to receive their COVID shots, but they are not stupid. As the news of the rapid crumbling of the pillars of coronavirus control that your policies have forced onto them continue to seep past the firewall of our local media and into the general population, they will realise that they have been seriously duped. I can only pray that their reaction will be one of peaceful protest, but this protest will ultimately be voiced at the polling stations. I don’t know what you did before you went into politics, but I hope you were better at it than you have been at “ministering” our health.


Those “pillars of coronavirus control”? Masking, social distancing, mass screening of asymptomatic people with a PCR test run at a cycle threshold that is way too high, QR codes, hand sanitisers, lockdowns, Perspex partitions, not to mention the alleged “vaccine,” have long been known to not stop the spread of a coronavirus, and the evidence continues to accumulate daily, both through proper journal-published studies, but also just by looking at world experience as the virus continues to thrive. And all we hear is the same on-repeat demands from you and your experts – more masks, more lockdowns, more social distancing, and why not have another dose of our “vaccine” – surely it will work this time? I don’t think so – coronaviruses are experts at adapting to their environment, and they don’t even have a frontal lobe.


The “Vaccine.” Surely by now you are getting embarrassed trying to spin this narrative? No doubt you have heard the old joke that you can always tell when a politician is lying because their lips move? Well, the too-oft repeated Anna/Yvette/Steve/Jeanette-then-Peter-now-John mantra of “Get the vaccine – it’s safe, effective and free!” must be a candidate for the Guinness Book for the most lies contained in one short sentence! Let’s dissect it:
1. “Vaccine” – time to call it what it really is – an experimental gene-based therapy that had to be labelled as a “vaccine” in order to receive emergency use authorisation.
2. “Safe” – a quick look at our own TGA website should be enough to convince you otherwise. But if it isn’t enough, try the US VAERS, The UK’s Yellow Card system and their Office of National Statistics, or the EUs EUDRAVigilance and EuroMOMO. Not to mention the surge of unexplained deaths being reported world-wide amongst vaccinated people.
I have read the “Vaccination Consent” form that people are given to read and sign at your vaccination centres. The fact that the not-insignificant risk of death, myocarditis, cardiovascular, cerebrovascular and other neurological damage are not mentioned is nothing short of criminal. What happened to “informed consent”?
1. “Effective” – Seriously? Do you believe that Queensland’s experience of the lack of real benefit of this “vaccine” will be any different to the experiences of the rest of the world, where reports come in on a daily basis of the failure of the “vaccine” to deliver what was promised. I know Australia is known as “the lucky country” but I think it will take more than luck for us to experience any more efficacious a result from this “vaccine” than the rest of the world has.
2. “Free” - yeah, right – the taxpayer will be paying for this for decades to come.
No, the only thing that has kept Queensland relatively COVID-free has been the strict border closures. But at what cost? Businesses destroyed, families torn asunder, and the human psyche stretched beyond its limits.


The above policies have indeed resulted in a two-tier society: 1) the vaccinated who have been led to believe they are “protected” (I have had multiple vaccinated patients tell me this) but are actually not, and 2) those who have exercised their freedom of choice not to be vaccinated, but who have been deprived of the chance to achieve natural immunity due to your attempts to quash a coronavirus.


Congratulations! As you and your colleagues pat yourselves on your collective backs and brag about a “world-leading” approach to the coronavirus problem, what you have actually produced is a community with 0% herd immunity and 100% herd insanity. We are like a fresh agar plate in a laboratory waiting to be infected. But anyone with a firm understanding of virology, immunology, epidemiology, sociology and human psychology could have told you this would happen. I presume you have a panel of experts that advise you? They would have known this would happen. So, they have either not advised you correctly, or you have chosen to ignore them – I don’t know which scenario frightens me more.


One of the basic tenets we get taught at medical school is what’s called the biopsychosocial model – each and every person is a unique mix of biology, psyche and their social environment. Everyone on the planet – that is 7+ billion very individual people. So, it’s no wonder that your carpet-bombing of every individual with “vaccines,” lockdowns, masks etc has failed. As has oft been said, we have moved from “one size fits all, to one size fits none.” And as history has shown, carpet-bombing always has the same result – death, despair, destruction, desolation and, eventually, public dissent and outrage.


The other huge worry is that the medical profession is not allowed to question any of your decisions for fear of being deregistered by AHPRA. What happened to the scientific norm of open debate? Must be hidden somewhere behind the façade of your emergency powers. Nobel prize-winning quantum physicist Richard Feynman once said “I would rather have questions that can’t be answered, than answers that can’t be questioned.” And General George Patton is reputed to have said “If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is not thinking.” So why are the medical profession not allowed to openly debate the way the COVID problem has been handled and the efficacy of the “vaccines”? And believe me, there are a growing number who are questioning. There is a large percentage of my colleagues and the nursing profession in your health service who have told me they would not have received the “vaccine” if it wasn’t for the fear of losing their livelihood. This is a tragic betrayal of their trust and vulnerability. Shame on you.


I was delighted to receive a letter in my post-box a couple of days ago, co-signed by the Prime Minister, the federal Minister of Health and the federal Chief Health Officer. It was an invite to step forward and get a booster dose of “vaccine.” It was reassuring to note that the letter stated that only one booster dose will be needed. That’s great to hear, especially as no-one on the planet really has any idea how effective or enduring boosters might be. If the experience of the results of the first two doses is anything to go on, please forgive me if I’m not convinced. Enclosed in that letter was another information sheet again reassuring Australia that the government had secured 150 million further doses of “vaccine.” Hmmm – only one booster dose needed, 150 million doses available…? 150 million divided by the eligible population of Australia equals…… silly me, one dose each of course! After all, why wouldn’t the politicians play as recklessly with the laws of mathematics as they have with the laws of our Constitution and Human Rights.


I noted with interest the comment you made in the notification you sent out to health staff when you announced the December 15 deadline for full vaccination – toward the end of the letter, you stated something along the lines that exceptions could be made in case of workforce shortage. Now, in a health service that is notoriously understaffed (except perhaps at the administrative level), where do you draw the line between “a little understaffed” and “severely understaffed”? Just yesterday I received an email from a recruiting company advertising locum Senior Medical Officer vacancies across the small rural government hospitals in Queensland – there were 67 such vacancies (I guess it’s 68 now). I just wanted you to know that I would be very happy to keep working – not so much for you, but for the under-serviced people of rural Queensland. In order to return to work, I wouldn’t expect an apology from yourself because I realise that politicians never apologise – they merely spin the facts and pass the blame onto someone, or something, else.


I realise that you are highly unlikely to ever read this letter – I suspect you have the junk filters set very high on your email account. Maybe it will be read by one of your underlings who is also likely to hit the “delete” button. I will send a copy to your boss, for what that’s worth. But I will also send copies to other politicians and interested parties who I know will read it and who do genuinely care for the citizens of Queensland and their basic human rights. Please note I have stated my full name, phone number, physical and email addresses at the top of the letter in the name of transparency and openness, concepts you may not be familiar with.


As I enjoy my enforced retirement, I wish you luck with what remains of your career – you are going to need it.


Yours truly,


Dr Simon Stilgoe

Who exactly is this?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

It isn’t fake. I’m just posting the views of a doctor with no opinion attached. Ignorant could be someone that’s prepared to dismiss the expert opinion of a medical professional in a field he’s more qualified to comment about.

Why do you consider this an expert opinion?

 

[My Tilly]

lol our BigFooty experts potting a doctor who works in a field which correlates to people who often suffer worse outcomes from catching covid19.

Nah' he's a crack pot and has no fu**ing clue

 

[My Tilly]

Who exactly is this?

Just a nobody who decided to ace secondary college and devote the next 8+ years of their life earning a PHD.
No biggie.

Signing up to BigFooty before 2010 is just as solid of an achievement.

 

[Lebbo73]

Why do you consider this an expert opinion?

It’s a view from a Doctor’s perspective. The real question is why have they been silenced?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

lol our BigFooty experts potting a doctor who works in a field which correlates to people who often suffer worse outcomes from catching covid19.

Nah' he's a crack pot and has no fu**ing clue

Aren't people supposed to question everything and do their research before believing what they read?

Yet you expect people to believe this stuff and trust it without question?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

It’s a view from a Doctor’s perspective. The real question is why have they been silenced?

So why is this doctor's view more relevant than the 10s of 1000s with different views?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Just a nobody who decided to ace secondary college and devote the next 8+ years of their life earning a PHD.
No biggie.

Signing up to BigFooty before 2010 is just as solid of an achievement.

Does this mean that you believe the 100000 doctors worldwide with PhDs that believe in vaccinations?

 

[Chief]

lol our BigFooty experts potting a doctor who works in a field which correlates to people who often suffer worse outcomes from catching covid19.

Nah' he's a crack pot and has no fu**ing clue

And what are the other things he is doing?

Quitting in a huff over a perfectly reasonable demand that he have the best available protection from catching and transmitting a deadly viral disease.

Making out that the vaccines are ineffective when they so obviously are.

Claiming that distancing, hand sanitation, and masks are ineffective against transmission of SARS cov 2.

 

[Chief]

It’s a view from a Doctor’s perspective. The real question is why have they been silenced?

He's got his letter up on a web site.

Reproduced in this thread.

What you seem annoyed about is that you think he deserves to be paraded through MSM as a right-thinking hero.

He's just not.