Roast Why Derek?

[gerryg400]

I’m not sure how the trade went down but it is just not possible, after the review we just had, that this trade went through with the okay of a single person (Hine). There would have been meetings and in the end everyone would have been on board. We can be sure of this.

 

[Brad Goodman]

Pelchen gave Carlton an A. Nixon said they were dumb.
Pelchen thought we did ok. Spoke about a loss of about 10 spots for Collingwood with the 3rd round coming back. Mentioned the word hysteria. We've (supporters) reacted badly.
We all know what opinions are like.

To be honest I'm much more interested in the views of people, e.g. Pelchen, who aren't emotionally invested and can judge stuff objectively.

 

[Scodog10]

Pelchen gave Carlton an A. Nixon said they were dumb.
Pelchen thought we did ok. Spoke about a loss of about 10 spots for Collingwood with the 3rd round coming back. Mentioned the word hysteria. We've (supporters) reacted badly.
We all know what opinions are like.

What are your thoughts on the stupidity of that comment? As soon as I read it Pelchen loses all credibility because for it to be a 10 pick gap we need to win the premiership and Sydney miss the 8. That isn’t happening!

I think there’s been hysteria yes, but on the back of last year it doesn’t phase me. If there was one thing we needed to do as a club this trade period it was to not get burnt on a deal to earn back some trust...

Edit: thinking on it a bit further Pelchen doesn’t actually know what the deal was. For him to think it was a circa 10 pick downgrade he must have thought we got Sydney’s 2018 2nd back not their third. Makes a lot more sense under that scenario. What a pelican

 

[MarkT2]

Okay, we gave them the equivalent of Pick 28 in next year’s draft. That is based on us finishing 9th next year. Personally, I think with some luck, we play finals.
Draft points on that are 677.

We got back pick 70 this year which amounts to 39 points and their 3rd rounder next year which will be around pick 48 if they finish 6th. That pick is worth 302 points.

Meaning 336 is the difference, which would be around pick 46-48.

Considering we have identified the kid and gone after him, he has had 2 years in the system of an incredibly consistent AFL club, got offered a senior contract, and got him for pick 48.

Seriously, overreaction guys. Come on!!!!

We will more likely finish 12th or thereabouts and Swans will be top 4. Next year's draft is supposed to be more highly rated than this years.

 

[TKiL]

Took a deep breath and decided to agree with Jmac - there's a lot of crap on this thread - more like uninformed hysteria.

1. Yes Hine hasn't got every past selection "right" - do we sack him for that? [I'm not prepared to give up on Sier just yet]

2. Give Murray a break.

3. How many posters know the complexities of gaining / losing points in trades etc? (for sure I don't)

4. Trading is not the same as recruiting. I suspect coaches play a far greater role in trading.

5. How many posters have sat in on the list mngt, 2018 game plan, drafting etc .. whatever, mtgs at the club?

6. Trade period must be judged in conjunction with the draft and final list

7. The test is how the new list performs next year

 

[MarkT2]

The fact this thread got to six pages is a disgrace.

In what context? IMO it is a reflection of the growing dissatisfaction with how our club has been mismanaged in every aspect. People are finally (3uyeras too late) frustrated that we are below par across the board.

Happy to hear about what we do particularly well that will help see us turn the corner if you can educate me.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

In what context? IMO it is a reflection of the growing dissatisfaction with how our club has been mismanaged in every aspect. People are finally (3uyeras too late) frustrated that we are below par across the board.

Happy to hear about what we do particularly well that will help see us turn the corner if you can educate me.

Rubbish, its the same whingers and whiners who do it every day

If I use your analogy, the yearly forum is a reflection of how well the members think the club is going, everyone is happy

 

[cleomenes]

The sack Hines calls are pointless and are scapegoating before the event.
The acquisition of Murray is a nightmare for the player himself, just as the Mayne process was. The pressure our recruiting method (not the choices themselves) puts on the players sets them up to fail. Wells is such a great player he was able to wear the pressure and perform. Mayne has not been able to so far.
By trading him in for the price we did, we have put Murray on a hiding to nothing, with every motion he makes under microscopic scrutiny for the whole of his time at Collingwood. He will have to be a strong character indeed, as well as a good player to rise above this and be a success.
AFL processes are inflexible, particularly when it comes to Collingwood, but our recruiting team needs to urgently explore ways to get the players they want in without generating the king of heat that their recent efforts have.
Bad choices will occur, but the pressure our method puts on our recruits makes failure more likely. Perhaps some transparency and a move away from the bland content free statements that PR men specialize in would help a little.
A little leeway from us wouldn't go astray either.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

You like today's trade and the fact we still have Aish/Ramsay/Smith/Sier on our list?

Just on those players.
smith and Ramsay are very very shaky, and look at best depth types.
Aish, he has this season to step out of himself so to speak, or will end up handy depth. Though skilled.
The above are all looming for the chop if not this month then next season's end.
Aish has the year at least.

Sier, I'm happy he has another year. I'd like to see him go with a big full pre season and an injury free run.
Young, injured and big unit. I'm just patient with him as he might be a cheap gem.
If not plenty of time to move him on.
But they all can't be best 22 immediately.
So for me, he deserves more time.
I was intrigued they gave him number 36, maybe they quote like him - maybe it was just the number he asked for.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Forgot he was a first rounder. Yep, still, Steele, Grundy, maybe De Gooey in 12 years is a pretty poor success rate.

Plus our premiership FB and CHB...

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I’m not sure how the trade went down but it is just not possible, after the review we just had, that this trade went through with the okay of a single person (Hine). There would have been meetings and in the end everyone would have been on board. We can be sure of this.

That surely is a certainty.
The group of them wanted Murray for list need, pace etc, and Sydney squeezed hard.
The heart and minds followed, we paid the price.

Too much, probably, but I'm certain was a collective decision. What that says, each can judge for themselves.

 

[regpies]

So many posts from so many people who have never seen this guy play. I'm ignorant on this bloke but it would be quite funny to see him do really well next year. I reserve judgement on this one and so should most of you.

People blowing up aren’t bagging Murray, we get that it’s recruitment based on a type of player. We are blowing up because we’ve just been robbed blind by giving up a 2nd rd pick next year to the Swans for a player who hasn’t played a single game of AFL and has average stats at NEAFL level.

Carlton paid pick 58 for Darcy Lang, a guy who has played some good games for Geelong, at AFL level. We got 105 for Marley Williams, again a guy who has played good games at AFL level. Then our halfwit footy department pays what is going to be the equivalent of pick 45 next year.

Even if he becomes a good player we still paid way too much. It’s utterly embarrassing. This should’ve been a pick 70 something trade.

 

[DaVe86]

I reckon Hine has had a tough couple of years.

I've always rated Hine's drafting and trading abilities. But the last 2 years have been a struggle.

But he has been quite hamstrung.

Last year, I genuinely believe Gubby took over and Hine didn't have a huge say in proceedings.

And I think this year he was left with barely any salary cap space and a whole heap of average players who were contracted. So it didn't give us any wriggle room at the trade table.

I'm hoping we took the hit this year so that we can attack next years trade period with more gusto. We'll have a lot of players coming out of contract which is actually a positive because the majority of them are fairly average. Our salary cap should be healthy, and we'll have a strong draft to look forward to.

I do think we should have done more this year to improve our draft position, and also tried to trade some contracted players to free up some cap space. But that's easier said than done considering the majority of the players didn't carry any trade value.

 

[DaVe86]

People blowing up aren’t bagging Murray, we get that it’s recruitment based on a type of player. We are blowing up because we’ve just been robbed blind by giving up a 2nd rd pick next year to the Swans for a player who hasn’t played a single game of AFL and has average stats at NEAFL level.

Carlton paid pick 58 for Darcy Lang, a guy who has played some good games for Geelong, at AFL level. We got 105 for Marley Williams, again a guy who has played good games at AFL level. Then our halfwit footy department pays what is going to be the equivalent of pick 45 next year.

Even if he becomes a good player we still paid way too much. It’s utterly embarrassing. This should’ve been a pick 70 something trade.

I agree with everything in your post.

But clearly the Swans weren't going to just trade him for a low pick. They wanted something better. They held the cards.

It was more a question of how bad we wanted him, and clearly the Swans knew they could drive a hard bargain.

So I suppose there is a bit of pressure on Murray now to live up to the punt we took on him.

In all honesty, Murray's trade value was clearly 70+. But Sydney would not have accepted that, so we had to do better. The question now is whether we should've paid the price, or walked away and looked at maybe someone like Mullett as a DFA

 

[Snoop Dog]

Wow.....I am not necessarily in the sack Hine camp bc its a group list mgmt decision but that deal is unbelievable.

If you assume same finish for both clubs then the points difference works out to be pick #38.

Carlton got Darcy Lang for pick #51

 

[MarkT2]

Rubbish, its the same whingers and whiners who do it every day

If I use your analogy, the yearly forum is a reflection of how well the members think the club is going, everyone is happy

Have they increased in number in the last 2 years?
I get that you are happy and want to defend everything but trust me more and more Pies fans are becoming restless.

 

[doppleganger]

The concept of value and 'over-paying' is a funny thing.

You have 'experts' like Terry Wallace coming out and rating a teams draft period. But who holds Wallace's rating to account?

Do people go back and check how he rated 2014 and 2015 trade periods?

Value as a concept is about the importance of a player, a guy like Marley was no longer deemed important by Collingwood and so had little value.

'Tis like Weller to Gold Coast, the general consensus is GC lost that deal...but they brought in a former pick 14 who has shown plenty who actually wants to be at the Suns for the next decade. To GC that is a huge win to get a young gun who wants to play for them instead of going to the draft and using pick 2 on a Caddy, Prestia, Bennel who don't want to play for them.

Collingwood identified Murray as a player we wanted, so to us his value was high.

Value doesn't equate to exposed AFL form.

 

[regpies]

GC were throwing away draft picks yesterday. Why didn’t we get involved.

They were looking for a downgrade of 2 so they could get Weller and something else. We could’ve offered 6 and next years 3rd for pick 2 and GC probably would’ve taken it.

 

[wicksy]

The thread is mostly full of ignorant posts from people who think they know best.

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you as I'm bullish on Murray but surely when you look at similar trades around the league, you roll your eyes at how we manage to get buttered up and f***ed every year.

- M.Kennedy 2nd rounder
- A.Saad 2nd rounder
- N.Wilson 2nd rounder

All very good players.... Two of which would have filled the hole we wanted filled. Why didn't we fill our holes with players that actually had runs on the board?

I can understand us filling our holes with rookies on low wages. After all, I've said the words "Money Ball" about 1000 times this last month BUT... why the hell did we overpay so badly?! Why wasn't a 3rd or 4th rounder enough for a guy who literally could have just walked to the pre season draft. I mean, we had all the leverage but still came out of it with a limp.

 

[Spatfers]

Have they increased in number in the last 2 years?
I get that you are happy and want to defend everything but trust me more and more Pies fans are becoming restless.

Forget reasoning Mark, everything is fine at Collingwood and there are no problems.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Forget reasoning Mark, everything is fine at Collingwood and there are no problems.

He's not and neither are you

 

[BPikkers]

Apart from the Aish Trade, I don’t think our club has performed badly at all when it comes to handing over picks/players to bring new players in.

Free agents? Well we need to do a lot more work on it.

I’m comfortable to keep a little faith in them for this transaction. Hine and Co have obviously been watching Murray a lot closer than any of us (probably most clubs recruiters as well), so they are in the best position to know what they have to work with.

We are complaining about Hine without even knowing anything about the kid or the club’s intentions for next year. What a bunch of heroes.

If anything, I like the fact the club at least is looking through every avenue for potential recruits.

 

[wicksy]

Apart from the Aish Trade, I don’t think our club has performed badly at all when it comes to handing over picks/players to bring new players in.

Free agents? Well we need to do a lot more work on it.

I’m comfortable to keep a little faith in them for this transaction. Hine and Co have obviously been watching Murray a lot closer than any of us (probably most clubs recruiters as well), so they are in the best position to know what they have to work with.

We are complaining about Hine without even knowing anything about the kid or the club’s intentions for next year. What a bunch of heroes.

If anything, I like the fact the club at least is looking through every avenue for potential recruits.

We could have had Saad.

This is like giving your wife $100,000 to buy a car and she comes back with a Holden Astra and no change.

 

[TradeDraft]

Sounds like Hine

 

[TradeDraft]

Apart from the Aish Trade, I don’t think our club has performed badly at all when it comes to handing over picks/players to bring new players in.

Free agents? Well we need to do a lot more work on it.

I’m comfortable to keep a little faith in them for this transaction. Hine and Co have obviously been watching Murray a lot closer than any of us (probably most clubs recruiters as well), so they are in the best position to know what they have to work with.

We are complaining about Hine without even knowing anything about the kid or the club’s intentions for next year. What a bunch of heroes.

If anything, I like the fact the club at least is looking through every avenue for potential recruits.

At least Aish Trade made more Scence then This Murray One