Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder:

This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread.

Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thanks.

 

[ShanDog]

I'd certainly be interested in reading you attempt to demonstrate a series of objectively 'better' rights, Shan.

There's no single quantifiable measure that could do this, and I fully admit it's a values-based judgement at its core. However, that doesn't make it some unknowable and completely subjective issue. Postmodernist ideas are great for thought experiments but completely useless for anything involving real world application, because the real world comes with real lived consequences.

So the short answer is that I can't, and I don't care because I'm right regardless, which jibes with the postmodern philosophy anyway. Check and mate

 

[Number37]

I don't even know where to start with this baffling attempt at reasoning.

The question is pretty clear regardless of how much you try to dodge it.

What region/cultural group/nation of the world has better rights and outcomes for the people in it than the liberal democracies of Westernised nations?

None.
That doesn't mean that Western Society is better.
Like I said at the very beginning, Western Society is no better. It is the same as all non-Western societies.
So when people like you make unsubstantiated claims that Western Society is better because it's better, you are talking shit.

 

[ShanDog]

None.
That doesn't mean that Western Society is better.

It literally does.

I'd love to spend a day in your mind.

 

[Number37]

There's no single quantifiable measure that could do this, and I fully admit it's a values-based judgement at its core. However, that doesn't make it some unknowable and completely subjective issue. Postmodernist ideas are great for thought experiments but completely useless for anything involving real world application, because the real world comes with real lived consequences.

So the short answer is that I can't, and I don't care because I'm right regardless, which jibes with the postmodern philosophy anyway. Check and mate

Real world comes with real lived consequences....no shit sherlock.
How TF does that support what you have said?
It doesn't.
You are just throwing around pseudo intellectual nonsense to attempt to support something that you said that isn't even remotely true.

The obvious flaw in your pseudo intellectual nonsense is that non-Western societies have been around for a very long time. They haven't survived this long by accident.
History tells us that whenever a society hasn't worked out we have seen revolution.
It would appear that the day of reckoning for Western society is fast approaching.
Which could mean that non-Western societies outlast Western society.
But somehow your ridiculous logic tells you that that means Western society is better.

"Real lived consequences" indeed.

 

[sr36]

It literally does.

I'd love to spend a day in your mind.

You touched on how to measure it objectively earlier - outcomes, but the outcomes people choose to focus on are very subjective and related to that person's values.

The USA best embodies the focus on what is perceived as "the West" and prioritising individuals and their rights rather than collective values - both socially and economically.

It's created a society with strong individual rights and incredible wealth, but also high murder rates, high crime rates in general, high rates of depression, high rates of social disconnection, inequality, unequal access to medicine and has also driven environmental destruction.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Doing so as a response to the religion that the building represents rather than how the building and it's use will affect community infrastructure is definitely religious oppression.

New sites are always subject to contest though. Someone wants a church, someone wants a shopping centre, someone wants a school. The decision process sits via usual town planning etc. there is no inherent reason for the religious building purpose to be handwaved over the other uses. Because there is no inherent special property of a religious opinion. This does not constitute oppression. Oppression would be if the religious use was barred from applying.

 

[ShanDog]

Real world comes with real lived consequences....no s**t sherlock.
How TF does that support what you have said?
It doesn't.
You are just throwing around pseudo intellectual nonsense to attempt to support something that you said that isn't even remotely true.

The obvious flaw in your pseudo intellectual nonsense is that non-Western societies have been around for a very long time. They haven't survived this long by accident.
History tells us that whenever a society hasn't worked out we have seen revolution.
It would appear that the day of reckoning for Western society is fast approaching.
Which could mean that non-Western societies outlast Western society.
But somehow your ridiculous logic tells you that that means Western society is better.

"Real lived consequences" indeed.

Go live in Pakistan.

 

[ShanDog]

You touched on how to measure it objectively earlier - outcomes, but the outcomes people choose to focus on are very subjective and related to that person's values.

The USA best embodies the focus on what is perceived as "the West" and prioritising individuals and their rights rather than collective values - both socially and economically.

It's created a society with strong individual rights and incredible wealth, but also high murder rates, high crime rates in general, high rates of depression, high rates of social disconnection, inequality, unequal access to medicine and has also driven environmental destruction.

To skip over Europe, Oceana, Japan & Korea, and the rest of North America to focus on just the US is a bit dishonest. Only an American would claim that the US is ultimate expression of western ideals.

 

[sr36]

To skip over Europe, Oceana, Japan & Korea, and the rest of North America to focus on just the US is a bit dishonest. Only an American would claim that the US is ultimate expression of western ideals.

"The West" itself is a dishonest concept, particularly when including a country like Korea that has far more cultural similarity to China than Australia or America. Or Nordic attitudes towards the collective versus individualism.

I chose US as it embodies individual freedomd above other countries.

 

[ShanDog]

"The West" itself is a dishonest concept, particularly when including a country like Korea that has far more cultural similarity to China than Australia or America. Or Nordic attitudes towards the collective versus individualism.

I chose US as it embodies individual freedomd above other countries.

There's always going to be blurred boundaries. The context we have been talking about is in regards to rights and freedoms primarily, with outcomes as a byproduct of that. So in that regard, Korea and Japan are absolutely correct to be grouped with the rest.

 

[Gethelred]

So the short answer is that I can't, and I don't care because I'm right regardless, which jibes with the postmodern philosophy anyway.

Lol.

Check and mate

Last I checked, upending the table because you disagree with the rules isn't how you win a game of chess.

 

[ShanDog]

Lol.

Last I checked, upending the table because you disagree with the rules isn't how you win a game of chess.

It is if it's postmodern chess because you can make up the rules as you go!

 

[Malifice]

Their beliefs should not impact wider society more than what footy team they support.

They dont.

Any widening of religious power of influence beyond this is illogical.

And this provision is in the constitution.

The facts are that Australia is becoming less religious over time (and that's factoring in all religions, not just Islam). 'No Religion' is the fastest growing religion in Australia, and it remains so by several orders of magnitude.

 

[JackOutback]

Go live in Pakistan.

I would suggest a doctor in Pakistan would objectively be better off under their system than a homeless person with mental health problems in Australia. Which system is better is all about perspective, as has been mentioned.

 

[ShanDog]

I would suggest a doctor in Pakistan would objectively be better off under their system than a homeless person with mental health problems in Australia. Which system is better is all about perspective, as has been mentioned.

I'm sure it's a lot nicer to be the Supreme Ruler in North Korea than a homeless person in New Zealand too. You can't talk population or national sized issues and use individual anecdotes to support a point.

 

[JackOutback]

I'm sure it's a lot nicer to be the Supreme Ruler in North Korea than a homeless person in New Zealand too. You can't talk population or national sized issues and use individual anecdotes to support a point.

I mean, I'm not exactly using individualism, as your example did. There were 122,500 people homeless on any given night in 2021, that number is likely to be much higher now. For that entire population, our Western ideals failed them. Now, we can argue it's better for the majority, but that's still more opinion than fact.

 

[Number37]

Go live in Pakistan.

Go get pulled over by the cops in the leader of free world as a non-white. See how those cops hand you your Western society rights at the end of a bullet or baton.

 

[ShanDog]

Go get pulled over by the cops in the leader of free world as a non-white. See how those cops hand you your Western society rights at the end of a bullet or baton.

You have a brain rot from propaganda.

 

[Number37]

You have a brain rot from propaganda.

Another ad-hom.

The society that created the concepts of democracy and human rights is somehow inferior to the society that has bastardised both democracy and human rights?

One minute you're on about "lived reality", next minute lived reality is trumped by imaginary superiority. Because reasons...
Don't be f'ing ridiculous.

 

[ZEV]

Go get pulled over by the cops in the leader of free world as a non-white. See how those cops hand you your Western society rights at the end of a bullet or baton.

Alot of people in non-western nations would be pretty happy to have access to a car, roads and a police force.

 

[ShanDog]

Another ad-hom.

The society that created the concepts of democracy and human rights is somehow inferior to the society that has bastardised both democracy and human rights?

One minute you're on about "lived reality", next minute lived reality is trumped by imaginary superiority. Because reasons...
Don't be f'ing ridiculous.

If you're so worried about ad homs, maybe don't be so aggressive with your posting?

This isn't hard to follow, but try. Postmodernist ideas are no good for applying to lived reality. Lived experience is no good for applying to population-level problems. These are not statement in conflict with each other.

The brain rot you have is evident in the post where you claim that being black and getting pulled over in the USA will mean you face some sort of abuse, violence or death. This is bullshit and there's myriad evidence to directly refute that. But because you care more about ideology than truth, any argument or evidence that doesn't support your point of view is immediately dismissed. Incidentally, this is why just about anything that comes out of your mouth/fingertips online can also be summarily dismissed.

 

[barreness]

There's always going to be blurred boundaries. The context we have been talking about is in regards to rights and freedoms primarily, with outcomes as a byproduct of that. So in that regard, Korea and Japan are absolutely correct to be grouped with the rest.

They're both one party US client states with cultural attitudes to women that would suit early 20th century Aus, love that liberal democracy

Speaking of Pakistan didn't they just overthrow their popular President and go back to the US backed military candidate, "all will be forgiven" apparently
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...emoval-as-pakistan-pm-after-he-visited-russia

 

[Seeds]

Go get pulled over by the cops in the leader of free world as a non-white. See how those cops hand you your Western society rights at the end of a bullet or baton.

Do you not understand numbers? Those racial actions are illegal in western countries and happen only on rare occassions. They shouldnt happen at all and we need to continue to improve our enforcement of law to ensure they dont. But to say those rare occassions are equivalent to the widespread instutional enforcement of racist and homophobic policies in certain tin pot developing dictatorships (and some large emerging economies) shows you have a comple lack of understanding of magnitudes.

 

[JackOutback]

Do you not understand numbers? Those racial actions are illegal in western countries and happen only on rare occassions. They shouldnt happen at all and we need to continue to improve our enforcement of law to ensure they dont. But to say those rare occassions are equivalent to the widespread instutional enforcement of racist and homophobic policies in certain tin pot developing dictatorships (and some large emerging economies) shows you have a comple lack of understanding of magnitudes.

I believe black people would say they are far from rare. Only the most egregious make headlines. There are everyday encounters that begin with just unfairly being stopped far more often than whites.

Oh, and police have stormed the wrong house, killed black people and not been punished. The idea that these actions are illegal and punished is naive at best. Authority protect their own.

 

[Number37]

Do you not understand numbers? Those racial actions are illegal in western countries and happen only on rare occassions. They shouldnt happen at all and we need to continue to improve our enforcement of law to ensure they dont. But to say those rare occassions are equivalent to the widespread instutional enforcement of racist and homophobic policies in certain tin pot developing dictatorships (and some large emerging economies) shows you have a comple lack of understanding of magnitudes.

FMD

What's the difference for the victim.
The African American who gets shot by the police for no reason.
The institutional enforcement of racist policies in dictatorships.