Why boycotting Israel matters

[Hawkforce]

Thanks HTB. Seems like they shut Douglas Reed down. Like they shut down Jim Allen when he wanted to discuss Zionist collaboration with the Nazis.

So... Let's all google Douglas Reed and see what we might that neither Cancat nor HTB bothered to mention.

Took all of 15 seconds to discover that Douglas Reed was a virulent opponent of the de-colonisation of Africa. In particular he supported Ian Smith's dictatorship in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe).

So, now we've established that Douglas Reed was not just "Anti-Zionist" but a white racist supremacist who advocated Colonisation of Africa, I think we can safely assume that both Cancat and HTB are also white racist supremacists. Which might, just slightly, call into question their commitment to the Palestinian cause as a quest for universal equality and justice.

You know, Blackcat, it would be so nice if just once, just a single time, you took some time out from accusing every post even remotely supporting Israel's position as "Hasbara" (propaganda), and dealt with the Ku Klux Klan shit being posted every other day on your watch.

You're surrounded by an infestation of vile white racists using this forum, using you, to promulgate antisemitism. Because they know people like you will look away as long as they broadly agree with you and don't openly talk about how Jews control the world and Blacks should be enslaved.

But it's just a couple of clicks away. An ocean of racism so vile it's staggering. You know it's there. But you don't acknowledge it.

Because you're so busy watching out for "Hasbara"


But, yes, boycotting Israeli Universities, world leaders in medical and technogical innovation, and Academics and Writers and Poets And Musicians... Clearly that's far more important...

 

[Hawkforce]

I totally agree with the sentiment that the holocaust is one of the worst acts of genocide in the history of humanity. My point about that it is not a reason for them to over populate someone else's land and then institute a form of genocide themselves.

Do you actually know what the term "Genocide" means?

Or, indeed, "over populate"?

Why don't you try some basic googling starting with Palestinian Birth rates since 1948. For extra points compare them to the Palestinian birth rates in the ghettos set up for them in Syria and Lebanon....

Then, if you're actually interested (as opposed to just casually "caring" or racist) you could compare that to Israeli birth rates. In fact you can chuck in Jewish immigration on top. If you "care" you'll post the numbers. If you're a racist... Who gives a shit...

Anyhoo... The population explosion in the Palestinian territories is simply staggering. That's why the Jordanians, the Lebanese, the Syrians, Egyptians and especially the Saudis keep them in ghettos...

Now... As far as I'm aware "genocide" usually ends in a reduction of the victim population, right? That's certainly how it worked in the Death Camps of WWII Europe...

Or when you said "a form of Genocide" perhaps you meant "not like Genocide at all but if I'm going to lie about birth rates I may as well make it a really big lie"

"Evil nation" does not condemn all of its citizens. The USA has many great qualities and on the whole its citizens are wonderful people. However, its foreign policies make them very much an "Evil nation". I am a white Australian but my nation's genocide upon the original inhabitants of this land makes us in many ways an "evil nation".

Not just an "evil nation" but one, by any comparison, far,worse than anything Israel has done.

You do realise that Israel had a fully inclusive and proportional Democratic system, regardless of race, colour or creed. The first properly elected Arab MP's with a true constituency. And a female Prime Minister... All of this...

While Australia still had the "White Australia" policy, and forcibly removed the "stolen generation"... You might be surprised to learn just when Aboriginies got the right to vote. Here's a hint: after Arab-Israelis... Before any other Arab citizen until Iraq 2005...

Unquestionably, and by any reasonable measure, this makes you far more "evil" than either America or Israel. How many Aboriginie Members of Parliament are there? What are the relative Birth Rates?

Even better: try checking the average life expectancy of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and Aboriginies in Australia...


Now... I don't expect you to do any of this. You're either just another tedious racist or some floating middle class white naive twit thinking "can't go wrong here, surely?!"

I just wanted to make one thing clear: if you think what Australia did was "evil" then you should admire Israel's formative years.

If you're just saying that.to appear "right on" - then you're a campaigner and an enemy of the Palestinian people just as much to Israelis.

And beneath contempt to use Aborigines...

 

[blackcat]

You know, Blackcat, it would be so nice if just once, just a single time, you took some time out from accusing every post even remotely supporting Israel's position as "Hasbara" (propaganda), and dealt with the Ku Klux Klan shit being posted every other day on your watch.

You're surrounded by an infestation of vile white racists using this forum, using you, to promulgate antisemitism

you know, i dont read EVERY post, and every on link.

i consistently bring up anti-semetic posts dude. would have around one dozen of MY posts, telling the forum "beyond the pale".

told Mani and OBF to quite on the Soros and Rothschilds baking monies.

Because you're so busy watching out for "Hasbara"

now you have stopped smearing me, i do take offence at the one-issue voters. never any pro-muslim posters, and telling folks like you about the islamophobia beyond the pale.

but you can doubt my invocation of the dozen posts telling members that this is inappropriate position or post. do a member search for blackcat for the term "semitism" or a google site search for blackcat + "anti-semitism" and you will find these posts for yourself.

Hard To Beat is a reasonable in humanity terms, member/poster, and it is offensive to smear him when you never engage with the SRP forum.

 

[cancat]

So... Let's all google Douglas Reed and see what we might that neither Cancat nor HTB bothered to mention.

Took all of 15 seconds to discover that Douglas Reed was a virulent opponent of the de-colonisation of Africa. In particular he supported Ian Smith's dictatorship in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe).

So, now we've established that Douglas Reed was not just "Anti-Zionist" but a white racist supremacist who advocated Colonisation of Africa, I think we can safely assume that both Cancat and HTB are also white racist supremacists. Which might, just slightly, call into question their commitment to the Palestinian cause as a quest for universal equality and justice.

So let's all Google Israeli - Rhodesia relations and see what we might find that Hawkforce neglected to mention. Took all of 15 seconds to uncover that Israel sold arms to the white-minority government of Rhodesia. So by your "logic" the government of Israel were white racist supremacists.

We should not have been surprised by your post. Playing the race card is normal behaviour against any criticism of Zionism or the Israeli government.

 

[blackcat]

So let's all Google Israeli - Rhodesia relations and see what we might find that Hawkforce neglected to mention. Took all of 15 seconds to uncover that Israel sold arms to the white-minority government of Rhodesia. So by your "logic" the government of Israel were white racist supremacists.

We should not have been surprised by your post. Playing the race card is normal behaviour against any criticism of Zionism or the Israeli government.

twas a little bit of a low blow to h2b and cc imo. and smearing me also.

but i have not been completely innocent of tossing the juvenile unergraduate socialist alliance race card once or twice. prolly twice. nah, make that perhaps 'alf a dozen occasions in my decade long bf career

i'd prefer that folks engaging in discourse involve themselves in more than one thread. and i do think there could be more posturing and engagement on threads like ceylon civil war and the tamils and sinhalese cos they really have more concerning our neck of woods here.

be nicer if hawkforce and redlegs were involved in other threads and nor merely the partisan controversies

 

[cancat]

twas a little bit of a low blow to h2b and cc imo. and smearing me also.

but i have not been completely innocent of tossing the juvenile unergraduate socialist alliance race card once or twice. prolly twice. nah, make that perhaps 'alf a dozen occasions in my decade long bf career

i'd prefer that folks engaging in discourse involve themselves in more than one thread. and i do think there could be more posturing and engagement on threads like ceylon civil war and the tamils and sinhalese cos they really have more concerning our neck of woods here.

be nicer if hawkforce and redlegs were involved in other threads and nor merely the partisan controversies

There is also a wider point to be made. Certain opinions on world events, such as the Ceylon civil war, are not suppressed, anti-Zionist views are.

Douglas Reed was a Times correspondent and best selling author. He was anti-Nazi, so much so that he resigned his Times post because of their support for appeasement of Hitler. But it was his anti-Zionist views that got his books banned. Of course he was accused of being anti-semitic, but this was a smear, his arguments against Zionism were political. It would be hard to agree with everything he said - e.g. his fear of communism taking over Africa was misplaced - but political views should be countered by alternative political views, not by prohibition.

Jim Allen's play Perdition was about real life events in Jerusalem in 1955. The Israeli government commenced a libel case against Malchiel Gruenwald, a Hungarian Jew who lost 52 relatives at Auschwitz. He had accused another Hungarian Jew Rudolf Kastner of collaborating with the Nazis and failing to warn the Hungarian Jewish community that they were to be loaded onto trains and taken to the gas chambers. Kastner was nominally a witness in the case but became the defacto defendant as his actions during the war were questioned. Jim Allen's play was shut down under false allegations of anti-Semitism.

And as far as I know there is only one set of events in history where having a certain view of those events will get you imprisoned. But you don't have to be a Holocaust denier to be labelled anti-Semitic, arguing in favour of free speech on the matter, as done by Noam Chomsky, Christopher Hitchens and Peter Singer is enough.

 

[blackcat]

i am for a hypothetical zionism. if in a vacuum that cannot dispossess or prioritise rights of indigenous people. then again, i could easily be alleged to be hypocritical living my comfy life in melbourne.

ofcouse there were zionist callaborators. and zionists who did not agitate for diaspora refugees in britain and america, encouraging palestine as the only option. but we are not allowed to know this. we are allowed to see the grand mufti of jerusalem shaking the hand of hitler, even tho he had arabs below jews on his totem pole of racial purity. and the mufti was not elected and he never spoke on behalf of the indigenous. jewish people, if they wish to self indentify and have political determination as jews. yes. like i would prefer everyone have a vote in any nation. but if there is not a nation that pre-48 existed, that needed to be depopulated.

happy for them now. but stick to the facts, and not the shtick.
the lies sit uncomfortably for those who are for jewish rights.

 

[medusala]

You do realise that Israel had a fully inclusive and proportional Democratic system, regardless of race, colour or creed.

Fully inclusive? What about those who left / were forced out of the country and still to this day not allowed to return?

 

[blackcat]

Fully inclusive? What about those who left / were forced out of the country and still to this day not allowed to return?

fully inclusive is bs. try getting the same rights. planning approvals? east jerusalem residency? west bank well depth? water rights? public infrastructure to israeli citizens in arab areas.

i think hawkforce knows this is a lie. they dont even publish such libels in the australian jewish news.

 

[Sanders]

Actually your every day Australian who supports Israel alert.

I personally find that to be racist and completely incorrect.

How about ignorant keyboard warrior alert.

There's a lot of not very well disguised anti-semitism masquerading as political debate here

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

There's a lot of not very well disguised anti-semitism masquerading as political debate here

Sanders. Israel is, in its current configuration, a Jewish State. Can someone be critical of a Jewish State without being anti-semetic? Can someone be critical of the concept of Zionism - the ideal of a Jewish Homeland - without being seen as a wholesale slanderer of Jews?

There is a line, and I know where it is. I accept that some don't, but what I see first and foremost in this thread is criticism of Israel and the behaviour of Israelis more than anything else...

 

[Sanders]

Sanders. Israel is, in its current configuration, a Jewish State. Can someone be critical of a Jewish State without being anti-semetic? Can someone be critical of the concept of Zionism - the ideal of a Jewish Homeland - without being seen as a wholesale slanderer of Jews?

There is a line, and I know where it is. I accept that some don't, but what I see first and foremost in this thread is criticism of Israel and the behaviour of Israelis more than anything else...

Maybe you do, but that's separate to your point.

You can criticise a black man, because of perceived traits of him being black - that's obviously racist. But just as racist is looking for fault, partisanship, exaggerating, holding to higher standards a group of people who low n behold just happen to have a certain profile. Not to mention bill cosby's subtle racism of lower expectations. All that counts.

And for some here, its not even that nuanced.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

You're surrounded by an infestation of vile white racists using this forum, using you, to promulgate antisemitism. Because they know people like you will look away as long as they broadly agree with you and don't openly talk about how Jews control the world and Blacks should be enslaved.

But it's just a couple of clicks away. An ocean of racism so vile it's staggering. You know it's there. But you don't acknowledge it.

What a load of rubbish.

Such a tired defence, screaming racism and antisemitism whenever people do not agree with Israels treatment of the Palestinians, nor its heavy handed approach to foreign policy in the region.

In fact, if you had a semblance of conscience or intellectual honesty, you would feel ashamed of yourself.

 

[blackcat]

What a load of rubbish.

Such a tired defence, screaming racism and antisemitism whenever people do not agree with Israels treatment of the Palestinians, nor its heavy handed approach to foreign policy in the region.

In fact, if you had a semblance of conscience or intellectual honesty, you would feel ashamed of yourself.

thing is, we, the uk, and the yanks, have done the preponderance of damage in the ME. French a bit too. (aus, only by virtue in sucking on teet of GWBush and coalition of willing).

but Sanders we always hear about the nobel prize winners, and everything that is great about Israel. OK, we only hear great things about the US and their culture hegomony of our popular media. but this does not tell the whole story. and we are constantly told only democracy in ME, which is not correct. and we are never told about the persian democracy in 50s. basically, we get the bullshit101, and then any due criticism, we have a whole heap of one issue voters come in and give us hasbara. and then cries of antisemitism. i was perhaps undue in stridency over Cast Lead about 5 years back, but on the whole, i have offered both devil's advocate(cy) and criticism, and context. no need to scream anti-semites.

i did not like mani and oldbluefan speaking in tropes of soros and rothschilds, and i said so.

folks who never engage w/ SRP who come in to scream anti semite (ism) is affronting.

 

[Sanders]

What a load of rubbish.

Such a tired defence, screaming racism and antisemitism whenever people do not agree with Israels treatment of the Palestinians, nor its heavy handed approach to foreign policy in the region.

In fact, if you had a semblance of conscience or intellectual honesty, you would feel ashamed of yourself.

You know who I tend to find gets tired of being accused of something?

People who find themselves repeatedly accused of same. Go figure

 

[Sanders]

thing is, we, the uk, and the yanks, have done the preponderance of damage in the ME. French a bit too. (aus, only by virtue in sucking on teet of GWBush and coalition of willing).

Steady on, Australia is irrelevant and has nothing to do with anything.

Talking about what "we" have done is usually the preserve of the would be right on hipster types

but Sanders we always hear about the nobel prize winners, and everything that is great about Israel. OK, we only hear great things about the US and their culture hegomony of our popular media. but this does not tell the whole story. and we are constantly told only democracy in ME, which is not correct. and we are never told about the persian democracy in 50s. basically, we get the bullshit101, and then any due criticism, we have a whole heap of one issue voters come in and give us hasbara. and then cries of antisemitism. i was perhaps undue in stridency over Cast Lead about 5 years back, but on the whole, i have offered both devil's advocate(cy) and criticism, and context. no need to scream anti-semites.

hasbara again? And yet I don't find anything balanced, or bi-partisan in your approach.

i did not like mani and oldbluefan speaking in tropes of soros and rothschilds, and i said so.

Don't forget HtB

I don't think anyone considers them anything other than unreconstructed knuckle scraping Klan folk.

folks who never engage w/ SRP who come in to scream anti semite (ism) is affronting.

Be affronted.

That has much analytic validity as screaming hasbara with one eye closed

 

[DivideandMultiply]

You know who I tend to find gets tired of being accused of something?

People who find themselves repeatedly accused of same. Go figure

Considering I haven't posted in this thread before that comment, you now spreading that accusation to me, though subtly, shows the dishonesty of your position.

It is an affront to both peoples intelligence and the concept of critical thinking. Someone asks legitimate questions, or makes genuine and empathic observations, about the plight of the Palestinians or has a less than right wing extremist view of Israeli foreign policy and those that don't agree scream racism and antisemitism.

The only defence they have against the indefensible.

It is people like you, who form opinions and make accusations based on their ideological bent, demonstrating a complete lack of moral compass, that contribute to the world being a more hostile and hateful place.

 

[Sanders]

Considering I haven't posted in this thread before that comment, you now spreading that accusation to me, though subtly, shows the dishonesty of your position.

Oh please.

Aside from all the manufactured indignation. My point stands.

If you are not regularly accused of something, what is your experience to complain about then?

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Oh please.

Aside from all the manufactured indignation. My point stands.

If you are not regularly accused of something, what is your experience to complain about then?

It is something I witness regularly, both in forums and in the press.

My indignation is not manufactured.

 

[Sanders]

It is something I witness regularly, both in forums and in the press.

My indignation is not manufactured.

You witness it (at least you didn't say it was a friend) because your confirmation bias agrees with the views under attack.

which brings me back to my original point.

 

[Sanders]

Dupe

 

[Sanders]

Dupe

 

[DivideandMultiply]

You witness it (at least you didn't say it was a friend) because your confirmation bias agrees with the views under attack.

which brings me back to my original point.

Confirmation bias has nothing to do with it, it is an objective reality.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Dupe

I agree, your intention is to "dupe", as well as distract. At least you are now being honest.

 

[fishardansin]

Do you actually know what the term "Genocide" means?

Or, indeed, "over populate"?

Why don't you try some basic googling starting with Palestinian Birth rates since 1948. For extra points compare them to the Palestinian birth rates in the ghettos set up for them in Syria and Lebanon....

Then, if you're actually interested (as opposed to just casually "caring" or racist) you could compare that to Israeli birth rates. In fact you can chuck in Jewish immigration on top. If you "care" you'll post the numbers. If you're a racist... Who gives a shit...

Anyhoo... The population explosion in the Palestinian territories is simply staggering. That's why the Jordanians, the Lebanese, the Syrians, Egyptians and especially the Saudis keep them in ghettos...

Now... As far as I'm aware "genocide" usually ends in a reduction of the victim population, right? That's certainly how it worked in the Death Camps of WWII Europe...

Or when you said "a form of Genocide" perhaps you meant "not like Genocide at all but if I'm going to lie about birth rates I may as well make it a really big lie"









Not just an "evil nation" but one, by any comparison, far,worse than anything Israel has done.

You do realise that Israel had a fully inclusive and proportional Democratic system, regardless of race, colour or creed. The first properly elected Arab MP's with a true constituency. And a female Prime Minister... All of this...

While Australia still had the "White Australia" policy, and forcibly removed the "stolen generation"... You might be surprised to learn just when Aboriginies got the right to vote. Here's a hint: after Arab-Israelis... Before any other Arab citizen until Iraq 2005...

Unquestionably, and by any reasonable measure, this makes you far more "evil" than either America or Israel. How many Aboriginie Members of Parliament are there? What are the relative Birth Rates?

Even better: try checking the average life expectancy of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and Aboriginies in Australia...


Now... I don't expect you to do any of this. You're either just another tedious racist or some floating middle class white naive twit thinking "can't go wrong here, surely?!"

I just wanted to make one thing clear: if you think what Australia did was "evil" then you should admire Israel's formative years.

If you're just saying that.to appear "right on" - then you're a silly and an enemy of the Palestinian people just as much to Israelis.

And beneath contempt to use Aborigines...

So democracy makes illegal occupation ok with you?

I think you need to look up genocide. Deliberate flooding of occupied territory with religious and racist zealots in an attempt sweep away another culture is genocide.