Union corruption - who would have thought?!

[vealesy]

I would have thought the issue was corruption whether unionised or non union, reported or unreported.

Do you want to see the economy collapse?

 

[Power Raid]

Do you want to see the economy collapse?

rubbish

it will boom

corruption holds the economy back and keeps the rich rich and the poor poor


this is the bit I can't fathom. Labor makes the rich rich and the poor poor too. I have given up trying to understand why the middle class and below vote labor, I have given up understanding why the poor like unions; instead I have joined them!

 

[vealesy]

In my experience corruption made the poor (workers) work less and earn the same. Everyone got richer except the people that were overpaying, ie the rich...

 

[Jiska]

Allegations in the news about corrupt union building officials etc. and the infiltration of bikie gangs. I'm flabergasted Apparently some people have been selling drugs on building sites as well Mick Gatto's name pops up as well Never in a million years would've I put 'union's and 'corruption' in the same sentence.

What's your point?? Nearly every multinational organisation is corrupt - they run American politics. Even in Australia big business get kickbacks from political parties in the form of policy for political donations. If the top end is corrupt, why are you so surprised that the bottom end is corrupt as well??

Unions, in there purest form, are a good thing. Unions are a group of workers banding together to negotiate fair and equatable rights, such as annual leave and sick leave. There are clearly a few of the bigger unions in Australia that are extremely corrupt and have rorted the system to achieve unrealistic agreements, but you can't just lump all the unions in same boat because of a few bad apples. Workchoices is the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle is the realistic outcome that needs to be achieved.

Power breeds corruption. This isn't a problem restricted to the union movement.

 

[Bodicifer]

What's your point?? Nearly every multinational organisation is corrupt - they run American politics. Even in Australia big business get kickbacks from political parties in the form of policy for political donations. If the top end is corrupt, why are you so surprised that the bottom end is corrupt as well??

Unions, in there purest form, are a good thing. Unions are a group of workers banding together to negotiate fair and equatable rights, such as annual leave and sick leave. There are clearly a few of the bigger unions in Australia that are extremely corrupt and have rorted the system to achieve unrealistic agreements, but you can't just lump all the unions in same boat because of a few bad apples. Workchoices is the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle is the realistic outcome that needs to be achieved.

Power breeds corruption. This isn't a problem restricted to the union movement.

Never said it was restricted to the union movement, but...

The CFMEU is far from being in it's purest form, never will be. They are hot pots of crims and standover men who take bribes and make threats on peoples lives. They harbour drug gangs and bikie gangs and resort to violence when things don't got their way. Speaking of 'harbour', you ever heard any stories from the wharves? It's more than a "few bad apples". Sure, some unions do wonderful things for their members and are law abiding, upstanding people in upstanding organisations, but let's not try and sell the fable that "nearly every multinational organisation is corrupt" and compare them to the drug pedalling, thuggery, murderous, standover crap that some of the unions are synonymous for.

 

[Gough]

The big stuff is left to the transnats, phone bugging, polluting water supplies, supporting despotic regimes, activist "disappearances", the corporate world aren't exactly angels, are they? There's a fair bit of thuggery in the unions, no doubt, but it's small fry compared to what's been done for the sake of turning a profit.

 

[Power Raid]

In my experience corruption made the poor (workers) work less and earn the same. Everyone got richer except the people that were overpaying, ie the rich...

have a think about your statement and compare that to places where corruption is endemic like Indonesia. The same principles apply here.

 

[Power Raid]

The big stuff is left to the transnats, phone bugging, polluting water supplies, supporting despotic regimes, activist "disappearances", the corporate world aren't exactly angels, are they? There's a fair bit of thuggery in the unions, no doubt, but it's small fry compared to what's been done for the sake of turning a profit.

and we should work toward crushing corruption in corporations as well as governments and unions.

 

[vealesy]

have a think about your statement and compare that to places where corruption is endemic like Indonesia. The same principles apply here.

Indowhere?

Relevance to Australian Construction industry?

 

[Power Raid]

Indowhere?

Relevance to Australian Construction industry?

Corruption whether here or there leads to the same outcome; less efficiency, higher production costs, increased risk, lower investment, less jobs, increased unemployment, increased barriers to entry, higher costs of end products and lower wages.

example - ten investors have $10m to be invested in property to build ten houses.

Two investors say its too hard to build as it is too corrupt and just too hard. This automatically reduces supply and thus increases the price of housing. This is passed onto the end user.

Four of the eight that go through the process, who refused to pay a bribe, have issues with cement being denied access to the site as a truck is parked by the union across the driveway. The result is dumping of cement, the environmental clean up, the loss of productivity of workers who are left standing around doing nothing and the re-ordering of cement.

Two of these four declare bankruptcy to avoid the costs and the creditors lose out whilst a phoenix company rises. Workers lose their pay, leave entitlements and the environmental costs are born by the council as it was dumped on public land etc.

The remaining two take it in their stride and on-cost the loss onto the end purchaser (probably some first home owner) who pays an extra $50k which results in a real cost of $100k due to interest payments to the bank over the life of the loan.


The remaining four just pay the bribe as they too realise they can just on-cost this to the final end user. The bribe of course doesn't go to the union or its members, it just goes straight to the union bosses and organised crime gangs.



It can't believe we have allowed this to go on for so long and can't believe people try and justify it.

 

[vealesy]

A lot of very poor business decisions above. If anything they would have been better off being "corrupt / business savvy" and having the end user pay in what is effectively a sales tax, from investors pockets and to the people who actually built the investment.

 

[Power Raid]

A lot of very poor business decisions above. If anything they would have been better off being "corrupt / business savvy" and having the end user pay in what is effectively a sales tax, from investors pockets and to the people who actually built the investment.

so you think corruption is ok?

 

[skilts]

I'm as appalled as anyone at the influence of crooks and thugs in the building industry union. If what has been written in the media recently is any indication, the deleterious effect of these turds has become more prevalent. I know for a fact that certain executives of the CFMEU spent decades resisting this malevolent influence, at great physical risk to themselves. It would seem that the good guys have lost this battle. It is a disaster, if proven.

 

[RobbieGray17]

Allegations in the news about corrupt union building officials etc. and the infiltration of bikie gangs. I'm flabergasted Apparently some people have been selling drugs on building sites as well Mick Gatto's name pops up as well Never in a million years would've I put 'union's and 'corruption' in the same sentence.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-...s-to-crime-figures-kickbacks-for-jobs/5221234

Because there isn't corruption anywhere else, like governments, private organizations, privately owned Prisons in the U.S. Corruption isn't limited to the unions.

 

[RobbieGray17]

What's your point?? Nearly every multinational organisation is corrupt - they run American politics. Even in Australia big business get kickbacks from political parties in the form of policy for political donations. If the top end is corrupt, why are you so surprised that the bottom end is corrupt as well??

Unions, in there purest form, are a good thing. Unions are a group of workers banding together to negotiate fair and equatable rights, such as annual leave and sick leave. There are clearly a few of the bigger unions in Australia that are extremely corrupt and have rorted the system to achieve unrealistic agreements, but you can't just lump all the unions in same boat because of a few bad apples. Workchoices is the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle is the realistic outcome that needs to be achieved.

Power breeds corruption. This isn't a problem restricted to the union movement.

Saved me writing the same thing.

 

[Old Spice]

Never said it was restricted to the union movement, but...

The CFMEU is far from being in it's purest form, never will be. They are hot pots of crims and standover men who take bribes and make threats on peoples lives. They harbour drug gangs and bikie gangs and resort to violence when things don't got their way. Speaking of 'harbour', you ever heard any stories from the wharves? It's more than a "few bad apples". Sure, some unions do wonderful things for their members and are law abiding, upstanding people in upstanding organisations, but let's not try and sell the fable that "nearly every multinational organisation is corrupt" and compare them to the drug pedalling, thuggery, murderous, standover crap that some of the unions are synonymous for.

'Far from it's purest form'?

I think you might have watched too many cowboy movies. Ever heard of Tim Bristow who was a standover man for the MBA (employers association)? I recall reading Ralph, or some other T**ty publication 14 years ago in a furniture factory and reading his astounding confessions of thuggery.

Dangling people out of windows and such. What a charming man he was.

At the end of the day, CFMEU workers get their due reward for a tough job where bosses do 100 times better.

 

[Old Spice]

Corruption whether here or there leads to the same outcome; less efficiency, higher production costs, increased risk, lower investment, less jobs, increased unemployment, increased barriers to entry, higher costs of end products and lower wages.

example - ten investors have $10m to be invested in property to build ten houses.

Two investors say its too hard to build as it is too corrupt and just too hard. This automatically reduces supply and thus increases the price of housing. This is passed onto the end user.

Four of the eight that go through the process, who refused to pay a bribe, have issues with cement being denied access to the site as a truck is parked by the union across the driveway. The result is dumping of cement, the environmental clean up, the loss of productivity of workers who are left standing around doing nothing and the re-ordering of cement.

Two of these four declare bankruptcy to avoid the costs and the creditors lose out whilst a phoenix company rises. Workers lose their pay, leave entitlements and the environmental costs are born by the council as it was dumped on public land etc.

The remaining two take it in their stride and on-cost the loss onto the end purchaser (probably some first home owner) who pays an extra $50k which results in a real cost of $100k due to interest payments to the bank over the life of the loan.


The remaining four just pay the bribe as they too realise they can just on-cost this to the final end user. The bribe of course doesn't go to the union or its members, it just goes straight to the union bosses and organised crime gangs.



It can't believe we have allowed this to go on for so long and can't believe people try and justify it.

Those construction companies that can't pay decent wages go to the wall, yet the demand for the project remains.

What does that mean? It means the company who can pay the cost mops up the opposition and gets it done. You need to realise that labour costs in most industries are minuscule in the whole production process. Conversely, the spending power of well paid workers keeps the economy ticking over, particularly those industries which are peripheral to the staple elements of an economy.

 

[Power Raid]

Those construction companies that can't pay decent wages go to the wall, yet the demand for the project remains.

What does that mean? It means the company who can pay the cost mops up the opposition and gets it done. You need to realise that labour costs in most industries are minuscule in the whole production process. Conversely, the spending power of well paid workers keeps the economy ticking over, particularly those industries which are peripheral to the staple elements of an economy.

sorry mate, it is like 1 plus 1, you either get it or you don't.

take a moment longer and think about finite resources and the allocation of those resources. also who is talking about labour costs? other than the fact wages go down because of corruption.

lastly spare a thought of the spiraling affordability of housing and the people shut out of the market.

corruption = high cost of living and lower wages!

 

[Chameleon75]

I'm as appalled as anyone at the influence of crooks and thugs in the building industry union. If what has been written in the media recently is any indication, the deleterious effect of these turds has become more prevalent. I know for a fact that certain executives of the CFMEU spent decades resisting this malevolent influence, at great physical risk to themselves. It would seem that the good guys have lost this battle. It is a disaster, if proven.

The focus on the unions is like fighting yesterdays war, the criminals have evolved their business model and have moved up the chain considerably. Corruption now exists head to toe, focusing on one union isn't addressing the issue, the root cause are the criminals and they need to be flushed from wherever they reside.

 

[medusala]

" At the end of the day, CFMEU workers get their due reward"

If they get their due reward then why the need for industrial consultants like Mick Gatto?

 

[Old Spice]

sorry mate, it is like 1 plus 1, you either get it or you don't.

take a moment longer and think about finite resources and the allocation of those resources. also who is talking about labour costs? other than the fact wages go down because of corruption.

lastly spare a thought of the spiraling affordability of housing and the people shut out of the market.

corruption = high cost of living and lower wages!

None of your points logically flow, it's a disjointed mish-mash.

 

[Old Spice]

" At the end of the day, CFMEU workers get their due reward"

If they get their due reward then why the need for industrial consultants like Mick Gatto?

If Rupert Murdoch employs Piers Morgan or Andy Coulson, then presumably News Ltd employees are all on the take.

 

[vealesy]

so you think corruption is ok?

I think it is natural and cant be stopped.

Its only not "ok" if you arent getting a drink out of it.

 

[Jiska]

Never said it was restricted to the union movement, but...

The CFMEU is far from being in it's purest form, never will be. They are hot pots of crims and standover men who take bribes and make threats on peoples lives. They harbour drug gangs and bikie gangs and resort to violence when things don't got their way. Speaking of 'harbour', you ever heard any stories from the wharves? It's more than a "few bad apples". Sure, some unions do wonderful things for their members and are law abiding, upstanding people in upstanding organisations, but let's not try and sell the fable that "nearly every multinational organisation is corrupt" and compare them to the drug pedalling, thuggery, murderous, standover crap that some of the unions are synonymous for.

I agree on the CFMEU, totally.

I don't believe it's a fable at all. Big multinationals use their money, power and influence to get what they want, corrupt unions use standover tactics and thuggery to get what they want. If unions had the funds and influence of the multinationals they would use them instead of the other tactics. At the end of the day, they will use whatever arsenal is available to them.

 

[Power Raid]

I think it is natural and cant be stopped.

Its only not "ok" if you arent getting a drink out of it.

I don't like it who ever does it.