Did the USA actually "win" World War II?

[telsor]

Some of the things the Russians did to captured Germans was pretty out there. They have form for that prior as well ie civil war.

The prisoners captured at stalingrad...~ 91,000 of them....6,000 made it home...in 1955, 10 years after the war ended!

It wasn't a 'nice' war.

 

[medusala]

yes and IIRC of the ones that made it back the overwhelming majority were officers. The Russians were not beyond dismembering captured troops. Nor were they particularly chivalrous towards the female population of Berlin.

 

[telsor]

yes and IIRC of the ones that made it back the overwhelming majority were officers. The Russians were not beyond dismembering captured troops. Nor were they particularly chivalrous towards the female population of Berlin.

Both sides were vicious and there was no quarter asked or given...For troops or civilians.

 

[medusala]

Cant remember where I read it (Beevor?) but there were also stories of fighting between regular German army and the SS at one stage.

The other place where it was horrific apparently was in Yugoslavia.

 

[skilts]

As another esteemed military poster (he's pretty crappy in the politic forum but everyone has their problems) put it in another thread, Japs were pushed into war.

Which is to completely deny Japan's imperial ambitions. They saw the benefits gained by the Dutch, British, American, French, Spanish, Portugese and Belgians, through their rape of the natural resources in Asian, South American and African countries. They, possibly with some validity, thought that to be the significant world power they were convinced was their proper status, and that they should emulate the Europeans. They decided they also should launch a campaign of conquest. Unfortunately for them, their hubris outstripped their military capabilities. Couple that with the manifest idiocy of their warrior culture/religion and you have the reasons for WW II in the Pacific.

The American sanctions against them didn't come out of the blue. Japan's imperial intentions and methods had been obvious from the mid 30s, due to their monstrously barbaric activities in China and Manchuria. America had nothing to do with fomenting this hideousness. As with Hitler, the Japanese also wanted more land for their people

Anyone who has had the misfortune to read my, now mercifully rare, forays into politics on these boards would acknowledge that I hold no particular brief for American foreign policy, especially in its more recent manifestations. However, in the case of WW II, I think their actions were honorable, in the main. I have some issues with the finer details of how they conducted the campaigns, but I think history is on their side. It was a war which had to be fought, the only such conflict in which we were involved during the 20th century, or since.

 

[John]

You have far more patience than me.

 

[John]

To add touch more to the Japanese points made by skilts in sheer volume of deaths alone the Chinese in between 1937 and the end of WW2 came "2nd" after the USSR on the deaths stakes. Around about 10 million of which 8 million were civilians. Matthew White suggests in his research that 1.75 million were killed in Nationalist/Communist fighting with the rest killed by Japanese Imperial army. If the Japanese were "pushed" into the war by the US it was a "small" price to pay for their barbaric treatment of the Chinese.

 

[skilts]

The fighting at Kokoda was as intense and brutal as anything on the Eastern Front, just on a far smaller scale.

Because of the proximity of the forces involved it was almost unique, to that point in the war. The Japanese were seasoned troops, used to the conditions. The Australians learned on the job. There were no tanks, initially. The only artillery, though extremely limited, was in the hands of the Japanese, initially. The campaign was often conducted by hand-to-hand methods. Those involved had no idea who was whom, nor could they see clearly more than ten metres beyond their positions. Then there were the draining, bucketing tropical weather, and the seemingly impassable, relentless and never-ending mountain ranges. Did I mention the debilitating effects of malaria and dysentery? Intense and brutal indeed.

 

[John]

Also there is no denying the USSR treatment of German POW's but then by the same token the USSR lost an estimated 16 million civilians due to the brutality of the Axis attack.
To look at it dispassionately the USSR was hardly going to show a soft touch.

 

[MaddAdam]

Because of the proximity of the forces involved it was almost unique, to that point in the war. The Japanese were seasoned troops, used to the conditions. The Australians learned on the job.There were no tanks, initially. The only artillery, though extremely limited, was in the hands of the Japanese, initially. The campaign was often conducted by hand-to-hand methods. Those involved had no idea who was whom, nor could they see clearly more than ten metres beyond their positions. Then there were the draining, bucketing tropical weather, and the seemingly impassable, relentless and never-ending mountain ranges. Did I mention the debilitating effects of malaria and dysentery? Intense and brutal indeed.

Yep. In terms of brutal close quarter fighting, it was as bad as Stalingrad (the house by house, floor by floor fights) and fighting in the bocage post D-Day but before the breakout.

 

[John]

Yep. In terms of brutal close quarter fighting, it was as bad as Stalingrad (the house by house, floor by floor fights) and fighting in the bocage post D-Day but before the breakout.

My wife and I spent a bit of time in Normandy about 4 years back. It was a wonderful summer, we had no rain and great sunshine each day. We went to Pointe Du Hoc, Arramanches and the US cemetery. Du Hoc was fascinating for the amount of bomb holes alone and the thought that US rangers actually scaled those cliffs. I remember reflecting that this superbly beautiful country side was the scene of some very heavy and devastating fighting and at Arramanches there was youngsters and their families on the beach with the usual ice creams being slurped and directly in front of them were the remnants of the mulberry harbours. The cemetery was profoundly poignant. Almost troubling that so many had died such alterable deaths but now buried in such beautiful and scenic surrounds.

Hitchcock writes in he very good book Liberation that British soldier D Cooper wrote of Villers-Bocage that it was a "fight I will never forget. There was just enough room for 2 lorries to pass through 2 heaps of which once were houses. The whole place was absolutely raised to the ground." Hastings says in Overlord it was a "wretched episode"

 

[little graham]

. However, in the case of WW II, I think their actions were honorable, in the main. I have some issues with the finer details of how they conducted the campaigns, but I think history is on their side. It was a war which had to be fought, the only such conflict in which we were involved during the 20th century, or since.

We should look at Vietnam and Korea, in my view, if we're to debate American Honour. The Vietnemese wanted rid of their invaders France, a France behaving no different (before and after ww2) than Imperial Japan did. The Americans supported the French.The very France they liberated from Japans ally in ww2, Germany. American honor is where? America only fought for her right (and her white friends right) to rape and pillage, she didn't free anyone, she didn't liberate anyone.

No honor in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. As said,the Germans could of been defeated 18 months before they were. how many millions died as a result of deliberately delaying the end in Europe? This cost Russia dearly, Russia were apparently a victim of NAZI aggression. This not a war that had to be fought.

These are very hard things to compute, after so many years of being taught one version, I know this.Here you have a number of examples of a window to the soul.I could one day get into the royalties German arms manufacturers paid to their American shareholders during ww2, into Swiss bank accounts.Collected at wars end.

 

[telsor]

We should look at Vietnam and Korea, in my view, if we're to debate American Honour. The Vietnemese wanted rid of their invaders France, a France behaving no different (before and after ww2) than Imperial Japan did. The Americans supported the French.The very France they liberated from Japans ally in ww2, Germany. American honor is where? America only fought for her right (and her white friends right) to rape and pillage, she didn't free anyone, she didn't liberate anyone.

So France wasn't liberated, or belgium, or holland, or <insert list of countries>. True, colonies were largely returned to their original owner, but the shift towards self government largely originated around this period. Yes, Vietnam was a fight, but dozens of other countries were released freely, or with minimal fighting (which usually concerned the timing and/or who took over more than independance itself).

No honor in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

There is a very reasonable argument that these bombs saved lives (as compared to an invasion of the japanese home islands). I think some honour can be taken by reducing the casualty count.

As said,the Germans could of been defeated 18 months before they were. how many millions died as a result of deliberately delaying the end in Europe? This cost Russia dearly, Russia were apparently a victim of NAZI aggression. This not a war that had to be fought.

Really? The war could have been over in '43...How?

These are very hard things to compute, after so many years of being taught one version, I know this.Here you have a number of examples of a window to the soul.I could one day get into the royalties German arms manufacturers paid to their American shareholders during ww2, into Swiss bank accounts.Collected at wars end.

Oh, please do.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Anyone who has had the misfortune to read my, now mercifully rare, forays into politics on these boards would acknowledge that I hold no particular brief for American foreign policy, especially in its more recent manifestations. However, in the case of WW II, I think their actions were honorable, in the main. I have some issues with the finer details of how they conducted the campaigns, but I think history is on their side. It was a war which had to be fought, the only such conflict in which we were involved during the 20th century, or since.

You are clearly well-versed in WWII history.

Can you tell me, how was Germany able to first ramp up military industry and then sustain it for the duration of the war?

Where did the money come from?

 

[John]

You are clearly well-versed in WWII history.

Can you tell me, how was Germany able to first ramp up military industry and then sustain it for the duration of the war?

Where did the money come from?

May I answer that. As implied by Medusala else where they basically took a "Kynsian" approach to public works military buildup etc. With all that though the economy was in truth ideologically geared towards war from the moment they seized power. The country was close to being bankrupt at the outbreak of war according to Tooze. Evans covered this a little as we'll.

 

[little graham]

So France wasn't liberated, or belgium, or holland, or <insert list of countries>. True, colonies were largely returned to their original owner, but the shift towards self government largely originated around this period. Yes, Vietnam was a fight, but dozens of other countries were released freely, or with minimal fighting (which usually concerned the timing and/or who took over more than independance itself).

I see that now your struggling with reality.,thats ok cause I still do. You've buried your head in the stand by saying France owned Vietnam. France slaughtered that country and its people, owned them because it had guns and ships,committed atrocious atrocities to maintain an economy,to be able to wage war in Europe and further exploit other pacific nations. France has never been a peaceful nation. They have always been war mongers, Didn't you contribute to the Napoleon thread?

France was not liberated, neither was Belgium or Holland. In fact the Waffen SS ( volunteer army) had large numbers of soldiers from all 3 nations, In fact the 2nd AIf's silent seventh division, 25th and 21st brigade kicked the french foreign legions arse in Syria circa 1940/41.

The Americans had no problem with the french returning to old behaviors after the guns in Europe fell silent, in fact they preferred the Japanese police Vietnam until the french could get back on her feet.The pillaging of that area was to important for the capitalist nations to ever think about granting independence or freeing the oppressed.

There is a very reasonable argument that these bombs saved lives (as compared to an invasion of the japanese home islands). I think some honour can be taken by reducing the casualty count.

So a nation,with no army, no air force, no food, no petrol, no factories ,no navy, completely surrounded by the 4 biggest armies and navys ever, deserved to be nuked, not once,but twice? This was honourable?

Why didn't they take out the political center of the nation then? If it was to save lives? If you take out the countries ability to administrate, to orginise,take out its epicenter....No they had two types of nukes,had to see how each worked,had a victim they could get away with doing it to. All the commercial interests in the manhattan project needed to see results.

Why didn't they just embargoe and let the japs starve to death. JaPan posed no threat to anyone.

Its scary to think about reality, how much bullshit people blindly believe..

 

[JoondalupJ]

Well, i first read that in the winter of 41/42 and the following winter, is where the Russians gained the upper hand on the Germans. Because the Russians were used to fighting in snow and the Germans were poorly equipped. i read that the Russian were beat by Finland for the exact same reasons.

Now I know the Germans were poorly equipped for winter, but i also know this wasn't the issue in that theater. It became a problem once the real issue got in control. Now considering what that issue was,there's no way the fins could of held off Russia.

The Russians king hit the Germans. They had found out when they intended to start the campaign, through intelligence and attacked the day or morning the German offensive was to begin.The Germans were flummoxed from the start , the weather and the desperation of Russia mangled them.
Under quipped or not the Germans were a heavy duty fighting force, they had three armies , north central and south and were just trying for too much and Hitlers ego disagreeing with some of his Generals didn't help.
I 'd say the Germans could fight anyone anywhere snow or not , but they were over stretched and over "wintered " . By then they never had a chance.
And while doing that they were under manned or under used on the Western front , Hitler did some strange things , stopping Dunkirk follow through , stopping the sensible movement of tank divisions before during and after D Day. He and his administration were all over the shop. In fact he ruined himslf , or someone in the German gov or high command helped. He made some strange mistakes. And of course Japan woke the sleeping giant hey? They all stuffed up.

Maybe we were all very lucky that Hitler was a dill, let alone a sadistic nut case. I suspect that the Russia vs the Fins that the Russian armies' weren' t up to scratch at the time.
They certainly were at the time the Nazis turned on them, at the end game. They actually gave the Russians very bad times and also committed atrocities all across the Ukraine and other parts and on into Russia.

Most ridiculous waste of human life on both sides. All because of psychopaths running Germany and Russia.How the hell do these whackos get into power.
well its because the majority of people sit back and say "she'll be right" complacency from the general public is a bad enough thing in say modern Australia , but in those times it was a disaster for the world , good people should have seen it comming in Germany , and in Russia the royalty turned their people against them and gave becrazed power driven w***ers like Stalin a chance to hit the top. He murdered lots of his own too.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

May I answer that. As implied by Medusala else where they basically took a "Kynsian" approach to public works military buildup etc. With all that though the economy was in truth ideologically geared towards war from the moment they seized power. The country was close to being bankrupt at the outbreak of war according to Tooze. Evans covered this a little as we'll.

Um, do you mean Keynesian?

And if so, where did the money come from? You still need to sell bonds to finance Keynesian public spending.

So who was financing the Germans as they built up their military? Who financed the Germans for years during the War?

Remember that this is a nation that was ravaged by WWI and compelled to pay exorbitant reparations (which were only paid off in 2010).

 

[This Is Anfield]

Ah! Life was much more simple growing up in the 60's when it was taken as fact that WW2 was won by the "Brave Tommies" battling "Evil Fritz" & "GI Joe" v "Evil Tojo".
Reality is, IMO, that the survivors mostly won & the dead mostly lost. The "Allies" won & the "Axis" lost. That's the simplistic view of course & an untold no. of factors decided the outcome.
One Country didn't win the war by itself - that would be insulting to the sacrifices made by all countries.

Pity there wasn't the internet & live coverage around during WW2 - some interesting threads could have been seen:
Invade Russia Yes or No?
Matchday 1527 - the Battle of Stalingrad
Firebombing of Dresden
Is Adolf the Right man to coach Nazi Germany?
USA in or USA out?

Very trite I know, but the war was prosecuted in a different time with the values of the time. It was unspeakably cruel, vicious & destructive.
Acts of genocide that most people can't comprehend & unfortunately are still happening to varying degrees.
As a child of parents who were transported to the countryside as Liverpool was bombed to rubble I'm reasonably happy that Britain & Australia were on the side of the victors. And we all know that the victors rewrite history to suit themselves.

 

[skilts]

You are clearly well-versed in WWII history.

Not quite. My fields of study have been somewhat narrow. They include the Pacific War and the Middle East conflicts of WW II, and certain aspects of WW I. As a consequence, I'm unqualified to comment on your questions. Sorry. My research was done with a specific purpose in mind. Prior to this, I had little interest in matters military, other than as an item of general knowledge.

 

[thejester]

I have been reading up on Vichy France and to think that they fought harder against the allies than against the Nazi's is a less than memorable event in their history.

Think that's a pretty dubious statement. Even low estimates suggest 50-60,000 French soldiers died during the fighting in 1940; maybe 1500 did so during Operation Torch, a figure that's also dwarfed by the casualties French North African units took fighting the Axis in Tunisia, Italy and France.

 

[thejester]

You are clearly well-versed in WWII history.

Can you tell me, how was Germany able to first ramp up military industry and then sustain it for the duration of the war?

Where did the money come from?

Get yourself a copy of Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction. Best work on the subject, shouldn't be too expensive either.

 

[BobbyMorri]

Attacking in Winter is the worst thing any army could do. doesnt matter if u got supplies and equipment for it; it is still much harder to fight than in summer. less daylight, harder transport issue caused by the snow and ice; everything is just harder.

 

[Power Raid]

Conventional wisdom for many is that the Soviet sacrifice and effort was the decisive factor in an Allied victory in World War Two and that US triumphalism is misplaced.

But did the USA actually provide the decisive elements?

They did after all:

* Conduct the vast majority of the heavy lifting in the Pacific, and almost all of it in terms of resources and infrastructure.

* Provide the Russians with vast amounts of supplies and equipment that without which, the Russian war effort would have been severely hampered.

* Provide vast amounts of supplies and equipment to the Brits that kept them up and fighting and more importantly, able to offer a European base from which to attack ze Germans.

* By mere dint of their participation they provided troops numbers and the ability to "project" their power that kept the Germans under attack and spending precious resources on numerous front - North Africa, Italy, D-Day and France, the daytime air war over Germany, the u-boat war in the Atlantic.

So, on points decision, did the US actually "win the war" for the Allies?

The victors always get to tell their story and each nation deserves their recognition.

Russia for turning the tide on continental Europe through sacrifice.

England for their resilience to the tough times, their engineering, science and not giving in to Germany's requests to form a Germanic fascist empire.

The US for their mass manufacturing and mobilisation in europe and winning the war in the pacific.

 

[The_Reaper]

We should look at Vietnam and Korea, in my view, if we're to debate American Honour. The Vietnemese wanted rid of their invaders France, a France behaving no different (before and after ww2) than Imperial Japan did. The Americans supported the French.The very France they liberated from Japans ally in ww2, Germany. American honor is where? America only fought for her right (and her white friends right) to rape and pillage, she didn't free anyone, she didn't liberate anyone.

No honor in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. As said,the Germans could of been defeated 18 months before they were. how many millions died as a result of deliberately delaying the end in Europe? This cost Russia dearly, Russia were apparently a victim of NAZI aggression. This not a war that had to be fought.

These are very hard things to compute, after so many years of being taught one version, I know this.Here you have a number of examples of a window to the soul.I could one day get into the royalties German arms manufacturers paid to their American shareholders during ww2, into Swiss bank accounts.Collected at wars end.

Read up on Nanking.

When did the French go around raping people to death by shoving bamboo sticks and bayonets up vaginas?