Opinion The Rebuild Thread

[Azul]

David Ellard has kicked 28 goals in his career, yes I'd trade or delist him. Whether it is this season or next is subject to what is coming back into the club at the time.

I agree he's a year to year proposition but at the moment he's performing a role, as a poor man's Betts. Aside from Menzel, there's no one coming through to play a small-medium goalkicker. If he continues his current form then he, for me, would at least survive into 2015.

If we're particularly active in trade week and could acquire a young small-medium forward cheaply for say a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick (e.g. J Green, D Menzel) then you may have a point of forcing him out.

 

[Magruder]

The list is poorly balanced, not poor per se.

We can come out of this a lot quicker than the "velvet sledge hammer's" prognosis of five years. But it will require sensible drafting, the odd gift horse trade like Docherty, and the rapid blooding of young players.

Add three to five exciting younger players, (including say 1 trade steal/GWS pick-up), another 20 games into Menz/Cripps/Graham etc and the whole look and feel changes dramatically.

The thing is we've actually been at that point before, (about 2010), but we reverted to short-termism. This time we need to keep turning over the list to continually increase the chances of snaffling/finding quality.

 

[LordLucifer]

Whatever.

You are exaggerating and grasping for extremes and creating false dichotomies. Irrational and poor form.

Our team is not "FULL" of mid-sized HBF's - ridiculous assessment. And not everyone has questionable disposal. You are simply writing off the entire team as mid sized HBF's because that suits your agenda, not because its true.

Further if they play to maximum 100% of the time then they are reasonable.... ? Actually they can beat anyone in the league if they did that - as evidenced by our near misses in Micks first year against the very best, only undone by 17 free kicks in a row.

If you have anything of rational, balanced and calm consideration then lets hear it. Extremist, alarmist, reactionary armies of straw men are exactly what we do not need.

Okay, let's not change it at all for two years because it's such a "really good list" as you say.

I'm sure we will be racing up the ladder because of it.

Take off the navy blue glasses and look at it realistically, there is around 13-14 players on the list we can work with for the future and based on Malthouse's belief that you need a core of 30 to challenge for a flag, then we are well short of where we want to be.

Again I clarify, I'm not counting players like Judd, Carrazzo, Simpson, Waite, Scotland etc who will retire over the next couple of seasons.

 

[JustaBattler]

It is hard work to change the list by more than 9-10 players in any one year...the fact that Carlton are about to do it for two years in a row will be a Herculean effort - I believe that players are second guessing who will and who wont be wearing the famous blue colours next year when they front up for training every day - and there is a cost to pay for this type of lack of certainty.

Rowe/Lucas/Bell/Robinson/Watson/Bootsma/McIness/White/Warnock/Mclean - must know that they are on thin ice to what extent though do they look at:

Judd/Waite/Carrazzo/Scotland/Simpson and an injured Kreuzer a leaving Gibbs and see that the Club needs these soon to be retired players covered and kid themselves that they will be 'the ones'?

The year has been a horror start - particular a bunch of surgeries pre-season, Judd's late surgery, Kreuzer's re-injury, Docherty's injury, Armfield still not playing...

I like to think that the clean-out would still be underway - irrespective of the above and even if Carlton were 4-0 up and leading the competition...

Disappointing to see Watson/Bell not making the grade and Garlett/Waite/McLean not playing in line with their experience and seniority - very disappointing in the context of the injuries and outs we are still carrying.

Go the Northern Blues - hopefully 5-6 of you guys will be pushing for starting 22 sooner rather than later.

 

[HalloweenJack]

It is hard work to change the list by more than 9-10 players in any one year...the fact that Carlton are about to do it for two years in a row will be a Herculean effort - I believe that players are second guessing who will and who wont be wearing the famous blue colours next year when they front up for training every day - and there is a cost to pay for this type of lack of certainty.

The players should be busting a gut if that's the case.

 

[Jeremias]

I agree he's a year to year proposition but at the moment he's performing a role, as a poor man's Betts. Aside from Menzel, there's no one coming through to play a small-medium goalkicker. If he continues his current form then he, for me, would at least survive into 2015.

Agree with your assessment of Ellard other than him potentially chipping in for 30-40 goals. Tries his hardest but that'd be a Herculean effort from him. If we can get 20 goals from him he'll have well and truly played his part considering he's not a specialist forward.

He is a limited footballer but at this stage he's clearly not in danger of losing his spot on the list at the end of the year & to suggest as such is ridiculous.

With regards to small/medium goal kickers coming through, keep an eye on Reynolds, Johnson & Temay. All three of them have joined us in the past 18 months who could possibly develop and play that role heading forward. All of them have a fair way to go but they certainly have some promise.

 

[Malifice]

Liked for use of the word dichotomies.

Its a very cromulent word.

 

[Azul]

Agree with your assessment of Ellard other than him potentially chipping in for 30-40 goals. Tries his hardest but that'd be a Herculean effort from him. If we can get 20 goals from him he'll have well and truly played his part considering he's not a specialist forward.

Has kicked 6 from 4, so is on target for 33! I'd like him to spend time in the middle more, obviously.

 

[Sublime]

Has kicked 6 from 4, so is on target for 33! I'd like him to spend time in the middle more, obviously.

If we need Ellard playing in the midfield then we're really struggling. Only place i can see him being needed is as his current position of small forward. If he can't stick there then we have no need for him i don't think.

 

[Jeremias]

Has kicked 6 from 4, so is on target for 33! I'd like him to spend time in the middle more, obviously.

I'm no slouch at Prep level mathematics, either!

Has done well thus far this season, but 30+ is incredibly optimistic. 20 and I'll be very pleased.

If we need Ellard playing in the midfield then we're really struggling. Only place i can see him being needed is as his current position of small forward. If he can't stick there then we have no need for him i don't think.

The way modern footy is played we effectively need anyone not filling a key position post in the side to be able to contribute through the middle of the ground, if need be.

The best sides generally have approx. 16 players on match day who can rotate through if required.

If Ellard is in the senior side it won't be as a specialist small forward. We can't afford to have that.

 

[Sublime]

I'm no slouch at Prep level mathematics, either!

Has done well thus far this season, but 30+ is incredibly optimistic. 20 and I'll be very pleased.



The way modern footy is played we effectively need anyone not filling a key position post in the side to be able to contribute through the middle of the ground, if need be.

The best sides generally have approx. 16 players on match day who can rotate through if required.

If Ellard is in the senior side it won't be as a specialist small forward. We can't afford to have that.

Well, i meant primarily as a small forward, but yes of course he can move into the midfield in short bursts, as he is a midfielder at heart (just not a full time AFL level one).

If we have him in as primarily a midfielder as we have in previous years then we're in trouble. If he can't be effective in his small forward role, then we need to look elsewhere at the end of the year IMO.

 

[rp84]

Would you put Earl Spalding as a top 10 or top 20 forward when he was playing?

The thing is that we have mismanaged Humphrey ever since he came back from his knee injury. He should have spent the rest of 2011 playing in the Bullants. But no... we rushed him back into the seniors and in 2012, he spent most of the year having fluid buildup drained from his keep.

And now he has this foot injury that could spell the end of his career. But, if we can get him over that, let him recover at a slower pace for this year and then give him a full unrestricted pre-season, then he should get back to full flight next year.

And then we build the club around him. Make him a franchise player for us...

Just slightly too young to remember him well. Was very serviceable from my young memory.

Not sure cas will be a player. Has some tools and is improving. Also think he is worth persisting with for another one or two years. Dont think he is what we should be striving for though.

 

[rp84]

Or we are throwing the baby out with the bath water - which is also a crime.

We have not criminally overrated our list. Its actually a bloody good list, the players are not performing however and the game plan is partly the reason why.

We need a decent forward, and one more key backman and we are in a much better position. If krueze was fit and firing he would be amongst the best mobile ruckman in the AFL.

Admittedly he is not - which has exposed Warnocks deficiencies.

Admittedly Waite has gone AWOL as has Garlett which means Henderson has gone back and we are back to square one with Walker needing to go forward and reliance on Casboult.

Henderson back is good for the back, and Rowe is doing reasonably well - however when the opposition is firing in 80 shots to your 30 its no wonder the backs are going to get smashed.

Midfield is losing it because of the game plan. We spend half an hour taking it around the boundary line, allowing them time to man up (see Melbourne), then surprise surprise they rebound it straight down the guts and score a goal on us.

We need a better plan, and a forward, and some commitment.

Im not quite sure where the evidence is for this. We one of the weakest midfields in the league. We have judd, carrots, scotland, waite in the way out. We have the least talented forward line in the comp. We also have one of the poorer defenses and defensive running teams in the comp. We have a talented but injury prone ruck, followed by two AFL failures.

I'm not quite sure how far your head is stuck in the sand? Throw the baby out with the bathwater?

All of the EVIDENCE is quite damning so far. Hoping against the odds we will turn it around seems a bit silly to me. Action will be taken.

If we carry on with this god awful game plan, which is I feel the major reason for lack of confidence, this season and any others following the plan are doomed.

 

[rp84]

While i do share your doubts over Kruz longevity, i think his overall athleticism at the ruck position is still really good. Gets down around his ankles well still. From what i've heard, his hip is still a pretty big issue for him and is probably the most likely thing to stop him playing past 30. He will no doubt require management from here on in, but his size for a ruck is just fine. 200cm isn't small for a ruck considering dominant ruckman like Minson & Mumford are both under 200cm.

The other two are monsters though. MK is not. The best rucks are generally ove 200, monsters, or athletic freaks.

MK can still get down below his knees, however his quickness and agility are gone. Many people raved about him being a mid. Can never see that happening now. The poor kidshas two of the worst injuries a big man can get.

He was drafted with awful hip injuries too. That was always a massive risk.

 

[Dramoth]

He was drafted with bone spurs on his hips that the club corrected immediately. He didnt have any hip injuries.

 

[Sublime]

He was drafted with bone spurs on his hips that the club corrected immediately. He didnt have any hip injuries.

I know its not the rumour thread, i've just heard that his hip issues are ongoing and will be after he's finished playing.

 

[Red Bull]

I'm confused as to what you believe Kernahan, McKay & Swann are trying to save themselves from.

Kernahan has already announced he is stepping down & the legacy he leaves the club cannot be diminished by the poor performances of a group of players who don't share the same passion for the club that Sticks does. He does not have to save himself from anything.

McKay is another Carlton person whose passion for the club runs deeper than many of our players & is still relatively new to the role he is in. Some Carlton supporters want to pin the blame on McKay for many of the errors of his predecessor (Icke). At the end of the day McKay could walk from the club tomorrow & be as well off, if not better off, elsewhere. He also does not have to save himself from anything.

Swann is a football administrator with plenty of runs on the board having overseen the financial rescue of the Williamstown Football Club in the '90s, the Collingwood Football Club in the '00s & of course our football club over the last half a dozen years. He could walk tomorrow & he would be offered a high salary elsewhere straight away & he would leave with the club in a sounder financial position than it has been since the mid '90s. He also has nothing to save himself from.

FWIW, when Tim Watson talks about the fish rotting at the head first, he should have a look closer to home. It should be no surprise that Essendope cheated under the recent watch of Evans & Hird. The club has a history of cheating when those family names have been involved with the club at a high level.

My mistake then ... appears everythings going along swimmingly

As you were ...

How did i know this would be your response ... truely one of the great defenders !!

 

[Silvagnis]

The other two are monsters though. MK is not. The best rucks are generally ove 200, monsters, or athletic freaks.

MK can still get down below his knees, however his quickness and agility are gone. Many people raved about him being a mid. Can never see that happening now. The poor kidshas two of the worst injuries a big man can get.

He was drafted with awful hip injuries too. That was always a massive risk.

What do you mean by monsters?

They're the same height as Kreuzer.

Kreuzer towelled Mumford after he took over from an injured Hampson.

You're a monster if you can handle Goldstein and beat him around the ground.

Hitouts are overrated. Size and tap work hasn't helped Warnock and Hampson. Hawks recruited McEvoy who isn't a centre square beast. Around the ground ruck play is now King.

Selwood was a risk with his knee injuries.

 

[zeeCFC]

Kreuzer dominated Minson just 6 weeks ago

 

[Magruder]

If we need Ellard playing in the midfield then we're really struggling. Only place i can see him being needed is as his current position of small forward. If he can't stick there then we have no need for him i don't think.

We don't have a need for a perm small forward in my view. However, I'd back him to exert more pressure than Jeffy at the mo.

stays at the end of the year, but only because there will be more pressing departures.

 

[rp84]

He was drafted with bone spurs on his hips that the club corrected immediately. He didnt have any hip injuries.

An issue requiring immediate corrective surgery is certainly an issue. Surgery doesnt just 'fix' things. Cutting bones is always a traumatic undertaking.

 

[Dramoth]

An issue requiring immediate corrective surgery is certainly an issue. Surgery doesnt just 'fix' things. Cutting bones is always a traumatic undertaking.

They dont cut the bone. They shave away the excess bone mass from the region.

That being said, our medico's dont seem to have all that good a rep when handling the treatment and rehab of some of our kids.

 

[BluStreak]

Where is there left to sell games to now?

Canberra

 

[mediumsizered]

My mistake then ... appears everythings going along swimmingly

As you were ...

How did i know this would be your response ... truely one of the great defenders !!

Seriously, tell me what Kernahan, McKay & Swann are trying to save themselves from. Or were you just parroting what the media was reporting (the same media that has suggested both Tom Elliott & Fraser Brown were considering putting their hands up for the club presidency, only to have both individuals deny any such interest).

There is nothing the media likes more than to chip away at a club who is having a bad time of it, until they score some scalps. The fact the media have been running headlines along the lines of Kernahan facing the chop, when we all know he stated last year that 2014 would be his last year at the helm of the club & he has subsequently advised he will be standing down after the 150th celebration just gives you a good idea of the misinformation the media peddle. They target an audience of uninformed or disinterested supporters of the club to help build momentum & then they speak to a high profile dial-a-quote supporter & it rolls on from there.

By all means though if you would rather believe the likes of Wilson, Pierik, Connolly etc over the actual individuals involved, go for it. You will be among those who ensure these sharks remain gainfully employed.

 

[blueboy25]

Rebuild smebuild.

All the talk is about how we don't have any depth, our midfield is weak, forward line is non existent and we have no good kids.

In 2011 we were a kick away from a prelim final and we had the following names play that evening against a red hot eagles side at Subiaco: O'Hailpin, Thornton, Joseph, Davies, Duigan, Ellard, Armfield and Laidler.

Our key forwards were the big irishman and T Bird and we lost T bird before half time. We also had Gibbs and Kruezer out.

What does this tell me?

That it is not always about the cattle that run out on to the park but its about the game plan and the players adhering to it, the willingness of the players to have a go, the pride in pulling on that navy blue jumper with the white CFC monogram that most of us would give up our left aggot to wear.