Starchamber ?
Opinion The Rebuild Thread
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Starchamber ?
Indeed, the 'delist Brock' murmurs seem to coincide with agitation over 'why isn't Graham getting a game?' If we answer the latter, the scapegoat mightn't be McLean at all.
We started the season with 36 players (allowing for 2 extra rookies). Duigan and Bootsma have since departed. That's (depending on where we finish) picks 3, 21, 39 and 57 in the draft. So before we delist anyone, consider whether said delistee is worth higher than pick 75 in the draft.
Brock will probably survive because there are others in the VFL not getting a game and/or players with better trade potential. McKay (or whoever's now running the football department) will be a busy person during trade week.
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Hold onto McInnes because he is 22. Definitely yes.
Trade Watson even though he is 21.
And with his pace, he'll never be anything other than walk-up start.
Koutafidamidis
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i think a lot of people get caught up with names,
i for one couldn't care less who we delist or keep as long as we win
I seriously don't care, they are just employees, I owe them nothing ........
Get a winning team and win flags and then I'll be impressed, until then anyone is expendable
i for one couldn't care less who we delist or keep as long as we win
I seriously don't care, they are just employees, I owe them nothing ........
Get a winning team and win flags and then I'll be impressed, until then anyone is expendable
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He may still have some value to clubs being a former first round pick. I can't see where the development could come from with him but if Richmond could offer us that pick for Hampson it proves that there's hope for all
Spot on post.
thylacine60
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Not much point you posting here for another 5 or so years then. Adios.
Koutafidamidis
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now why you wanna go and do that love huh?
If he is as you say, "in our best side", then isn't that a concern to you about how good our list is ??
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Of course it is, our list is possibly the worst in the league atm.
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I feel the same way when people champion keeping Kreuzer because we need to let him get his body right but then want to delist McInnes
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Brisbane's and StKilda are slightly worse but not by a long way. I reckon most judges would have saidn the same thing about Port 3 years ago though so I reckon as long as we make the tough calls we can turn it around quickly, provided we get it right.
So why are you advocating that he should be retained ??
The only way to improve the list is to start delisting players as their contracts come up or trade out those you can get a deal for. McLean has shown this year especially that he is just too slow, at times not interested and he makes some very poor decisions/skill executions at critical times in a match.
We could get the same level of output from a raw U/18 player and still have the opportunity for some upside over many years.
I don't think anyone wants to delist McInnes per sé, if they recall his pre-injury form.
It's more of a case that Mick seems to have made a decision on him by not promoting him over recent weeks when Henderson, Jamison and White have all been unavailable.
The kid has talent. I hope, hypothetically, he does 'a Laidler' at a new club.
If ShanDog was in charge of our list:
Trade/Delist:
Kane Lucas - we can't seem to get the best out of him, so he is essentially no good to us. Trade him out west (or anywhere) for a pick in the 30's or a fringe youngster who fills a need for our team.
Robert Warnock - in this day and age, Warnock can't compete around the ground and therefore leaves us a man short after a ball up. Contracted through 2015 so trade him if we can.
Brock McLean - there is more upside in playing someone like Graham or Cripps in his position than having Brock there. Given another pre-season, I expect those young guys to be in the team every week and therefore McLean gets the chop. Not sure when his contract is done, so trade or delist depending on that.
Jarrad Waite - a tough decision to make but after so long, it's time to say "thanks for your service Jarrad" and let him go. Again, unsure of contract status so take a trade if we can get one or just delist. He is a B-grade player these days and isn't realistically in the picture for the club's future success.
David Ellard - contract up at the end of the year as far as we know. Sorry David, the future of the club is not with you.
Other notes:
Matthew Watson - still quite young, still contracted until the end of 2015. Given Jamison isnt getting younger, we need to persist for at least one more year.
Mitch Robinson - would want to have a very good year in 2015 as a fwd/mid to remain on the list beyond that.
Dennis Armfield - contracted through 2015 and hasnt really got trade currency.
Jefferey Garlett - the only speedy small fwd left on our list. Survives one more year.
Simon White - worth keeping for defensive depth while Giles etc are still developing.
Andrew Carrazzo - unless there is a big change in form next year, he shouldnt have his contract renewed at the end of 2015.
Jaryd Cachia (rookie) - can we re-rookie? Unsure. May need him for midfield depth considering the turnover I am suggesting.
Cameron Wood (rookie) - re-rookie as backup to a Kreuzer/Casboult/Rowe ruck combination in case there is a serious injury.
Blaine Johnson (rookie) - would love to see him play a few more games and if worthwhile, elevate to the seniors or re-rookie at least.
The rest are good to be retained without caveat or too raw to make comment on.
Thats a turnover of EIGHT players (including the retired/sacked players already) without really blinking. There are plenty on the fringe too but its a balance between too much change and too little. I feel about eight is right.
We need to trade in a solid young mid who could be an A-grader, one massive trade for a gun KPF and if possible, sure up the defence with a fringe backman from another team. Any other trades that benefit the structure are of course welcome. If we have a repeat of last year's trading, it will be a very good couple of years in that regard.
Should pick at least 4 players in the draft and simply go for the best tall there is with an early pick and pure midfielders from therein. Disposal and decision-making are the key things we want.
TL;DR? Trade or delist Lucas, Warnock, McLean, Waite and Ellard. Go hard for a gun KPF trade and also use our first pick on the best 18 year old forward we can get. Draft midfielders from there.
Trade/Delist:
Kane Lucas - we can't seem to get the best out of him, so he is essentially no good to us. Trade him out west (or anywhere) for a pick in the 30's or a fringe youngster who fills a need for our team.
Robert Warnock - in this day and age, Warnock can't compete around the ground and therefore leaves us a man short after a ball up. Contracted through 2015 so trade him if we can.
Brock McLean - there is more upside in playing someone like Graham or Cripps in his position than having Brock there. Given another pre-season, I expect those young guys to be in the team every week and therefore McLean gets the chop. Not sure when his contract is done, so trade or delist depending on that.
Jarrad Waite - a tough decision to make but after so long, it's time to say "thanks for your service Jarrad" and let him go. Again, unsure of contract status so take a trade if we can get one or just delist. He is a B-grade player these days and isn't realistically in the picture for the club's future success.
David Ellard - contract up at the end of the year as far as we know. Sorry David, the future of the club is not with you.
Other notes:
Matthew Watson - still quite young, still contracted until the end of 2015. Given Jamison isnt getting younger, we need to persist for at least one more year.
Mitch Robinson - would want to have a very good year in 2015 as a fwd/mid to remain on the list beyond that.
Dennis Armfield - contracted through 2015 and hasnt really got trade currency.
Jefferey Garlett - the only speedy small fwd left on our list. Survives one more year.
Simon White - worth keeping for defensive depth while Giles etc are still developing.
Andrew Carrazzo - unless there is a big change in form next year, he shouldnt have his contract renewed at the end of 2015.
Jaryd Cachia (rookie) - can we re-rookie? Unsure. May need him for midfield depth considering the turnover I am suggesting.
Cameron Wood (rookie) - re-rookie as backup to a Kreuzer/Casboult/Rowe ruck combination in case there is a serious injury.
Blaine Johnson (rookie) - would love to see him play a few more games and if worthwhile, elevate to the seniors or re-rookie at least.
The rest are good to be retained without caveat or too raw to make comment on.
Thats a turnover of EIGHT players (including the retired/sacked players already) without really blinking. There are plenty on the fringe too but its a balance between too much change and too little. I feel about eight is right.
We need to trade in a solid young mid who could be an A-grader, one massive trade for a gun KPF and if possible, sure up the defence with a fringe backman from another team. Any other trades that benefit the structure are of course welcome. If we have a repeat of last year's trading, it will be a very good couple of years in that regard.
Should pick at least 4 players in the draft and simply go for the best tall there is with an early pick and pure midfielders from therein. Disposal and decision-making are the key things we want.
TL;DR? Trade or delist Lucas, Warnock, McLean, Waite and Ellard. Go hard for a gun KPF trade and also use our first pick on the best 18 year old forward we can get. Draft midfielders from there.
Some I agree with, others I don't but that's the nature of forums.
Robinson is contracted to the end of this year, that may change your recommendation on what to do with him.
WRT Robinson, he is one who I keep because I think too many changes can be destabilising. I want change, but am a bit more conservative about it than some. There is no doubt our list needs some serious amending if we want to win a flag, but I expect the change and improvement to be steady and over time rather than the overnight (i.e. one year to the next) extreme improvement some people seem to think possible.
There have been many comparisons made with Port and their extreme rise but as some have pointed out it was 3, maybe 4, years of drafts and trades that meant their list was balanced and capable of such improvement in 2013/2014. I imagine we are doing the same with the improvement to come in 2015 and (more significantly) 2016.
Do you disagree with the players I listed as trade/delist? Or moreso the ones I didn't say?
Lucas, McLean, Waite & Ellard - all gone one way or another !!
Warnock should be gone I agree, however he is contracted for next year so unless we can get a decent trade, it might be hard to fling him due to the salary cap implications.
Watson & Armfield should also be shown the door but are contracted for next year so it would depend on if a trade was on offer or they can be absorbed under the salary cap.
Garlett is out of contract this year and I suspect there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we are not aware of about him, he's fallen badly from grace and I wouldn't be offering him another contract.
White is also out of contract this year but has shown enough improvement that he has earnt another season.
Carrazzo is out on his legs right now, he has no trade value and due to the contract, should be sent to the seconds for 2015 to mentor some of the young guys unless we can convince him to retire.
Cachia will be a casualty, we will be stocking up on better credentialed mids via trades & the draft.
Wood, well I really don't know what to say about him. Depends if a trade could be found for Warnock, if Kreuzer comes back fit etc. Too many "balls in the air" right now for a definitive answer.
Johnson should be promoted to the senior list pronto, he showed a little in that one game for us to persist with and at the expense of some of the regular plodders.
Others you didn't mention who are out of contract this year are Judd (hopefully a 1-year extension), Rowe (deserves another season), Temay (facing the axe), McInnes (facing the axe), Casboult (hopefully a 1-year extension), Graham (hopefully a 1-year extension), Menzel (sign him to a long-term deal).
I can't see why Watson shouldn't be given another year. He hasn't come on like we all hoped when he was drafted but is still quite young. Given the lack of young key backs knocking down the door for selection, I feel we might be overreaching if we cut him at the end of this season. With the changeover of personnel we may have, there will be plenty of opportunity to draft or trade for another backman without taking Watson out of the picture completely.
Can understand the thinking behind that but he has upside and is (again) still young. We have no other small crumbing forwards of his ilk which is why I think persisting one more year is fair.
Not sure why you think Temay is under so much pressure myself. Has been with us for 2 seasons?
McInnes showed he can be quality. No reason to cut him away just yet.
The rest of what you said is similar to my thoughts though.
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Logic dictates that if a guy is in the seniors most weeks there are a number of others closer to getting the chop.
Ideally he'll get pushed out of the side by Cripps, Graham and Holman (amongst others) over time, until then he serves a purpose as both a hard body and as a leader.
Koutafidamidis
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like a boss
Would give my left knacker for Watson to kick on and become a 'real' player for us, nothing would please me more, just can't see it happening at the present rate. There is every chance he will see out his contract next year unless they decide to find a trade for him.
Garlett isn't actually as "young" as you think, he's about to turn 25 in August. It'd also be great if he could deliver on a consistent basis but his form does seem to yo-yo a lot (near BOG one week and then MIA the next). One season of 43 goals was great but will he ever do that again without Eddie to hold his hand ?? The stat that worries me most is that in the previous 5 seasons, he has averaged 19.6 games per season but thus far this season has managed just 9 and it's hard to know if or when he will add to that tally. Is he missing out purely on poor form or is it partly to do with Malthouse's 'favouritism' to others or a combination of both ??
Temay just doesn't appear to be doing anything of note. The NB watchers never seem to be talking about him in the same breath as they may about Graham etc. Unless there's something going on with him that we cannot see in matches or at training, I am not confident at all about his future.
McInness looked like a real player for a while but he just doesn't seem to be the same player since that unfortunate knee injury. The other thing is what role would you seem him playing ?? The defence already has Docherty, Yarran, Buckley, Tuohy & Walker all vying for the non-key posts which makes him the last in the pecking order to me.
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