Discussion on Pick #58 - Harry Dear

[Golumless]

People on this board have raved for months about Jenkins 40 goals and how he had an amazing season...
His season was OK, average... nothing special.

People in this thread have questioned whether Dear could reach that standard. All I said is that out of his 40 goals a lot of them were cheapies who couldve been kicked by anyone, therefore I dont think its a stretch to say Dear COULD be at his level if not better within the time frame specified...

No matter on how they are scored, 40 goals from a 2nd forward in this day and age equates to an excellent season.

 

[Mattrox]

Oh look he took a mark once.
Once again, youtube doesnt show all the ones he drops does it, fool?

Yep, sure enough we're up 100+ points and its virtually uncontested as he knees the other bloke out the way.
Wheres that kinda attack on the ball the rest of the time?

He's done it more than once. You are saying "he can't mark". Clearly this is incorrect, even in the hyberbolic world of BF.

 

[fabs33]

We all admire players for their ability to run and spread, so that they can provide an option for their team mates, but it's surprising that running to one of the most important areas of the field is actually frowned upon by some.

I'm not frowning upon running there. Its great that he does that and can finish with his speed and very occasionally his strength.

Really?

To be fair about 25 of those goals my grandma could've kicked with handballs over the top.

All I said is that out of his 40 goals a lot of them were cheapies who couldve been kicked by anyone, therefore I dont think its a stretch to say Dear COULD be at his level if not better within the time frame specified...

Doesn't look like it to me.

Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, those "cheapies" aren't a result of luck but rather that of a combination of work rate and speed that not every player his size possesses, regardless of how much time they spend on an AFL list. Or are you that stubborn that you'd willingly lie to yourself by falling for the ludicrous belief that Jenkins' opponents enjoy seeing him alone in our forward line?

 

[Pugsley]

We should tie JJ's hands behind his back, make it as difficult as possible for him to score goals.

Just tie his shoelaces together, blindfold him & tie his hands behind his back and then we'll see how good a forward he is !!!!!

 

[DroppingTheBall]

He'd still kick 20 with his nose. Talk about lazy!

Sent from my HTC_0P6B using Tapatalk

 

[splat868]

OK very extreme example but if a player just stands in the goal square for the entire game, every game, he'll probably get 50 goals in a season.
Now is he in the right position to kick goals?...yes.
Is he contributing as much as he can to team success?...no.

Jenkins had a decent year, but he has a LONG way to go, and it is nowhere near out of the realms of possibility that someone of Dear's ilk cant get to that point in 3-4 seasons.

Maybe you should coach.

Just not at the Crows please.

Genius thinking that you can plonk any plodder in the goal square to get 50 goals in a season, why haven't the coaches thought of this?

At least 8 coaches are doing it wrong with only 10 players kicking 50 plus in 2014.

 

[DangerSloane]

Maybe you should coach.

Just not at the Crows please.

Genius thinking that you can plonk any plodder in the goal square to get 50 goals in a season, why haven't the coaches thought of this?

At least 8 coaches are doing it wrong with only 10 players kicking 50 plus in 2014.

Maybe you should be an english teacher, just not at any school I might have contact with.
You obviously failed comprehension.

IF a coach put a player in the goal square for the entire game he probably would get 50 goals in a season. BUT AS I SPECIFICALLY SAID he would not be contributing to team success as he might cost more than 50 goals at the other end by letting his opponent run off free.

Now this is clearly an extreme example, but you guys are hanging your hats purely on Jenkins goal numbers which are clearly inflated due to the number of easy goals he received from the work of others. You arent looking at his poor defensive efforts, lack of marking ability etc.

 

[DangerSloane]

Really?


Doesn't look like it to me.

Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, those "cheapies" aren't a result of luck but rather that of a combination of work rate and speed that not every player his size possesses, regardless of how much time they spend on an AFL list. Or are you that stubborn that you'd willingly lie to yourself by falling for the ludicrous belief that Jenkins' opponents enjoy seeing him alone in our forward line?

Or a combination of the work rate and speed of the other players?
His work rate is only one way...this gets ignored because he kicks a few goals.

If I were a KPD I'd love to match up on Jenkins, knowing full well that hes never going to outmark you or chase you.

 

[DangerSloane]

No matter on how they are scored, 40 goals from a 2nd forward in this day and age equates to an excellent season.

OK given this WHY the hell was Lewis Johnston dropped?
He was dominating....he kicked 3 goals a game...

He was set to kick 66 for the season. For a 3rd forward thats out of this world!!!!!!

Oh wait, maybe its because he's lazy and doesnt chase/defend.....

 

[Elder van Berlo]

Goal doesn't count. Cheapie from a metre out.

 

[DangerSloane]

This is a side thats finished out of the 8 in 4 of 5 years with 2 sacked coaches and a 3rd with a hard nosed reputation.

Fair to say EVERY spot is up for grabs

Finally....someone that sees the big picture.

We finished 10th, with a top 6 squad, or according to half of this board a top 2 squad.

 

[cmndstab]

I don't understand why you continue to paint statements that nobody has made as some kind of group consensus, but then kick up a huge fuss when someone quotes what you said without seeing your hidden meanings.

Let's try to break this down for you. First of all, nobody has said Jenkins' spot is not up for grabs, or that Dear cannot reach his form within 3-5 years. That would be a stupid thing to say about any draftee, who knows how good any of them will be after 5 years. They could be the best in the comp, or delisted.

Nobody has said Jenkins' spot in the team is assured.

What they have said is that Jenkins had a quality season, and that your assessment of him as some kind of detriment to the team who got his goals through a combination of luck and laziness is completely unfair. And I agree with them.

Sure, any coach could stick a player in the goal square all game. I don't think they'd get 50 goals - it wouldn't exactly be a difficult matchup for an opposition coach. Just put a tall defender on him to spoil the ball over the line every time they kick to him. He'd be lucky to score 10 goals in the season let alone 50. Kind of a pointless example any since Jenkins doesn't just stand in the square all game.

Jenkins very rarely got easy goals because he was standing still. Most of the time it was because he read the play well enough to duck out back, and had the athleticism to be the first player back there. You can make a reasonable argument that Jenkins should try to stay in the contest more often, but that's not what you're doing.

 

[DangerSloane]

I don't understand why you continue to paint statements that nobody has made as some kind of group consensus, but then kick up a huge fuss when someone quotes what you said without seeing your hidden meanings.

Let's try to break this down for you. First of all, nobody has said Jenkins' spot is not up for grabs, or that Dear cannot reach his form within 3-5 years. That would be a stupid thing to say about any draftee, who knows how good any of them will be after 5 years. They could be the best in the comp, or delisted.

Nobody has said Jenkins' spot in the team is assured.

What they have said is that Jenkins had a quality season, and that your assessment of him as some kind of detriment to the team who got his goals through a combination of luck and laziness is completely unfair. And I agree with them.

Sure, any coach could stick a player in the goal square all game. I don't think they'd get 50 goals - it wouldn't exactly be a difficult matchup for an opposition coach. Just put a tall defender on him to spoil the ball over the line every time they kick to him. He'd be lucky to score 10 goals in the season let alone 50. Kind of a pointless example any since Jenkins doesn't just stand in the square all game.

Jenkins very rarely got easy goals because he was standing still. Most of the time it was because he read the play well enough to duck out back, and had the athleticism to be the first player back there. You can make a reasonable argument that Jenkins should try to stay in the contest more often, but that's not what you're doing.

Thats exactly what I'm doing.
I'm saying that there are large holes in his game, and they have had wallpaper put over the top of them in the form of a few extra goals.
But look maybe Dear and Lowden wont reach the same level as Jenkins. I just dont see why they cant, because IMO he's not playing nearly as well as people are alluding to.
The ironic thing is theyre probably the same people that said the same thing when Jenkins came to the club.

In modern footy goals are not simply enough to make a player. Otherwise, once again, why was Lewis Johnston delisted?

 

[Sanders]

A player can't kick 40 goals in a season by hanging back in the goal square and get cheap goals over the top without the opposition being very happy with that arrangement

Which is not to say that they aren't or couldn't be thrilled with that theoretical trade off. It's why Craigy had such an issue with Tex's defensive pressure

A forward hanging back, without any defensive pressure will cost you a lot more than 2 goals a game. A lot more.

Which is not say anything about whether JJ is or isn't that type of player. But you're all wrong if you think an opposition coach would not gladly gift those cheapies On their terms

I do think JJ does get a few more cheapies than the average, and could make his defender more accountable. Make of that what you will

 

[DangerSloane]

A player can't kick 40 goals in a season by hanging back in the goal square and get cheap goals over the top without the opposition being very happy with that arrangement

Which is not to say that they aren't or couldn't be thrilled with that theoretical trade off. It's why Craigy had such an issue with Tex's defensive pressure

A forward hanging back, without any defensive pressure will cost you a lot more than 2 goals a game. A lot more.

Which is not say anything about whether JJ is or isn't that type of player. But you're all wrong if you think an opposition coach would not gladly gift those cheapies On their terms

I do think JJ does get a few more cheapies than the average, and could make his defender more accountable. Make of that what you will

AMEN!

 

[cmndstab]

AMEN!

He wasn't agreeing with your stance so far in this thread.

 

[DangerSloane]

He wasn't agreeing with your stance so far in this thread.

Actually he couldnt have echoed my point better.

My stance in this thread is that our recruits can get to JJ's level because although hes kicked a few goals he doesnt have a defensive side and doesnt take enough marks.

"I do think JJ does get a few more cheapies than the average, and could make his defender more accountable. Make of that what you will"

I make of that that he at least somewhat agrees with what I've been saying all along.

I cant see a coach like Walsh taking poor defensive efforts...

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

Hopefully we don't have many "oh dear, Harry!!!!" moments.

 

[fabs33]

Or a combination of the work rate and speed of the other players?
His work rate is only one way...this gets ignored because he kicks a few goals.

If I were a KPD I'd love to match up on Jenkins, knowing full well that hes never going to outmark you or chase you.

If you really believe his work rate on defence is such a great issue then how about providing some evidence, you're not likely to sway many opinions otherwise.

 

[fabs33]

Actually he couldnt have echoed my point better.

My stance in this thread is that our recruits can get to JJ's level because although hes kicked a few goals he doesnt have a defensive side and doesnt take enough marks.

"I do think JJ does get a few more cheapies than the average, and could make his defender more accountable. Make of that what you will"

I make of that that he at least somewhat agrees with what I've been saying all along.

I cant see a coach like Walsh taking poor defensive efforts...

Sanders sees a wave where you see a tsunami.

 

[Bacon8]

In modern footy goals are not simply enough to make a player. Otherwise, once again, why was Lewis Johnston delisted?

Conversely, why wasn't Jenkins delist?

Because he can do those things.

Can he do them better? Sure.

 

[DangerSloane]

Conversely, why wasn't Jenkins delist?

Because he can do those things.

Can he do them better? Sure.

Can he do them better than Johnston or Smack. Yes, clearly.

Can he do them as well as a new recruit in a few years, maybe/maybe not.

I just dont think he's as effective as people think, just because he kicked a good goal tally.

If you really believe his work rate on defence is such a great issue then how about providing some evidence, you're not likely to sway many opinions otherwise.

Its very difficult to provide evidence of something that isnt on film, they dont have a youtube video of dropped marks, or poor tackles or crappy chases.
Im sure the club will hvae all the necessary information/film, and from what I understand its a weakness that has previously been identified.

 

[DangerSloane]

Sanders sees a wave where you see a tsunami.

No I saw a wave too, but when I pointed out that wave to fellow beachgoers, they panicked and screamed like it was a tsunami.

 

[fabs33]

Its very difficult to provide evidence of something that isnt on film, they dont have a youtube video of dropped marks, or poor tackles or crappy chases.
Im sure the club will hvae all the necessary information/film, and from what I understand its a weakness that has previously been identified.

There are other things you could try as evidence besides bits and pieces of footage, but it's not my place to give you advice considering I'm on the opposition's side.

 

[fabs33]

No I saw a wave too, but when I pointed out that wave to fellow beachgoers, they panicked and screamed like it was a tsunami.

You've twisted much of what others have said so far so I'm not surprised that you see it that way.