Bruce Francis

[D-N-R]

```

As I said above, from what I've read. I think David knew about the program, IMO, David was not being honest.
I don't recall the exact timing of the consent forms.

But the story was the players asked for them to be sure everything they were taking was above board since this was a very new and different program for them

I find it hard to believe that Evans couldn't have known of the program. It beggars belief.

I find it equally odd that Hird didn't know about the consent forms (he 'found' them, not Evans), considering he was the one who implicitly stated that the program "must have the players' consent". You'd think that all the information, education and consent was an integral part of the way the program was set up. I thought the consent forms came after the program had started, but I'm not sure.

 

[TerryWallet]

Agree with what you said about the treatment of BF. Childish insults don't advance the discussion.

Re; the bolded. I assume this means that Alavi had more than one conversation with investigators and spoke to more than one, but only said what he said to one of them. (i.e. didn't repeat the allegation.)

The thing with the interim report is that there may have been stuff that ASADA didn't allow the AFL to see, or stuff that was discovered after. Any number of things could have happened since its report or been omitted, meaning that it is an incomplete picture of events and of ASADAs case they are presenting to the Tribunal.

All 4 of Alavi's interviews with ASADA were after the interim report.

 

[DonsRule]

I find it hard to believe that Evans couldn't have known of the program. It beggars belief.

I find it equally odd that Hird didn't know about the consent forms (he 'found' them, not Evans), considering he was the one who implicitly stated that the program "must have the players' consent". You'd think that all the information, education and consent was an integral part of the way the program was set up. I thought the consent forms came after the program had started, but I'm not sure.

I think it was saying Hird is accusing David of lying about finding the consent firms.

Along teh lines of Monday David says he found the consent forms.

Tuesday Hird learns that David said he discovered the consent forms the day before. Hird claims that is a lie....I think

 

[Satan]

```

As I said above, from what I've read. I think David knew about the program, IMO, David was not being honest.
I don't recall the exact timing of the consent forms.

But the story was the players asked for them to be sure everything they were taking was above board since this was a very new and different program for them

The forms were in jan 2012
Reid wrote to harcourt in oct 2011 complaining
Dank started in early nov 2011 at essendon
So who was giving supplments prior to dank that cause reids letter?
Think the dank program started before consent forms were done and if so why were they not done before?

 

[kfc1]

My first (and possibly last) post. I have been following these pages for many months, but did not feel as though I knew enough to comment knowledgeably, and so I haven't.

But I had a desperate desire to find out what really went on, and this I thought was the best place to look.

I didn't want a purely Essendon view, I wanted an adult debate.

I am deeply disappointed in the treatment of Bruce Francis, who had access to more information than probably any of us. Certainly, his emotive "Letter to the Editor" style is polarising and therefore would raise hackles, but he has access to and has thoroughly analysed arguably more information than any of us and I would have liked him to be able to answer some probing questions and defend his opinions.

As an aside, there is a reason why scientific papers are never written in the first person, and it is because you must only discuss the facts, and provide logical reasoning and data without the addition of emotional or personal language to back up any conclusions. I think Bruce would have gained better reception generally if he had been able to avoid the emotive language. I personally was wary of taking his conclusions at face value, as deeply satisfying as they were to read at times.

Hearing about his personal situation has helped me understand why he has come to be so invested in this despite his non-interest in AFL previously.

Which is why I am so PISSED at the behaviour of some of the posters on this board who have attacked his motivations and Chelseacarlton contributed nothing to the debate but simply posted rude comments about his test career. (I consider it highly unlikely that you ever represented your country in anything, and even if you had you should have the personal experience to respect the fact that he did.)

It was only a few weeks ago that an Essendon BF poster tragically committed suicide. Many sympathetic posts came from supporters of all stripes. People talked about the need for looking out for others.

Bruce himself said he was not suicidal, but he hopes every day not to wake up, and the task of analysing the interim report gave him a reason to get out of bed after 12 months. And look how he was treated! This forum is a zoo full of monkeys throwing s**t at each other. In this case it is the rabid "Essendon is guilty on all counts" crew (aka foam royalty) but some Essendon supporters have also been culpable in the past.

He has the courage to post under his own name and wrote some deeply personal stuff only to be derided, followed up by indifference, sarcasm and a small minded troll post. His personal post about caring for his terminally ill parents was partially in response to a jibe about patients he thought was aimed at him. I wouldn't bother posting again here if I was him either.

With regard to the two "lies" some claimed that they caught him out on:

Firstly I perfectly understand why Bruce may have been inconsistent when talking about whether he spoke to or emailed his source, as he doesn't want to reveal her (or him). In fact I find it a bit reassuring that he isn't very good at covering his tracks, he isn't a practiced liar.

Secondly the development with Alavi who according to a conversation with one ASADA investigator (I too thought the wording "one" slightly odd) believed he got TB4 from Charter, but according to his interview with Chip was not exactly sure what it was. This last was all that was referenced by Bruce and the ASADA revelation is I believe a relatively new development that he may not have been aware of. He posted previously composed material I have seen before, I don't believe he was lying. I am surprised nobody has considered Alavi may have had some legal advice prior to talking to Chip, not unlike the Essendon players. i.e. tell the truth, but do not speculate - only say what you know to be true. He may have been told and believed it was TB4 (which it looks like it was, not that it proves much yet in my opinion), but he can truthfully say he didn't "know".

We are the poorer without him and I despair at the quality of this debate.

Welcome and excellent first post. Agree on many counts.

 

[D-N-R]

I think it was saying Hird is accusing David of lying about finding the consent firms.

Along teh lines of Monday David says he found the consent forms.

Tuesday Hird learns that David said he discovered the consent forms the day before. Hird claims that is a lie....I think

He's definitely accusing Evans of lying. It is an odd way to phrase the events, though. 'Evans didn't find them, Hird did.' Not 'Evans didn't find them, Hird got them and showed him.' or something.

Anyway, I'm off, thanks for the discussion.

 

[Sir Hugh Percy]

I find it hard to believe that Evans couldn't have known of the program. It beggars belief.

I find it equally odd that Hird didn't know about the consent forms (he 'found' them, not Evans), considering he was the one who implicitly stated that the program "must have the players' consent". You'd think that all the information, education and consent was an integral part of the way the program was set up. I thought the consent forms came after the program had started, but I'm not sure.

The claim that Hird didn't know about the consent forms until Feb 2013 is completely at odds with what McVeigh has said:
''Players got forms in front of the doctors - Dr Bruce Reid who has been at the club for 30 years, coaches - and everyone knew that this had been ticked off. The doctor had told us it was fine, we trust [him] with everything, and James Hird, who we trust, we signed it, then that would give them consent [for us] to be able to have these tablets.''

"That did not happen," McVeigh said on Wednesday. "Jobe Watson and myself actually spoke to James Hird about the program in early January (2012). The injections did not start until early February.

"Orally, there were tablets - vitamins, we were told - and they were put into our lockers. I was concerned about the level, it had gone up, we had never done it before, it was a new frontier. We went to James Hird saying we need a bit of clarification around what we are having, why we were having it and what it was doing in terms of our rehabilitation and vitamins and how it is making us better."

 

[BlueWorld]

Agree with what you said about the treatment of BF. Childish insults don't advance the discussion.

Really. What did he expect when he posted things such as:

I have only been on this site today but the vast majority of posts indicates most people are talking from ignorance, which qualifies them for a job at ASADA or the AFL.

I have spent 15 hours a day, seven days a week for 18 months trying to ascertain the truth. I haven't had time to post rubbish from a position of ignorance - like you. Fire any questions at me you like. I think you are wasting your time on this site. You obviously have the proof of wrong-doing. ASADA doesn't have it. The AFL doesn't have it. It appears only you, Wilson and Smith have it. I suggest you put your money where your mouth is and trot down to the court house and give your evidence to ASADA. You will be welcomed with open arms.

As well as making assertions without anything to back them up:

ASADA has to prove its case and it can't.

Question. Why did Hird have to interfere? It appears that Essendon will be cleared of taking any banned substances. What is he guilty of? Unless you have read the Victorian Occupational Health and Safety Act you are speaking from ignorance.

Or

Please name the unsafe drugs. The AFL didn't inject unsafe drugs but they sat back and let EFC inject players with what the AFL believed to be unsafe drugs.

I doubt whether Switkowski wrote that. He said he didn't know anything about drugs and wouldn't comment and then came up with that nonsense. He interviewed 3 players out of 45 and didn't interview Dank or Robinson. His report deserves to be thrown in the bin.

 

[kfc1]

"Jobe Watson and myself actually spoke to James Hird about the program in early January (2012). The injections did not start until early February.

But the players got so huge in 3 weeks in November they couldn't have done it without teh druggzzzz!

 

[D-N-R]

The claim that Hird didn't know about the consent forms until Feb 2013 is completely at odds with what McVeigh has said:
''Players got forms in front of the doctors - Dr Bruce Reid who has been at the club for 30 years, coaches - and everyone knew that this had been ticked off. The doctor had told us it was fine, we trust [him] with everything, and James Hird, who we trust, we signed it, then that would give them consent [for us] to be able to have these tablets.''

"That did not happen," McVeigh said on Wednesday. "Jobe Watson and myself actually spoke to James Hird about the program in early January (2012). The injections did not start until early February.

"Orally, there were tablets - vitamins, we were told - and they were put into our lockers. I was concerned about the level, it had gone up, we had never done it before, it was a new frontier. We went to James Hird saying we need a bit of clarification around what we are having, why we were having it and what it was doing in terms of our rehabilitation and vitamins and how it is making us better."

Thanks.

On the bolded. Did they have to sign consent forms for tablets, specifically vitamins? Were any of the drugs on that consent form administered orally?

Also, if the injections didn't start until February, then what was their 'concern about the level' and 'it was a new frontier' if all they were being administered beforehand were 'vitamins' in tablet form? Hmmm, someone is telling porkies.

 

[D-N-R]

Really. What did he expect when he posted things such as:

As well as making assertions without anything to back them up:

Or

I don't agree with what BF was saying, although I wasn't really following all of it. I think being mocked about his cricket career is pretty low, since he has come on under his own name. Any stuff like this, from any side, is a waste of time for all involved.

 

[gavaniacono]

My first (and possibly last) post. I have been following these pages for many months, but did not feel as though I knew enough to comment knowledgeably, and so I haven't.

But I had a desperate desire to find out what really went on, and this I thought was the best place to look.

I didn't want a purely Essendon view, I wanted an adult debate.

I am deeply disappointed in the treatment of Bruce Francis, who had access to more information than probably any of us. Certainly, his emotive "Letter to the Editor" style is polarising and therefore would raise hackles, but he has access to and has thoroughly analysed arguably more information than any of us and I would have liked him to be able to answer some probing questions and defend his opinions.

As an aside, there is a reason why scientific papers are never written in the first person, and it is because you must only discuss the facts, and provide logical reasoning and data without the addition of emotional or personal language to back up any conclusions. I think Bruce would have gained better reception generally if he had been able to avoid the emotive language. I personally was wary of taking his conclusions at face value, as deeply satisfying as they were to read at times.

Hearing about his personal situation has helped me understand why he has come to be so invested in this despite his non-interest in AFL previously.

Which is why I am so PISSED at the behaviour of some of the posters on this board who have attacked his motivations and Chelseacarlton contributed nothing to the debate but simply posted rude comments about his test career. (I consider it highly unlikely that you ever represented your country in anything, and even if you had you should have the personal experience to respect the fact that he did.)

It was only a few weeks ago that an Essendon BF poster tragically committed suicide. Many sympathetic posts came from supporters of all stripes. People talked about the need for looking out for others.

Bruce himself said he was not suicidal, but he hopes every day not to wake up, and the task of analysing the interim report gave him a reason to get out of bed after 12 months. And look how he was treated! This forum is a zoo full of monkeys throwing s**t at each other. In this case it is the rabid "Essendon is guilty on all counts" crew (aka foam royalty) but some Essendon supporters have also been culpable in the past.

He has the courage to post under his own name and wrote some deeply personal stuff only to be derided, followed up by indifference, sarcasm and a small minded troll post. His personal post about caring for his terminally ill parents was partially in response to a jibe about patients he thought was aimed at him. I wouldn't bother posting again here if I was him either.

With regard to the two "lies" some claimed that they caught him out on:

Firstly I perfectly understand why Bruce may have been inconsistent when talking about whether he spoke to or emailed his source, as he doesn't want to reveal her (or him). In fact I find it a bit reassuring that he isn't very good at covering his tracks, he isn't a practiced liar.

Secondly the development with Alavi who according to a conversation with one ASADA investigator (I too thought the wording "one" slightly odd) believed he got TB4 from Charter, but according to his interview with Chip was not exactly sure what it was. This last was all that was referenced by Bruce and the ASADA revelation is I believe a relatively new development that he may not have been aware of. He posted previously composed material I have seen before, I don't believe he was lying. I am surprised nobody has considered Alavi may have had some legal advice prior to talking to Chip, not unlike the Essendon players. i.e. tell the truth, but do not speculate - only say what you know to be true. He may have been told and believed it was TB4 (which it looks like it was, not that it proves much yet in my opinion), but he can truthfully say he didn't "know".

We are the poorer without him and I despair at the quality of this debate.

A very long post. Making up for not posting previously!
First, BF does have things of interest to say. I agree with his attitude that the AFL is also negligent and should at some point have its back against the wall. The AFLs constant babble abt 'brand' reduces the competition to a PR exercise and as all marketing tends toward untruth and deception in some form or another, they have not had the concept of truth as their ultimate goal , but rather the appearance of things. The AFL has no depth and no worthy vision. It is a corporation. Nuff said.

But BF fails because he is just another hubristic self obsessed elitist denouncing others as ignorant or as not having his high interest in this case. He's a bit of an onanist, to be honest, and he is easily scented out by more grounded people from the burbs who may not have much to brag abt apart from living in the real world knowing they are no better than anyone else.

Finally, if one is in despair and disappointed abt web blogs and the wild nature of the discussion and the various points of view expressed in often funny, iconoclastic, crass, clever, blunt, and erudite fashion, then perhaps one should be cloistered with those other famous onanists, monks.

 

[pablo668]

Come back Bruce, all is forgiven.

 

[yaco55]

Others might assume that "information" passed to Chip has been passed for a strategic reason. And may very well be willfully misinterpreted and misleading.

Any chance that Homer is watching the live video links which are provided to the defendants ? Doubt that anything needs to be passed on. The question that needs to be asked - From what location is Chip watching the video link ? AFL House or the True Value Solar Centre

 

[yaco55]

So the substance was investigated and found to be WADA compliant?

I believe so - I believe it was Tribulus - Could have been another substance starting with T.

 

[yaco55]

Does anyone truly believe Francis is acting independently?

What's your definition of independent ? The script says that the media took pre-ordained positions on Feb 5,2013.

 

[blackcat]

Who is he acting for and what is the arrangement?
inb4 Hird

himself. his master is $$$

 

[yaco55]

I think meant Hird knew of the consent forms.

Evans claimed that was the first he saw them, but I think Evans knew about the supplement program before that.

Well Evans and Hird and Dank attended the meeting in which the manufacturers of AOD asked for financial backing. It's impossible to believe that Evans was unaware of the supplements program at EFC. And later in 2012 Dank was in the Middle East discussing AOD with Dr Peter Fricker.

 

[yaco55]

The forms were in jan 2012
Reid wrote to harcourt in oct 2011 complaining
Dank started in early nov 2011 at essendon
So who was giving supplments prior to dank that cause reids letter?
Think the dank program started before consent forms were done and if so why were they not done before?

Robinson.

 

[blackcat]

Well Evans and Hird and Dank attended the meeting in which the manufacturers of AOD asked for financial backing. It's impossible to believe that Evans was unaware of the supplements program at EFC. And later in 2012 Dank was in the Middle East discussing AOD with Dr Peter Fricker.

fricken 'ell.

AOD is lipstick on a pig for oompa loompas with tortured metaphors

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Tbh I don't think Francis is in the Hird or the EFC camp

You don't employ a suicidal obsessive shut in with no experience in the afl, supplements, WADA regulation, or the law, why you are in a fight to save your career or club

Fwiw he comes across to be as a sincere guy, who has done a lot of hard work and put together some decent interpretations of available facts. However his obsession with the case has seriously narrowed his ability to observe things impartially, and his desire to find proof under every rock is seeing him make some thin to ludicrous claims. The later unfortunately makes the ability to give proper credibility to the former hard. Unfair, yes, but you get weighed by the sum of your works, and the sheer obsessiveness he has now means all his work is tainted by this

Interesting isn't it. That's a different perspective to an Essendon poster who has Pm'd me recently and gone into detail about their concerns with who is writing what and why.

They seem quite concerned that Francis is a plant.

I was just asking the question, as I find it a little too hard to believe that he's just up and decided to fight city hall.

 

[blackcat]

matter of fact, dank reminds me of ned beatie in deliverance when he is got spit roasted by appalachian moutain men

 

[blackcat]

Interesting isn't it. That's a different perspective to an Essendon poster who has Pm'd me recently and gone into detail about their concerns with who is writing what and why.

They seem quite concerned that Francis is a plant.

I was just asking the question, as I find it a little too hard to believe that he's just up and decided to fight city hall.

ficus and potplants sold at poyntons nursery in essendon.

does anyone know the plural of ficus?

 

[Ancient Tiger]

ficus and potplants sold at poyntons nursery in essendon.

does anyone know the plural of ficus?

Plural is still ficus!

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Interesting isn't it. That's a different perspective to an Essendon poster who has Pm'd me recently and gone into detail about their concerns with who is writing what and why.

They seem quite concerned that Francis is a plant.

I was just asking the question, as I find it a little too hard to believe that he's just up and decided to fight city hall.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is mine. Does this mean I'm also not an efc plant paid to spam propaganda on these boards?

Read his stuff, the tone behind it is all wrong for a paid professional. A paid professional would have one job, show that either (a) no PED's went to efc, and they all went to MRC, or (b) dank was a rogue player.

He fails 100% on this with one of his main arguments, the bloody matrix. It was all about was Hird wasn't in a decision making position for supplements. Problem was, it 100% throws the responsibility on senior club officials (and not just dank and Robinson)

So efc would definitely not be paying for that outcome, because it still implicates them and the players. Even for Hird, the message is wrong. Hirds fate is tied to the players, which IMO is partly why he is still pushing the fools errand at the Supreme Court. He needs to have the players be clean for his rep to be clean. Francis work doesn't do that, as it still ties the program to key officials in the club.

Add to that the writing style, and his lack of credentials, why would Hird pay him to do s**t?