Bruce Francis

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blackcat said:
isabella rossellini pudendum ftw shout out to skilts idiom
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As outrageous as this might seem, she was a dog, compared to her mum. This still represents a handsome compliment to her. The youth of today will never know such pure, futile lust directed towards unattainable and beautifully-flawed perfection. The downside of readily-available pr0n - its proliferation tends to cheapen the experience, though I'm prepared to endure this inconvenience. I'm nothing if not a martyr. Taking one for the team. More recently, I've eschewed giving one.
 
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BlueWorld said:
How do you get back a 1 year suspension? Time travel?
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Buggered if I know

Even if the players get off, the club, officials and board are guilty of incompetence, negligence, and risking the health of their players though lack of due diligence. The standing punishments are valid on that alone
 

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Early 2013: The Gillard Labor Government was under the hammer over Craig Thomson’s misuse of union funds at brothels. There were also whispers of a challenge to M/s Gillard’s job by Mr Rudd. At the same time, the ACC, ASADA and TGA had completed their investigation (Aperio) and had identified some disturbing things, which it included in a report. Two Gillard ministers, Jason Clare and Kate Lundy saw the report as an opportunity to divert attention away from the government.
(BF)
 
evo said:
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There is always a lesson in Nietzsche:



He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.
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Ah yes, the old abyss. Much more interesting than that, almost as equally ubiquitous, ****ing table. Who would have thought there'd be more substance to an abyss than a table?
 
Thursday 31 January 2013: the ACC and ASADA briefed AFL chief executive, Andrew Demetriou, deputy chief executive, Gillon McLachlan, and manager – integrity services, Brett Clothier on the findings of Project Aperio. During the meeting McLachlan enquired “Is it Essendon?” The ACC’s Paul Jevtovic said: “Say no more.” A briefing document stated that Essendon FC was under suspicion. A discussion then took place about an investigation into Essendon.



Friday 1 February 2013:Clothier spoke to ASADA chief executive, Ms Aurora Andruska about conducting a joint investigation. Clothier pointed out that the AFL rules compelled the players to cooperate under threat of sanction whereas ASADA did not have that power.
(BF)
 
Friday 1 February 2013: Demetriou and Evans had a number of discussions. Although Demetriou knew it was against the law to tell anyone, evidence suggests he told David Evans about his briefing. I assume Demetriou believed if Essendon dobbed itself in, it would reduce the penalty and the AFL and Essendon would look more responsible and suffer less ridicule in the media. I believe Hird’s version of what happened for a number of reasons. In particular, because Hird had nothing to gain. In fact, he had a lot to lose. As soon as Hird told ASADA that Demetriou told Evans to self-report, Essendon lost any chance of having the penalties reduced if found guilty.

I suspect most people would have done what Demetriou is believed to have done. We have all passed on secrets we promised not to. We embrace the saying “I can keep a secret, it’s just the person I told who can’t.” In a sense, Martin Hardie and I have done a similar thing in quoting from the Interim Report, we believed it would help Essendon. I assume Demetriou would have told Evans he had some really bad news but he needed Evan's promise he wouldn't ever reveal he was tipped off. As we know, that eventually put Evans in an invidious position. Do I break my promise to Demetriou or end my friendship with Hird?
(BF)
 
Friday 1 February 2013:Evans called on Dr Reid at his home and asked him if the players had taken banned substances. Dr Reid was shocked and said no. Dr Reid told me that Evans told him that earlier that day Demetriou and McLachlan had told him EFC players had been taking banned substances. [On a number of occasions I have pleaded with the media to discuss the matter with Dr Reid. To my knowledge none has. Nothing has ever appeared in the newspapers. The media doesn’t want to know because it would have had to expose Demetriou].

Evans told ASADA during the investigation that he and Robson decided to do nothing over the weekend of 2 & 3 February 2013. They decided to see what unfolded. If that were true, it was an extraordinary decision. It’s incomprehensible that Evans didn’t ring Hamilton, Robinson, or even Hird or Jobe Watson.
 
Monday 4 February 2013: Demetriou had a number of discussions with Evans and advised/told him what he should do. Evans testified that he went into the club early Monday morning and found the player consent forms. He testified that finding the consent forms was why he self-reported. Interestingly, Hird found the consent forms the following day (Tuesday). Evans’ version was wrong. About 8.30pm Evans phoned Hird, who was having dinner with his family to celebrate his 40th birthday. Hird said Evans said“We’re in a lot of trouble. The AFL believes that we have taken performance-enhancing drugs. Get over here straight away.”Robson, Corcoran and Dr Reid were also asked to go straight to Evans’s home. Demetriou phoned Evans at 9pm and allegedly told Evans he had to self-report and call for an investigation. Evans told the group what Demetriou had said. The AFL advised Evans and Robson to suspend Dean Robinson and insisted they retain Liz Lukin as a media consultant.
 
CBombers17 said:
That he pretty much swears on his father's world war 2 memory in his opening piece would suggest he's as independently motivated as he claims.

Are you suggesting he's not?
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Let's just say I'm extremely sceptical that Bruce, a man who spends so much time trying to push one side of the story, then finds the time to make an account on Bigfooty(of all places) to push his agenda even more, could be stamped as "independent" or "neutral".
 
Echols said:
Let's just say I'm extremely sceptical that Bruce, a man who spends so much time trying to push one side of the story, then finds the time to make an account on Bigfooty(of all places) to push his agenda even more, could be stamped as "independent" or "neutral".
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Perhaps he's just pursuing the truth and fighting against an injustice he claims has been carried out - not without supporting argument either it's worth noting.

Gutsy to cast an aspersion on his character (which is what you are doing) given he has been unflappable in his insistence he is neutral.
 

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CBombers17 said:
Perhaps he's just pursuing the truth and fighting against an injustice he claims has been carried out - not without supporting argument either it's worth noting.

Gutsy to cast an aspersion on his character (which is what you are doing) given he has been unflappable in his insistence he is neutral.
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You'll have to excuse me, but I find it very hard to fathom how any truly "neutral" observer of this big shebang could side with the head coach who was involved in it up to his oversized ears.

As for casting aspersions on his character, well, I don't know the bloke. You might trust him on the back of him playing sport for Australia, but I don't really go for that, so I'll continue to query why he's so intent on pushing aside the rationale that the head coach of a football club should take responsibility for his side ultimately falling foul of the anti-doping agency.
 
Gigantor said:
Monday 4 February 2013: Demetriou had a number of discussions with Evans and advised/told him what he should do. Evans testified that he went into the club early Monday morning and found the player consent forms. He testified that finding the consent forms was why he self-reported. Interestingly, Hird found the consent forms the following day (Tuesday). Evans’ version was wrong. About 8.30pm Evans phoned Hird, who was having dinner with his family to celebrate his 40th birthday. Hird said Evans said“We’re in a lot of trouble. The AFL believes that we have taken performance-enhancing drugs. Get over here straight away.”Robson, Corcoran and Dr Reid were also asked to go straight to Evans’s home. Demetriou phoned Evans at 9pm and allegedly told Evans he had to self-report and call for an investigation. Evans told the group what Demetriou had said. The AFL advised Evans and Robson to suspend Dean Robinson and insisted they retain Liz Lukin as a media consultant.
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What does it mean "found the consent forms"? Are you saying that Evans and Hird didn't know they existed?

You said that Hird had asked for the program to "not harm the players", "be legal within WADA and AFL guidelines" and that the "players must consent" (all of which are givens really). And the consent forms came after the program had started, involved the players having extra meetings because they were concerned / unsure about the stuff they were taking. Yet Hird never got a whiff about this?
 
CBombers17 said:
Perhaps he's just pursuing the truth and fighting against an injustice he claims has been carried out - not without supporting argument either it's worth noting.

Gutsy to cast an aspersion on his character (which is what you are doing) given he has been unflappable in his insistence he is neutral.
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My previous post points out a narrative that is most biased and if he claims to have done the research, please explain why he ignores the fact that even the ACC cleared Demetriou of what he was accusing him.
 
D-N-R said:
What does it mean "found the consent forms"? Are you saying that Evans and Hird didn't know they existed?

You said that Hird had asked for the program to "not harm the players", "be legal within WADA and AFL guidelines" and that the "players must consent" (all of which are givens really). And the consent forms came after the program had started, involved the players having extra meetings because they were concerned / unsure about the stuff they were taking. Yet Hird never got a whiff about this?
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I read it as Hird being also unaware there were any consent forms until he found them the day after Evans did. Amazing.
 
D-N-R said:
What does it mean "found the consent forms"? Are you saying that Evans and Hird didn't know they existed?

You said that Hird had asked for the program to "not harm the players", "be legal within WADA and AFL guidelines" and that the "players must consent" (all of which are givens really). And the consent forms came after the program had started, involved the players having extra meetings because they were concerned / unsure about the stuff they were taking. Yet Hird never got a whiff about this?
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I think meant Hird knew of the consent forms.

Evans claimed that was the first he saw them, but I think Evans knew about the supplement program before that.
 
My first (and possibly last) post. I have been following these pages for many months, but did not feel as though I knew enough to comment knowledgeably, and so I haven't.

But I had a desperate desire to find out what really went on, and this I thought was the best place to look.

I didn't want a purely Essendon view, I wanted an adult debate.

I am deeply disappointed in the treatment of Bruce Francis, who had access to more information than probably any of us. Certainly, his emotive "Letter to the Editor" style is polarising and therefore would raise hackles, but he has access to and has thoroughly analysed arguably more information than any of us and I would have liked him to be able to answer some probing questions and defend his opinions.

As an aside, there is a reason why scientific papers are never written in the first person, and it is because you must only discuss the facts, and provide logical reasoning and data without the addition of emotional or personal language to back up any conclusions. I think Bruce would have gained better reception generally if he had been able to avoid the emotive language. I personally was wary of taking his conclusions at face value, as deeply satisfying as they were to read at times.

Hearing about his personal situation has helped me understand why he has come to be so invested in this despite his non-interest in AFL previously.

Which is why I am so PISSED at the behaviour of some of the posters on this board who have attacked his motivations and Chelseacarlton contributed nothing to the debate but simply posted rude comments about his test career. (I consider it highly unlikely that you ever represented your country in anything, and even if you had you should have the personal experience to respect the fact that he did.)

It was only a few weeks ago that an Essendon BF poster tragically committed suicide. Many sympathetic posts came from supporters of all stripes. People talked about the need for looking out for others.

Bruce himself said he was not suicidal, but he hopes every day not to wake up, and the task of analysing the interim report gave him a reason to get out of bed after 12 months. And look how he was treated! This forum is a zoo full of monkeys throwing s**t at each other. In this case it is the rabid "Essendon is guilty on all counts" crew (aka foam royalty) but some Essendon supporters have also been culpable in the past.

He has the courage to post under his own name and wrote some deeply personal stuff only to be derided, followed up by indifference, sarcasm and a small minded troll post. His personal post about caring for his terminally ill parents was partially in response to a jibe about patients he thought was aimed at him. I wouldn't bother posting again here if I was him either.

With regard to the two "lies" some claimed that they caught him out on:

Firstly I perfectly understand why Bruce may have been inconsistent when talking about whether he spoke to or emailed his source, as he doesn't want to reveal her (or him). In fact I find it a bit reassuring that he isn't very good at covering his tracks, he isn't a practiced liar.

Secondly the development with Alavi who according to a conversation with one ASADA investigator (I too thought the wording "one" slightly odd) believed he got TB4 from Charter, but according to his interview with Chip was not exactly sure what it was. This last was all that was referenced by Bruce and the ASADA revelation is I believe a relatively new development that he may not have been aware of. He posted previously composed material I have seen before, I don't believe he was lying. I am surprised nobody has considered Alavi may have had some legal advice prior to talking to Chip, not unlike the Essendon players. i.e. tell the truth, but do not speculate - only say what you know to be true. He may have been told and believed it was TB4 (which it looks like it was, not that it proves much yet in my opinion), but he can truthfully say he didn't "know".

We are the poorer without him and I despair at the quality of this debate.
 
RegHickeyStand said:
I read it as Hird being also unaware there were any consent forms until he found them the day after Evans did. Amazing.
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That's how I read it. You can use 'found' to say 'got', but the way it is worded:
Evans testified that he went into the club early Monday morning and found the player consent forms. He testified that finding the consent forms was why he self-reported. [This suggests that Evan's didn't know about them.]
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Interestingly, Hird found the consent forms the following day (Tuesday). Evans’ version was wrong.[So it was Hird who discovered them]
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Those words are pretty clear, I think. 'Found' is being used to mean 'discovered'. This is the trigger that set Evans off.

What was the story around the consent forms? Anyone? I can't find a link. The players asked for them after the program had started. Was Hird a party to this, or is this something else which passed him by?
 
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D-N-R said:
That's how I read it. You can use 'found' to say 'got', but the way it is worded:




Those words are pretty clear, I think. 'Found' is being used to mean 'discovered'. This is the trigger that set Evans off.

What was the story around the consent forms? Anyone? I can't find a link. The players asked for them after the program had started. Was Hird a party to this, or is this something else which passed him by?
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As I said above, from what I've read. I think David knew about the program, IMO, David was not being honest.
I don't recall the exact timing of the consent forms.

But the story was the players asked for them to be sure everything they were taking was above board since this was a very new and different program for them
 
Max Headroom said:
Secondly the development with Alavi who according to a conversation with one ASADA investigator (I too thought the wording "one" slightly odd) believed he got TB4 from Charter, but according to his interview with Chip was not exactly sure what it was. This last was all that was referenced by Bruce and the ASADA revelation is I believe a relatively new development that he may not have been aware of. He posted previously composed material I have seen before, I don't believe he was lying. I am surprised nobody has considered Alavi may have had some legal advice prior to talking to Chip, not unlike the Essendon players. i.e. tell the truth, but do not speculate - only say what you know to be true. He may have been told and believed it was TB4 (which it looks like it was, not that it proves much yet in my opinion), but he can truthfully say he didn't "know".

We are the poorer without him and I despair at the quality of this debate.
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Agree with what you said about the treatment of BF. Childish insults don't advance the discussion.

Re; the bolded. I assume this means that Alavi had more than one conversation with investigators and spoke to more than one, but only said what he said to one of them. (i.e. didn't repeat the allegation.)

The thing with the interim report is that there may have been stuff that ASADA didn't allow the AFL to see, or stuff that was discovered after. Any number of things could have happened since its report or been omitted, meaning that it is an incomplete picture of events and of ASADAs case they are presenting to the Tribunal.
 
Nice hit n run Headroom.

Bruce Francis is just a guy. Who gives a s**t if he played for Australia, as you pointlessly raised. He is just a guy.

EVERYONE on this Board gets his motivations attacked. Just like Bruce.

He posts what a lot of people consider to be absolute tosh, and has been doing so vigorously for over a year.

To try to allude that he was terribly bullied here in his 1 day stay is quite pathetic. He was NOT.

He has relentlessly put his opinions out there, often deriding people mercilessly.

So....he logged on here to push his agenda....and his agenda got derided.

And he left.

And he was wished well with his health by several.
 
D-N-R said:
Agree with what you said about the treatment of BF. Childish insults don't advance the discussion.

Re; the bolded. I assume this means that Alavi had more than one conversation with investigators and spoke to more than one, but only said what he said to one of them. (i.e. didn't repeat the allegation.)

The thing with the interim report is that there may have been stuff that ASADA didn't allow the AFL to see, or stuff that was discovered after. Any number of things could have happened since its report or been omitted, meaning that it is an incomplete picture of events and of ASADAs case they are presenting to the Tribunal.
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4 according to the Australian
 
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