Communism

[Big_Birdy]

I always find this a poor argument. I can put up an argument for 100 million dead native Americans due to European colonialism that was basically driven by markets. I can also put up a good argument about the Great war and then by extension 2nd WW's being capitalist wars.

Um, no you cant.

The Nazi party was Socialist for a start.

The hint is in the name.

National Socialist German Workers Party.

omy only as a system of slavery. If we make clear to the man of the left that nationalism and capitalism, that is the affirmation of the Fatherland and the misuse of its resources, have nothing to do with each other, indeed that they go together like fire and water, then even as a socialist he will come to affirm the nation, which he will want to conquer.That is our real task as National Socialists. We were the first to recognize the connections, and the first to begin the struggle. Because we are socialists we have felt the deepest blessings of the nation, and because we are nationalists we want to promote socialist justice in a new Germany.A young fatherland will rise when the socialist front is firm.Socialism will become reality when the Fatherland is free.

Joseph Goebells

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

The Nazi party was Socialist for a start.

The hint is in the name.

National Socialist German Workers Party.

So then you'd believe North Korea is a democratic republic?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

How was Franco creating small, less powerfull government?

He wasn't, he was a fascist.

 

[Big_Birdy]

He was a democratic socialist.

So then you'd believe North Korea is a democratic republic?

May hold water if the Nazis didnt implement socialist policies in Germnay. But alas, they did.

I mean they liquidated all the trade unions in Germany, not to get rid of trade unions, but to create one big government run one known as the DAF as just one example.

 

[Big_Birdy]

He wasn't, he was a fascist.

So we are in agreement, Franco wasnt a fan of small government. So how was he right wing then?

 

[John]

Um, no you cant.

The Nazi party was Socialist for a start.

The hint is in the name.

National Socialist German Workers Party.

omy only as a system of slavery. If we make clear to the man of the left that nationalism and capitalism, that is the affirmation of the Fatherland and the misuse of its resources, have nothing to do with each other, indeed that they go together like fire and water, then even as a socialist he will come to affirm the nation, which he will want to conquer.That is our real task as National Socialists. We were the first to recognize the connections, and the first to begin the struggle. Because we are socialists we have felt the deepest blessings of the nation, and because we are nationalists we want to promote socialist justice in a new Germany.A young fatherland will rise when the socialist front is firm.Socialism will become reality when the Fatherland is free.

Joseph Goebells

I do not even mention the Nazis, and in the end you have missed my point. Everything you and I read is disputed. There are many “supposedly” or “allegedly” or “according to some sources” that can be used as you yourself have used above. When people debate history they debate via their own agenda, be that political or personal hence 100 million deaths via communism is used in this thread and to use another example my fathers step father hated all things Japan due to his experiences in WW2. I rather like what Mathew White has to say on the subject. ".............everything bad can be associated with one root cause (resources, racism, religion, for example), one culture (Communists, the West, Muslims), or one method (war, exploitation, taxation). Most people acquire their knowledge of atrocities haphazardly—a TV documentary, a few movies, a political website, a tourist brochure, and that angry man at the end of the bar—and then proceed to make judgements about the world based on those few examples."

 

[Little Big John]

Who cares. I think he just wanted to get out of dodge once the CNT started turning on themselves (they're so silly these lefties).

Just admit that you haven't read it and you know * all about the area.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

May hold water if the Nazis didnt implement socialist policies in Germnay. But alas, they did.

I mean they liquidated all the trade unions in Germany, not to get rid of trade unions, but to create one big government run one known as the DAF as just one example.

That's your evidence Hitler was a socialist?

Trying to put Nazism anywhere on the accepted political spectrum is the work of minds that have yet to develop.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

So we are in agreement, Franco wasnt a fan of small government. So how was he right wing then?

Fascism and Nazism were a primary reason why the terms left and right became obsolete.

 

[Big_Birdy]

Fascism and Nazism were a primary reason why the terms left and right became obsolete.

I would agree with that

 

[Big_Birdy]

Just admit that you haven't read it and you know **** all about the area.

I am struggling to see your point. Are you arguing that Orwell was a fan of communism?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

I am struggling to see your point. Are you arguing that Orwell was a fan of communism?

He was a democratic socialist.

 

[Big_Birdy]

That's your evidence Hitler was a socialist?

Trying to put Nazism anywhere on the accepted political spectrum is the work of minds that have yet to develop.

I am happy to keep bringing up examples if you like

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

I am happy to keep bringing up examples if you like

Hitler combined elements of fascism, militarism, corporatism, nationalism, racism and capitalism.

I remember when I was 18 and used to read blowhards like Bolt and I would try to convince people Hitler was a socialist aswell.

 

[Big_Birdy]

I do not even mention the Nazis, and in the end you have missed my point. Everything you and I read is disputed. There are many “supposedly” or “allegedly” or “according to some sources” that can be used as you yourself have used above. When people debate history they debate via their own agenda, be that political or personal hence 100 million deaths via communism is used in this thread and to use another example my fathers step father hated all things Japan due to his experiences in WW2. I rather like what Mathew White has to say on the subject. ".............everything bad can be associated with one root cause (resources, racism, religion, for example), one culture (Communists, the West, Muslims), or one method (war, exploitation, taxation). Most people acquire their knowledge of atrocities haphazardly—a TV documentary, a few movies, a political website, a tourist brochure, and that angry man at the end of the bar—and then proceed to make judgements about the world based on those few examples."

You claimed capatalist governments wiped out 100 million people in the 20th century and used WW1 and 2 as examples. So who were you talking about?

 

[John]

You claimed capatalist governments wiped out 100 million people in the 20th century and used WW1 and 2 as examples. So who were you talking about?

I never claimed that capatalist (sic) governments wiped out 100 million people. I said there could be an argument made for that. You are not interested in the point I am making.

 

[Big_Birdy]

Hitler combined elements of fascism, militarism, corporatism, nationalism, racism and capitalism.

I remember when I was 18 and used to read blowhards like Bolt and I would try to convince people Hitler was a socialist aswell.

We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.

Adolf Hitler, 1927

 

[Big_Birdy]

I never claimed that capatalist (sic) governments wiped out 100 million people. I said there could be an argument made for that. You are not interested in the point I am making.

But there is no correct argument that could be made for that.

What point are you making then?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.

Adolf Hitler, 1927

What are the key tenets of socialism?

 

[John]

But there is no correct argument that could be made for that.

What point are you making then?

That's right. That is my point in general. Read Matthew Whites quote I posted.

There can be also an argument that what we call communism is not communism. I have read interesting and compelling debate that Mao was purely a state corporatist and used the masses for that means. It is a compelling debate considering Chinese history in general. You are in debate about Hitler and National Socialism. Read Evan's The Coming Of the Third Reich. He explains the contradictory statements made by the Nazis who were willing to say and do what it took to gain power. Statements such as you quoted at the height of the depression in Germany were made for a reason. Basically to win over the working class of the Ruhr Valley who were attracted to Socialism during times of mass unemployment. The Nazis ideology can be very confused outside it's racial policies based on the various contradictory statements they made.

In the end I am stating that I can post figures that prove the barbarity of Communism, Fascism, Capitalism, Christianity, Islam, Racism and a few others.

 

[Big_Birdy]

What are the key tenets of socialism?

That not all of ones worth is owned by the individual. A portion of that is owned by the state to be used at the states discretion for what they perceive is for the betterment of the state. That the rights of the state is greater than that of the individual.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

That not all of ones worth is owned by the individual. A portion of that is owned by the state to be used at the states discretion for what they perceive is for the betterment of the state. That the rights of the state is greater than that of the individual.

That's a poor definition. It makes no distinction between socialism and fascism.

Socialism is

• an internationalist doctrine.
• believes in universal equality.
• sees class as the primary division between society, not race.

Now, it doesnt take a great mind to realise Hitler was no socialist.

That uncontextualised quote you provided came from a time well before Hitler's ascension, and during a time when socialism was seen as the way forward and all manner of parties were attaching it to them. Not to mention he was keen to attach himself to anti-Western sentiment in German following WW1.

 

[Big_Birdy]

That's right. That is my point in general. Read Matthew Whites quote I posted.

There can be also an argument that what we call communism is not communism. I have read interesting and compelling debate that Mao was purely a state corporatist and used the masses for that means. It is a compelling debate considering Chinese history in general. You are in debate about Hitler and National Socialism. Read Evan's The Coming Of the Third Reich. He explains the contradictory statements made by the Nazis who were willing to say and do what it took to gain power. Statements such as you quoted at the height of the depression in Germany were made for a reason. Basically to win over the working class of the Ruhr Valley who were attracted to Socialism during times of mass unemployment. The Nazis ideology can be very confused outside it's racial policies based on the various contradictory statements they made.

In the end I am stating that I can post figures that prove the barbarity of Communism, Fascism, Capitalism, Christianity, Islam, Racism and a few others.

Sure I can accept most of that. But barbarity of Capatalism, where? When?

And calling Mao a State Corporalist? The wording is fine as in the description fits, but what is Communism other than State Corporalisation? It simple makes the state the only corporation in the land. Sounds like someone trying to crowbar an argument against free enterprise in everything to me.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

But barbarity of Capatalism, where? When?

Dude. Seriously?

 

[Big_Birdy]

That's a poor definition. It makes no distinction between socialism and fascism.

Socialism is

• an internationalist doctrine.
• believes in universal equality.
• sees class as the primary division between society, not race.

Now, it doesnt take a great mind to realise Hitler was no socialist.

That uncontextualised quote you provided came from a time well before Hitler's ascension, and during a time when socialism was seen as the way forward and all manner of parties were attaching it to them. Not to mention he was keen to attach himself to anti-Western sentiment in German following WW1.

Your definition is poor. You actually just stated that it believes in universal equality AND that society is divided by class. Which one is it? I mean honestly you just wrote two completely contradictory tenets one after the other.