Mega Thread Hot Topic - Drugs and AFL

[mic59]

This was in the Federal Court, next rung up is the High Court. After that he might consider the International Court on Human Rights. Failing all else, there's Judge Judy

I'd love to see James Hird on Judge Judy. At least on her quasi-legal show she doesn't have to take any s***, which is all he can use in his defence.

 

[Doctor Feel]

I'd love to see James Hird on Judge Judy. At least on her quasi-legal show she doesn't have to take any s***, which is all he can use in his defence.

"when the truth comes out, ill be in a good place."
"upbupbupbup! did i ask you to talk? no. wait your turn mr. hird."

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The 4 big North American sports did not sign the Wada code so they make up their own rules and penalties. The 4 sports are about making big profits and big capital gains for the private owners so they are not going to listen to a bunch of Europeans, Asians etc telling them what to do.

NBA basketball players and NHL Ice Hockey players are subject to the Wada code when they represent their countries at world championships and Olympics as their international federations have signed the Wada Code.

 

[raptalia]

The NFL stance is pathetic. 3 violations for a 2 year ban? Give me a break. In the NFL you can get caught taking roids and get a few weeks off. It's worth the risk for players to do it.

Pathetic maybe but that is the way it is. The NFL is not a signatory to the World Anti Doping Authority agreement. Why ? because it simply does not have to be as it is financially able to support itself without Government Grants and like the AFL it is not an international body. The link below is very interesting and worth reading.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/football-codes-dont-go-all-the-american-way-20130322-2gl3q.html

There were 21 positive drug tests in the NRL in 2012 the same year as Essendon are alleged to have administered PEDs but for which there is not one positive result. In the NFL a player can only be convicted if he returns a positive test. The NFL maybe as soft as shite re penalties but they obviously have a drug screening regime that catches the culprits which is more than can be said of the AFL/ ASADA programme.

It also interesting that a Florida Court awarded an NFL player $5.4M in damages because the supplier did not tell him the mouth spray he was using contained a PED. That happened in the US of course and might not happen under the Australian legal system.

 

[chiwigi]

Pathetic maybe but that is the way it is. The NFL is not a signatory to the World Anti Doping Authority agreement. Why ? because it simply does not have to be as it is financially able to support itself without Government Grants and like the AFL it is not an international body. The link below is very interesting and worth reading.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/football-codes-dont-go-all-the-american-way-20130322-2gl3q.html

There were 21 positive drug tests in the NRL in 2012 the same year as Essendon are alleged to have administered PEDs but for which there is not one positive result. In the NFL a player can only be convicted if he returns a positive test. The NFL maybe as soft as shite re penalties but they obviously have a drug screening regime that catches the culprits which is more than can be said of the AFL/ ASADA programme.

It also interesting that a Florida Court awarded an NFL player $5.4M in damages because the supplier did not tell him the mouth spray he was using contained a PED. That happened in the US of course and might not happen under the Australian legal system.

This is why the NFL system is better, there is no false assumption of a clean game (a lie that AFL toils under). There is instead a strict testing policy that actually catches people and it CAN catch people because the punishment is not career ending nor PR suicide.

The AFL does not want to catch anybody taking PEDS, its bad for the image and if its a good player (or a whistleblower) then it ends careers of big attractions.

The NFL is far more sensible and reasonable.

 

[raptalia]

I did some research on Hird's case and he is apparently arguing that ASADA exceeded it's authority by conducting a joint investigation with the AFL.

When ASADA was first proposed back in 2004 it was done against the 'Shooting Gallery' cycling allegations. It was alleged that widespread doping was rife within the AIS cycling programme. It was also alleged, but never proven, that Australian Cycling authorities may have covered that drug abuse up. As a result the Howard Government was careful to place restrictions on contact between ASADA and a Sport's Governing Body lest there be collusion and cover up. Hird, and initially Essendon, were alleging that those restrictions had been breached by the joint ASADA/ AFL investigators and therefore the investigation was unlawful. To know if Hird has a case you would need to know the nature of any restrictions and critically the process followed by ASADA and AFL investigators. Apparently the lower Courts do not think ASADA have contravened the law but that does not mean the High Court would take the same view. The High Court has a history of finding against the Federal Government.

 

[ploppy]

Is this Hird bloke for real...After this thing dragging on and on for years now he is thinking of dragging it on even longer on the miniscule chance he can get the case dismissed on a minor technicality at the high court. He must have no confidence of fighting the actual charges.

 

[raman]

Remember when James Hird was an almost universally admired footy player? A Brownlow medalist with insane skills who could play literally anywhere on the ground, and was actually also tough as * despite his pretty boy image?

LOL

Imagine having that, and pissing it down the drain like this.

 

[Steve Dore]

...... on the miniscule chance he can get the case dismissed on a minor technicality at the high court. He must have no confidence of fighting the actual charges.

This.

 

[Power Raid]

Remember when James Hird was an almost universally admired footy player? A Brownlow medalist with insane skills who could play literally anywhere on the ground, and was actually also tough as **** despite his pretty boy image?

LOL

Imagine having that, and pissing it down the drain like this.

yep

he was a player I admired both on and off the field. But that respect has long gone.

If he had just put his hand up and said what happened, rather than hide behind this process, I probably would still respect him. As we all make mistakes but the measure of a man is how we take ownership of them.

 

[Forzaport]

I'd make a joke about Hird considering a failed High Court challenge but Titus already beat me to it

 

[MrMeaner]

I want a client like Hird.

 

[chiwigi]

Remember when James Hird was an almost universally admired footy player? A Brownlow medalist with insane skills who could play literally anywhere on the ground, and was actually also tough as **** despite his pretty boy image?

LOL

Imagine having that, and pissing it down the drain like this.

I rarely read autobiographies of sportsmen, but I read his not long after I arrived in Australia (getting into the culture etc). I thought it was even more narcissistic than Tyson's!

 

[Phhht]

I want a client like Hird.

If you land him (or Little for that matter) plz be aware there is plenty of space on the PAFC guernsey

 

[scottjr]

If you land him (or Little for that matter) plz be aware there is plenty of space on the PAFC guernsey

Nah the Bombers may offer something in lieu of payment for a few years. Maybe along with naming rights to their clubrooms.

 

[MrMeaner]

Nah the Bombers may offer something in lieu of payment for a few years. Maybe along with naming rights to their clubrooms.

I think he meant room for my name.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

This is why the NFL system is better, there is no false assumption of a clean game (a lie that AFL toils under). There is instead a strict testing policy that actually catches people and it CAN catch people because the punishment is not career ending nor PR suicide.

The AFL does not want to catch anybody taking PEDS, its bad for the image and if its a good player (or a whistleblower) then it ends careers of big attractions.

The NFL is far more sensible and reasonable.

How can you say there is a strict direct testing policy?? Do you know the stats and how it stacks up with other sports. Can I find the following sort of info which I can find for athletes tested at IAAF meets or tennis players, look up a chart that provides the following sort of info;

Tom Brady 18 tests between x and y dates
7 blood tests and 9 urine tests
6 in competition and 12 out of competition test
4 specific test for HGH
3 specific test for EPO

This is the sort of info you get from the sports bodies i mentioned above. I doubt you know if the NFL actually catches more than some other more and better tested sports. They might be more tests than AFL but I doubt they get even close to what some Olympic sports do. The 2 big drugs in NFL would be steroids for power and strength and HGH. I have little confidence HGH tests will catch players. No positive between 1980 and 2010 world wide and about a dozen since. Every Olympic year there is a shortage of HGH worldwide.

The NFL is about turning a blind idea as much as any other sports. Enough people know its rife but they keep quiet about it. NBC or Fox are not going to mention drugs in their Super Bowl coverage. No better example of this that when Baltimore Ravens star Ray Lewis in mid October 2012 at the age of 7 tears his triceps - one I think off the bone. He goes to an alternative Sports Medicine Lab and supposedly tries Deer antler spray. I'm sure he used other stuff and makes back for the play offs in January and eventually plays in the winning Super Bowl a few weeks later. A miraculous recovery. But still most of the media and fans turned a blind eye at such a defying recovery. How many times was he tested between mid October and January and then the next month he played?

The only positive thing I will say about US sports and PEDs, is that if they decide to go after someone who is blatantly cheating or they believe its too important to let the uncertainty hang around, then they can throw as much resources as they want to at the investigation and get the right people to do the job as opposed to an Oz government agency.

Case in point is MLB going after Alex Rodriguez and the Miami clinic scandal in 2013 and early 2014. But Commissioner Bud Selig learnt from the BALCO/ Victor Conte dramas of the early 2000's and how that dragged on with Conte's clients Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and the Sammy Sosa and Roger Clement cases etc that took several years and went thru the courts and Jose Canseco coming out and saying who used drugs, freely and happily admitting he used drugs and even wrote a best selling book about it. As I wrote a few pages back Commissioner Selig said do what you need to do to his COO - because he never had the balls to do this 10 years earlier and MLB took a massive hit and has paid dearly for it. Selig and his COO showed what can be done when you don't **** around at the crematorium and actually want to get to the truth and not run away from it because it migh hurt your image - like Andy D and his pals have done for a couple of decades.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/hot-topic-drugs-and-afl.972243/page-119#post-36834511

"At the Manhattan headquarters of Major League Baseball, Rob Manfred had his sights on Bosch. A lawyer by training, Manfred runs Major League Baseball as the chief operating officer. Commissioner Selig told him to do what he had to do to get to the bottom of the scandal. Manfred hired the former director of the United States Secret Service and a number of retired FBI agents--more than 30 investigators in all. In the underworld of Miami, word got around. And a call came to Major League Baseball. Turned out there were more documents from Bosch's Biogenesis clinic."

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

This is why the NFL system is better, there is no false assumption of a clean game (a lie that AFL toils under).....

But the fans still want to assume its clean. As I wrote on the BDC board in a Lance Armstrong thread

I bought Sunday Times journo David Walsh's book - Seven deadly sins, my pursuit of Lance Armstrong. On the dedication page there is a dedication to his family and then two quotes.

The first is from Sandro Donati who is an Italian anti doping campaigner and sports official who ended up on the Italian Olympic Committee. Donati regularly clashed with the dodgy Professor Francesco Conconi who was pro blood transfusions. Conconi told Donati in 1981, when Donati was national middle distance coach for the Italian Athletic Federation how to improve on the Finnish blood doping methods. Donati rejeted the offer and was instrumental in getting the Italian parliament to pass legislated after the 1984 Olympics to outlaw blood doping. He has done many other good things in his anti doping campaign. His quote is

" I watch the Olympic Games but I don't bother to remember the names of the athletes any more. It's like theatre - but I prefer theatre because the relationship between actor and spectator is clear. In sport's theatre, both are still pretending it's real."

the other quote is from Brad Pitt in Se7en

"You're no messiah. You're a movie of the week. You're a ****ing T-shirt at best."

 

[chiwigi]

But the fans still want to assume its clean. As I wrote on the BDC board in a Lance Armstrong thread

I bought Sunday Times journo David Walsh's book - Seven deadly sins, my pursuit of Lance Armstrong. On the dedication page there is a dedication to his family and then two quotes.

The first is from Sandro Donati who is an Italian anti doping campaigner and sports official who ended up on the Italian Olympic Committee. Donati regularly clashed with the dodgy Professor Francesco Conconi who was pro blood transfusions. Conconi told Donati in 1981, when Donati was national middle distance coach for the Italian Athletic Federation how to improve on the Finnish blood doping methods. Donati rejeted the offer and was instrumental in getting the Italian parliament to pass legislated after the 1984 Olympics to outlaw blood doping. He has done many other good things in his anti doping campaign. His quote is

" I watch the Olympic Games but I don't bother to remember the names of the athletes any more. It's like theatre - but I prefer theatre because the relationship between actor and spectator is clear. In sport's theatre, both are still pretending it's real."

the other quote is from Brad Pitt in Se7en

"You're no messiah. You're a movie of the week. You're a ****ing T-shirt at best."

Tough luck, the truth is the truth. There are no clean professional sports. There are only sports (like AFL) that claim to be clean.

You also completely missed my point on the NFL, that lesser sanctions make actual sanctions (and not cover ups) more likely.

 

[proman_x]

How can you say there is a strict direct testing policy?? Do you know the stats and how it stacks up with other sports. Can I find the following sort of info which I can find for athletes tested at IAAF meets or tennis players, look up a chart that provides the following sort of info;

Tom Brady 18 tests between x and y dates
7 blood tests and 9 urine tests
6 in competition and 12 out of competition test
4 specific test for HGH
3 specific test for EPO

This is the sort of info you get from the sports bodies i mentioned above. I doubt you know if the NFL actually catches more than some other more and better tested sports. They might be more tests than AFL but I doubt they get even close to what some Olympic sports do. The 2 big drugs in NFL would be steroids for power and strength and HGH. I have little confidence HGH tests will catch players. No positive between 1980 and 2010 world wide and about a dozen since. Every Olympic year there is a shortage of HGH worldwide.

The NFL is about turning a blind idea as much as any other sports. Enough people know its rife but they keep quiet about it. NBC or Fox are not going to mention drugs in their Super Bowl coverage. No better example of this that when Baltimore Ravens star Ray Lewis in mid October 2012 at the age of 7 tears his triceps - one I think off the bone. He goes to an alternative Sports Medicine Lab and supposedly tries Deer antler spray. I'm sure he used other stuff and makes back for the play offs in January and eventually plays in the winning Super Bowl a few weeks later. A miraculous recovery. But still most of the media and fans turned a blind eye at such a defying recovery. How many times was he tested between mid October and January and then the next month he played?

The only positive thing I will say about US sports and PEDs, is that if they decide to go after someone who is blatantly cheating or they believe its too important to let the uncertainty hang around, then they can throw as much resources as they want to at the investigation and get the right people to do the job as opposed to an Oz government agency.

Case in point is MLB going after Alex Rodriguez and the Miami clinic scandal in 2013 and early 2014. But Commissioner Bud Selig learnt from the BALCO/ Victor Conte dramas of the early 2000's and how that dragged on with Conte's clients Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and the Sammy Sosa and Roger Clement cases etc that took several years and went thru the courts and Jose Canseco coming out and saying who used drugs, freely and happily admitting he used drugs and even wrote a best selling book about it. As I wrote a few pages back Commissioner Selig said do what you need to do to his COO - because he never had the balls to do this 10 years earlier and MLB took a massive hit and has paid dearly for it. Selig and his COO showed what can be done when you don't **** around at the crematorium and actually want to get to the truth and not run away from it because it migh hurt your image - like Andy D and his pals have done for a couple of decades.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/hot-topic-drugs-and-afl.972243/page-119#post-36834511

"At the Manhattan headquarters of Major League Baseball, Rob Manfred had his sights on Bosch. A lawyer by training, Manfred runs Major League Baseball as the chief operating officer. Commissioner Selig told him to do what he had to do to get to the bottom of the scandal. Manfred hired the former director of the United States Secret Service and a number of retired FBI agents--more than 30 investigators in all. In the underworld of Miami, word got around. And a call came to Major League Baseball. Turned out there were more documents from Bosch's Biogenesis clinic."

That 60 min interview regarding Rodrigez you posted a while back was interesting. From all the blatant cheating that has been going on for decades in so many sports. I wonder when the day will come that they will just through up their hands and come out and openly admit we are not going to bother anymore. Or will we see a gradual acceptance with the list of banned substances slowly diminish.

Cycling, boxing, swimming, track and field, NFL, Ice Hockey, Baseball, Basketball, Cricket, AFL, Rugby, etc. etc. So many people believed the utter lie from Armstrong for so long, it became a joke. For the money he fraudulently obtained and people's lives that guy ruined he should be serving 20 years plus.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Tough luck, the truth is the truth. There are no clean professional sports. There are only sports (like AFL) that claim to be clean.

You also completely missed my point on the NFL, that lesser sanctions make actual sanctions (and not cover ups) more likely.

But the US sports dont openly admit they have drug takers playing their sports. They have a half hearted approch. They dont like the ide of marketing to 10 yer old kids - kids you wanna p[lay NFL then you better start your HGH and steroid injections by the time you hit 15 years if you want to play NFL and make a minimum $2mil a year. I'd like to see the marketing campaign around that.

I guess I missed your point because I don't really agree with it. the cover ups are always happening but I get the lesser sanctions the more likely that actual sanctions get handed out.

 

[chiwigi]

But the US sports dont openly admit they have drug takers playing their sports. They have a half hearted approch. They dont like the ide of marketing to 10 yer old kids - kids you wanna p[lay NFL then you better start your HGH and steroid injections by the time you hit 15 years if you want to play NFL and make a minimum $2mil a year. I'd like to see the marketing campaign around that.

I guess I missed your point because I don't really agree with it. the cover ups are always happening but I get the lesser sanctions the more likely that actual sanctions get handed out.

Of course they don't advertise it, the same way you don't advertise injury and brain damage.

 

[raman]

Of course they don't advertise it, the same way you don't advertise injury and brain damage.

And domestic violence.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

That 60 min interview regarding Rodrigez you posted a while back was interesting. From all the blatant cheating that has been going on for decades in so many sports. I wonder when the day will come that they will just through up their hands and come out and openly admit we are not going to bother anymore. Or will we see a gradual acceptance with the list of banned substances slowly diminish.

Cycling, boxing, swimming, track and field, NFL, Ice Hockey, Baseball, Basketball, Cricket, AFL, Rugby, etc. etc. So many people believed the utter lie from Armstrong for so long, it became a joke. For the money he fraudulently obtained and people's lives that guy ruined he should be serving 20 years plus.

Part of me says throw it open but as I wrote in my previous post I worry about the 10 year old kids, s**t even the 18 year olds, who have dreams to be a world class athlete or a professional athlete yet know they only can meet their dreams if they pump themselves full of chemicals.

If you throw it open - you are going throw open the excessive use and abuse of PEDs and get deaths and severe health problems. Humans are too cofident they can handle things when they cant. You end up with the Goldman dilemma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman's_dilemma

Goldman's dilemma, or the Goldman dilemma, is a question that was posed to elite athletes by physician, osteopath and publicistRobert Goldman, asking whether they would take a drug that would guarantee them overwhelming success in sport, but cause them to die after five years. In his research, as in previous research by Mirkin, approximately half the athletes responded that they would take the drug,[1] but modern research by James Connor and co-workers has yielded much lower numbers, with athletes having levels of acceptance of the dilemma that were similar to the general population of Australia

In the 1970s, Gabe Mirkin reported that more than half of the top runners whom he polled, would accept the following proposal: "If I could give you a pill that would make you an Olympic champion and also kill you in a year, would you take it?".[4] This surprising result prompted Bob Goldman to ask world-class athletes in combat and power sports a similar question: "If I had a magic drug that was so fantastic that if you took it once you would win every competition you would enter from the Olympic Decathlon to the Mr Universe, for the next five years but it had one minor drawback, it would kill you five years after you took it, would you still take the drug?" He also found that more than half said they would take it.[1] This result was consistent in his findings over a period from 1982 to 1995.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman's_dilemma

 

[Phhht]

Part of me says throw it open but as I wrote in my previous post I worry about the 10 year old kids, s**t even the 18 year olds, who have dreams to be a world class athlete or a professional athlete yet know they only can meet their dreams if they pump themselves full of chemicals.

Its an interesting dilemma. One of my cousins was a very talented middleweight amateur boxer. He was at the level where he was looking at going to the Olympics. He'd pretty much accounted for all his opposition within Australia. Certainly not easily, boxing is never easy unless there is a fix. However I digress.

He got the the stage of competing in the final Australian Olympic trials. Made the final bout against an opponent he'd previously beaten on a few occasions. He was confident, maybe overconfident I dont know for sure, but he ended up losing that qualification bout.

Months later after he had retired from amateur boxing (at 20yo), I caught up with him and asked him about that last fight. He told me that within the first 30 seconds of that fight he knew he wouldnt win. He claims that he hit his opponent in that fight with the best 2 shots he'd ever thrown. Ever. It was like water off a ducks back. His opponent fought like a man possessed.

My cousin was convinced that the guy was in his words, 'juiced to the eyeballs'.

He was convinced that unless he followed the same path, he wouldnt achieve anything in amateur boxing. He retired. At 20.

The sad part is, a few years later he turned professional in a mixed martial art sport, achieved some decent success (Australian Middleweight Champ) but the shady part of that world saw him make poor life choices and he is now not in a good place.

But he didnt 'juice' up.