Other New Patriots Scandal - DeflateGate

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ausbacker said:
I've been waiting for discovery from the very first moment this idiotic topic was broached.
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Be a tougher nut to crack then you think for Brady and his legal team. Collectively bargained agreements are rarely usurped by the court system. Courts are loathe to get involved in disputes where the parties have a set procedure to deal with these sorts of issues.

I will be semi-surprised if he is able to get an injunction. To do so he will need to demonstrate to the Court that he is likely to succeed on the merits of his case. Destroying his phone will not reflect favorably on him in the eyes of any competent judge.
 

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AmericanCrow said:
Be a tougher nut to crack then you think for Brady and his legal team. Collectively bargained agreements are rarely usurped by the court system. Courts are loathe to get involved in disputes where the parties have a set procedure to deal with these sorts of issues.

I will be semi-surprised if he is able to get an injunction. To do so he will need to demonstrate to the Court that he is likely to succeed on the merits of his case. Destroying his phone will not reflect favorably on him in the eyes of any competent judge.
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I'm not sure you've been paying attention to the NFLPA vs. the NFL in court. Independent arbitrators have ruled against the NFL on almost every occasion. Why do you think the NFL launched their own action in New York? Doty's rulings (in Minnesota) invariably go against the league. Hell, Tagliabue ruled against Goodell and that wasn't even a court matter.

This was headed in one direction the moment Goodell tried to establish his credibility by attacking that of a man with actual credibility.
 
from the Boston Globe....

Here are five takeaways from the NFL’s report on upholding Tom Brady’s four-game suspension:
Roger Goodell believes the Wells Report
NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, throughout the 20-page document released Tuesday, holds the Wells Report on a pedestal. Goodell argues its validity on numerous occasions. He also argues in favor of the science Exponent used and the “double-checks” by Daniel R. Marlow, a Princeton physics professor.
He also flat-out rejects the independently produced report by the American Enterprise Institute, which found a rash of problems with the Wells Report. “None of the arguments presented in that report diminish or undermine the reliability of Exponent’s conclusions,” Goodell wrote.
Goodell also takes issues with the claim by the NFL Players’ Association that the Wells Report was not independent of the league.
“The Report itself makes clear, and the hearing testimony of Mr. [Ted] Wells confirmed, that the investigation and report represent solely and entirely the findings and conclusions of the Wells investigatory team,” Goodell argues.
Goodell wrote that even if a team of NFL personnel did the investigation, his confidence in its thoroughness and fairness wouldn’t have changed.
Destroying the cellphone looks really bad
Goodell took extreme exception to this, which seemed to really underscore what he thinks is a failure on Brady’s part to cooperate. A significant portion of the 20 pages is dedicated to parsing out the destruction of Brady’s phone, an act Goodell believes Brady carried out individually and not on the advice of his counsel. It doesn’t help that the league contends Brady got rid of the phone right before or on the day of his interview with Wells and company.
“A player of Mr. Brady’s tenure in the league and sophistication … cannot credibly contend that he believed that he could, without consequences, destroy his cellphone on or about the day of his interview with the investigators when he knew in advance of the interview that the investigators were seeking the cellphone for the evidence that it contained,” Goodell wrote.
Brady willing to name names
Brady’s agents offered the league a spreadsheet of the names of people he texted with, including those individuals’ contact information, after the appeal hearing concluded. They then suggested the league reach out to those people for any messages they may have kept. Goodell wrote that those materials should have been provided in advance of the hearing. Besides, Goodell wrote, tracking down all those people “is simply not practical.”
The spreadsheet comes up more than once in Goodell’s explanation, and it seems he really did not like the move.
“And the belated attempt by his representatives to remedy this failure to cooperate — ultimately by asking the NFL to track down nearly 10,000 text messages sent to or received from a substantial number of other individuals — is simply insufficient,” Goodell wrote. “The NFLPA and Mr. Brady’s representatives have identified no instance in or outside the NFL in which such conduct has been deemed satisfactory cooperation with an investigation.”
Brady’s punishment compared to PED use
Goodell equated Brady’s involvement in Deflategate with use of performance-enhancing drugs. He argued that steroids are used to gain an advantage and “threatens the integrity of the game.” He cited the punishment levied for a first positive test for PEDs — a four-game suspension — which is in the most recent collective bargaining agreement signed in 2011.
Goodell also wrote that the four-game suspension is the same as what Browns general manager Ray Farmer received for texting coaches on the sideline from the owner’s box. “The length of that suspension reflected … the General Manager’s self-reporting and transparency in acknowledging wrongdoing,” Goodell writes. “There are no such mitigating factors here.”
Brady hindered the investigation
Goodell basically says that Brady painted himself into a corner. Brady was investigated for conduct detrimental, and his actions throughout — destroying his cellphone, withholding information, being uncooperative — obstructed that investigation. That is in and of itself, Goodell wrote, is conduct detrimental and “subject to discipline” by a fine, suspension or termination of contract.
“There is no question that the Hearing Officer (Goodell) may draw an adverse inference from the lack of cooperation and may reasonably interpret available evidence in a manner that supports findings of misconduct,” Goodell writes.
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I have been on Brady's side on this one for a while, mainly because I believe the NFL completely stuffed up and the story was a beat up from the start. It would have been simple for the NFL to realise that their ball checking procedures were less than ideal and ordered a change to the process from that time on.

but.... I can't believe that Brady would destroy his phone on the very day that Wells interviewed him, when he knew that the phone records were a key piece of evidence that the NFL was interested in. Brady's actions in this regard are high questionable.
 
ausbacker said:
I'm not sure you've been paying attention to the NFLPA vs. the NFL in court. Independent arbitrators have ruled against the NFL on almost every occasion. Why do you think the NFL launched their own action in New York? Doty's rulings (in Minnesota) invariably go against the league. Hell, Tagliabue ruled against Goodell and that wasn't even a court matter.

This was headed in one direction the moment Goodell tried to establish his credibility by attacking that of a man with actual credibility.
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Yes, the League pre-empted the forum shopping the players have been doing. Good luck in New York.

As an aside Doty's ruling against the NFL was because they tried to enforce policies that hadn't previously existed, in other words they violate the CBA. In this case, the NFL did not. Comparing apples and oranges.

Going to be an uphill climb in Federal Court on this issue.
 
AmericanCrow said:
Yes, the League pre-empted the forum shopping the players have been doing. Good luck in New York.

As an aside Doty's ruling against the NFL was because they tried to enforce policies that hadn't previously existed, in other words they violate the CBA. In this case, the NFL did not. Comparing apples and oranges.

Going to be an uphill climb in Federal Court on this issue.
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No, it won't be.
 
Zealbee said:
Sorry, how are the Patriots fans casually ignoring the fact Brady has destroyed the key piece of evidence?
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Funny how the punishment and talk tends to revolve around procedural topics and not the PSI of footballs anymore. That in itself is why I'm reasonably confident there's a hatched plan by Brady's team and the NFL just walked right into it.
 
So how i'm reading this is that Brady got 4 weeks for being a F-wit, destroying key evidence and not co-operating. lol
 
I find it really hard to believe that there is an innocent explanation for ALL the incriminating items tbh

In isolation it would be fair enough, but all together....

Be interested to see how the court case shakes out.
 
Zealbee said:
Sorry, how are the Patriots fans casually ignoring the fact Brady has destroyed the key piece of evidence?
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The footballs are actually the key evidence and they botched the science up with that.

I know it doesn't look great with the phone having been destroyed but wouldn't Wells have had all the texts Brady sent to McNally and Jastremski on their phones....
 

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ausbacker said:
Funny how the punishment and talk tends to revolve around procedural topics and not the PSI of footballs anymore. That in itself is why I'm reasonably confident there's a hatched plan by Brady's team and the NFL just walked right into it.
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Be aware that Kraft accepted the One Million Dollar fine and stripped draft picks… without any protest. Says plenty. Obviously some folk NOT on the same page at Foxboro. McNally not on the payroll either. Goodell clearly vindicated by Kraft's reaction. Just sayin'
 
WhyAlwaysMe said:
The footballs are actually the key evidence and they botched the science up with that.

I know it doesn't look great with the phone having been destroyed but wouldn't Wells have had all the texts Brady sent to McNally and Jastremski on their phones....
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What if there were emails to other people involved. Incriminating ones and now we will never know...
 
Woodson said:
Be aware that Kraft accepted the One Million Dollar fine and stripped draft picks… without any protest. Says plenty. Obviously some folk NOT on the same page at Foxboro. McNally not on the payroll either. Goodell clearly vindicated by Kraft's reaction. Just sayin'
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Kraft's actions prove where his allegiances lie. It's certainly not with Belichick, Brady, or fans of the Patriots.
 
WhyAlwaysMe said:
The footballs are actually the key evidence and they botched the science up with that.

I know it doesn't look great with the phone having been destroyed but wouldn't Wells have had all the texts Brady sent to McNally and Jastremski on their phones....
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More vindication. Pats fan admitting it doesn't look great. I think you know deep down that Brady is in DEEP DEEP denial. He should simply accept the suspension and move on. If the injunction blows up in his face.. what's next?? an apology?? Doubt Mr Smugness has the heart to go there. The word 'TAINTED' is clearly getting LOUDER!! *Media circus will dance on Brady's pettiness*
 
Woodson said:
More vindication. Pats fan admitting it doesn't look great. I think you know deep down that Brady is in DEEP DEEP denial. He should simply accept the suspension and move on. If the injunction blows up in his face.. what's next?? an apology?? Doubt Mr Smugness has the heart to go there. The word 'TAINTED' is clearly getting LOUDER!! *Media circus will dance on Brady's pettiness*
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No I just said it doesn't look good. Brady said destroying his phones is a common practice. As I said all the text Brady sent McNally and Jastremski are on their phones. Maybe Brady doesn't trust Wells, Goodell or the NFL and why would you after cockup after cockup over the last 18 months.

Oh ESPN are gonna dance on Brady's pettiness... woe is me.
 
Blacky said:
What if there were emails to other people involved. Incriminating ones and now we will never know...
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What if the footballs weren't under inflated and because they have no prior evidence to compare it to. What if this whole thing was a waste of time and money. What if, what if....
 
ausbacker said:
Kraft's actions prove where his allegiances lie. It's certainly not with Belichick, Brady, or fans of the Patriots.
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Kraft will let the dust settle for 2015 knowing that he can't do much about it and then dismiss both Brady & BB together.. thank them for building and making them a powerhouse and rewarding the fan base but the end of a marvellous era (please.. consider many other Patriots players who didn't resort to forcing such controversy in their long run at the top) is getting near to the end. It's not the end of the world for Kraft. He knows he's been embarrassed and even though he 'may wish' Brady not continue to grandstand to make this issue bigger than it is.. in 10 years time.. it's not going to be about Brady or BB.. but the way Kraft accepted his employers flaws with controversy to achieve further success.

Whether BB gets another gig as HC after NE, is something that we'll all have to wait and see. I didn't expect NE to remain a powerhouse in the last couple years but credit to them that ARE bigger than just Brady & BB. It's a team game at the end of the day. Brady is just souring his reputation now with his obstinate ways of fighting the NFL on an issue that has 'guilt' smothered all over it.
 
WhyAlwaysMe said:
What if the footballs weren't under inflated and because they have no prior evidence to compare it to. What if this whole thing was a waste of time and money. What if, what if....
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Well no, I am just highlighting where your argument that the destroying of phones is in consequential, falls short
 
WhyAlwaysMe said:
What if the footballs weren't under inflated and because they have no prior evidence to compare it to. What if this whole thing was a waste of time and money. What if, what if....
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I've already questioned the NFL on their processes with how they conduct the ball handling but the thing that doesn't look good either is that the Pats terminated the employment of both employers upon the accusation. Now think about it, avoiding bad PR or just have doubt in what Brady was trying to convey with his non-involvement which he has every right to state that he didn't deflate the balls (literally) because he didn't but why not co-operate with the initial investigation and why is he admitting to destroying phones? You don't need to be a detective to work out that something is amiss with what occurred. If he says.. someone else destroyed his phone *enter conspiracy 101 clause* but Tom said.. yep.. it was me. I destroyed them. But why?? o_Oo_O

The NFL are equally to blame with not securing the process. They know they screwed up somewhat BUT are getting vindicated with Kraft taking immediate action (panic stations) by terminating the employment of those ball guys without their right to appeal their case.
 
WhyAlwaysMe said:
No I just said it doesn't look good. Brady said destroying his phones is a common practice.
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Read that he didn't destroy his previous phone.
Don't want to treat that as fact but we don't actually know what his common practice is.
 
Woodson said:
Kraft will let the dust settle for 2015 knowing that he can't do much about it and then dismiss both Brady & BB together.. thank them for building and making them a powerhouse and rewarding the fan base but the end of a marvellous era (please.. consider many other Patriots players who didn't resort to forcing such controversy in their long run at the top) is getting near to the end. It's not the end of the world for Kraft. He knows he's been embarrassed and even though he 'may wish' Brady not continue to grandstand to make this issue bigger than it is.. in 10 years time.. it's not going to be about Brady or BB.. but the way Kraft accepted his employers flaws with controversy to achieve further success.

Whether BB gets another gig as HC after NE, is something that we'll all have to wait and see. I didn't expect NE to remain a powerhouse in the last couple years but credit to them that ARE bigger than just Brady & BB. It's a team game at the end of the day. Brady is just souring his reputation now with his obstinate ways of fighting the NFL on an issue that has 'guilt' smothered all over it.
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You appear to be working from the position that Brady is guilty. Everything the NFL has presented suggests otherwise thus my want for this to go to trial. If an independent authority rules against Brady, I'll have no problem with that provided the decision is well reasoned.

As for Kraft, he has a knack for hiring the right people. Unfortunately, following Belichick and Brady is a poison chalice.
 
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