MFC Fans Only Non-Dees AFL discussion - 2015

[Proper Gander]

And that is a big part. Noone wants to be painted as racist but some don't want to lose their right to express their opinions at the footy. The interesting part is that the latter already happens with the anti social hotline...and people can't seem to differ between their own actions and the collective outcome. That in and of itself is not unusual (see climate change) but it shows just how disassociative we are.

You keep strange hours, Striker.

 

[Cannon82]

Or, alternatively, the people who you claim are "suddenly experts" are just people who watch football and read newspapers?

Obviously this issue has grown over the last few weeks. You don't even need to watch football to know this.

Or are you saying Adam Goodes has always been booed to this extent?

So you don't know when Adam started getting booed, but you do know everyone else is wrong about when it started. You realise that doesn't make a lot of sense, right?

You clearly don't understand my reasons at all. I'm guessing you don't understand of anything.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. You've used the analogy of Adam Goodes being a politician but then denied that people are booing him because of his policies?

FWIW, I think you missed the bit where I said I didn't think the booing was entirely racially motivated.



...You're not very smart, are you?

Goodnight!

Not going to bother starting all the hoo ha again, but lets just say your defensive strawman post isn't helping your argument. You want this to be about racism so you think it is.

 

[LeverPuller]

You keep strange hours, Striker.

Pot, kettle

 

[Proper Gander]

Pot, kettle

Well yeah but I would totally be asleep if I hadn't been woken earlier by Ron Barassi yodelling in the bathroom.

Weird, this hour. I don't really know what to do with it. I can hear birdies though. Does that mean Spring is approaching? I don't have much experience with this timeslot

 

[Topkent]

My opinion is that tarring everyone with the racist brush, is the same ignorance as everyone booing him
How is it acceptable to throw the word racist around to anyone you feel, but unacceptable to boo someone

 

[Proper Gander]

My opinion is that tarring everyone with the racist brush, is the same ignorance as everyone booing him
How is it acceptable to throw the word racist around to anyone you feel, but unacceptable to boo someone

That is the part I don't really get. I've heard a bit from media / AFL & SFC about a belief that there is a racial element etc, but everyone is pretty quick to explain that not everyone booing is likely to be racist.

Where is the everyone is racist part coming from?

 

[LeverPuller]

Well yeah but I would totally be asleep if I hadn't been woken earlier by Ron Barassi yodelling in the bathroom.

Weird, this hour. I don't really know what to do with it. I can hear birdies though. Does that mean Spring is approaching? I don't have much experience with this timeslot

Go for a run?

 

[LeverPuller]

That is the part I don't really get. I've heard a bit from media / AFL & SFC about a belief that there is a racial element etc, but everyone is pretty quick to explain that not everyone booing is likely to be racist.

Where is the everyone is racist part coming from?

Sydney's president said it. There's been an accusatory tone to a lot of it too.

 

[Topkent]

Sydney's president said it. There's been an accusatory tone to a lot of it too.

He isnt the only one, other people saying they are ashamed to be australian etc

 

[Proper Gander]

He isnt the only one, other people saying they are ashamed to be australian etc

That bit actually doesn't trouble me. I'm pretty ashamed. I don't think that is such a bad thing - I'm also proud and I think I can work pride and shame into different pockets of my brain. It's much what I do in respect of the Melbourne Football Club anyway.

I do think Striker, you & Cannon have a point that SFC / AFL etc may have stunk up the message somewhat.

 

[Proper Gander]

Go for a run?

Sod that. I'm going for a bacon roll instead. Last time I went for breakfast early I ran into Gerard Healy

 

[Topkent]

That bit actually doesn't trouble me. I'm pretty ashamed. I don't think that is such a bad thing - I'm also proud and I think I can work pride and shame into different pockets of my brain. It's much what I do in respect of the Melbourne Football Club anyway.

I do think Striker, you & Cannon have a point that SFC / AFL etc may have stunk up the message somewhat.

For me most of the people who are on the 'australians are racist' side dont give a s**t, they are just jumping on their moral high horse and trying to say they are better than the average scum punter who is just a bogan racist because they boo at the footy

 

[stretcharmstrong]

So this is the best and only solution to the 'problem', which I'm not convinced is actually a problem because some people unilaterally decided its now racist to boo Adam Goodes? If you hang around criminals, you're more than likely to be a criminal, so lets lock everybody up, evidence be damned. We'll be safer with those people off the streets.

Its s**t logic.

Why not stick directly to the topic and mount an argument?

The fact is, he is a person who is clearly being quite negatively impacted by this.

Where it is now - not where it started but where it has got to now - if it is not racism it is certainly bullying.

Or perhaps the princess should just toughen up?

 

[Proper Gander]

For me most of the people who are on the 'australians are racist' side dont give a s**t, they are just jumping on their moral high horse and trying to say they are better than the average scum punter who is just a bogan racist because they boo at the footy

I don't have much of a problem with being regarded as racist either. I think I am. I'm capable of negative generalisations on basis of race, gender, beliefs whatever. I don't think I'm alone and it's difficult to escape. I sort of attempt to drag those instincts into view and challenge what put them there and so forth.

I think I have wandered off topic a bit. I think the moral superiority tone to some of the debate is probably not helping except the media who profit from the division. At the end of the day though, I don't mind a bit of a boo but the Goodes thing is becoming a bit sinister

 

[wowlace]

Racist or not, the booing has caused a player to take leave. Probably time to give it rest and do something more productive with our time.

 

[LeverPuller]

Yeah. I made the joke re: Melbourne supporters but I never recall us booing him.

 

[Cannon82]

Why not stick directly to the topic and mount an argument?

The fact is, he is a person who is clearly being quite negatively impacted by this.

Where it is now - not where it started but where it has got to now - if it is not racism it is certainly bullying.

Or perhaps the princess should just toughen up?

What am I supposed to be mounting an argument against? If it's certainly bullying, why is it okay to bully the bullies?

 

[Tempy Tiger]

Stop pulling your pud. You aren't Alan Jones or Andrew Bolt are you? If that girl had of been placed in the middle of the ground and booed for two hours, and then got a repeat dose each week, you could compare the situation. The people booing are cowards that need the anonymity of the mob.

 

[Captain Jack]

Something that has annoyed me about this whole thing is the way in which the ape/girl incident gets talked about.

Many have blamed Goodes for his actions that night by saying "why did you have to pick out some poor child for public shaming?" as if he had a choice in the matter.

The incident was a split-second thing, and as we know Goodes is not one to let things slip so he turned around and pointed at the source of the "ape" jibe. He had no idea it was a young girl! It's not like it was some little kid coming up to him in a shopping centre and saying something awkward to his face. In that sort of situation you would hope to see some discretion, but in the heat of the moment on the footy field I think it's harsh and probably ignorant to expect a proud Aboriginal man to simply ignore that sort of comment, just because it might be some kid who doesn't know what she's saying.

 

[Proper Gander]

This is where I go full judgemental - while steeling myself for correction and all - in saying the other bit about the Collingwood girl thing that sort of bothers me is what on earth is going on when 13yos are allowed to scream those kind of things unaccountably anywhere. I don't have experience of children if I can help it - they make me nervous so I tend to act unreliable which generally gets me out of child minding favours - but on the occasions I have taken an 8yo nephew to the footy (rare now, has settled into a position as a Hawthorn supporter) there wasn't a chance of that being allowed to happen. What is going on when a kid gets to 13, apparently is allowed out in public, and people say she couldn't have known what she did was wrong? Or Alan Jones says that, anyway.

And why is it so damaging to be rightly called out for doing such a thing anyway? Is she a teenager or a crystal vase?

Okay so I'm probably not establishing authority as a child psychologist here though. In fact I will stop before I post "in my day..." because I get a feeling I may do this any moment.

 

[Cannon82]

Something that has annoyed me about this whole thing is the way in which the ape/girl incident gets talked about.

Many have blamed Goodes for his actions that night by saying "why did you have to pick out some poor child for public shaming?" as if he had a choice in the matter.

The incident was a split-second thing, and as we know Goodes is not one to let things slip so he turned around and pointed at the source of the "ape" jibe. He had no idea it was a young girl! It's not like it was some little kid coming up to him in a shopping centre and saying something awkward to his face. In that sort of situation you would hope to see some discretion, but in the heat of the moment on the footy field I think it's harsh and probably ignorant to expect a proud Aboriginal man to simply ignore that sort of comment, just because it might be some kid who doesn't know what she's saying.

Eh. I don't get the tunnel vision, like it was one thing or the other... no other choices. He had a choice, and because he's a proud aboriginal man, he chose to do it.

 

[RandB]

Something that has annoyed me about this whole thing is the way in which the ape/girl incident gets talked about.

Yeah, the context in how it all happened is pretty important to acknowledge. He came out pretty quickly the next day and made it about the issue of understanding rather than the girl and acknowledged she needed support as well.

I don't think he is perfect and some of the observations over the years of him as a dangerous slide in player are accurate but these are not even close to justifying what has become a frenzy of boo-ing on a mass scale.

I think his efforts off the ground have placed him in a pretty prominent position of responsibility and this is the key I think. From that pov I would expect him to be a little more thoughtful of all stake holders going forward because at the end of the day one man isn't the solution, we all are.

As such I think it is important to have clear and respectful messages because to get through to the ignorant people in this world that is what is required. I'm not defending ignorance and especially not defending racism but the very people who are the problem are the very people who need to be treated respectfully. It's not easy but that is how it has generally worked in life in order for us to move forward. Otherwise ignorance feeds on itself and grows.

On that, I thought his war dance wasn't a great look in that situation of a small opposition crowd of some hostile idiots intermingled with families and irrespective of his reasoning I didn't think it was constructive. After some time though I have put it down to the guy just being frustrated i.e. human. Hardly a crime. The problem though is that to some people, this is mixed messages and whether he agrees or not he needs to at least learn from it. I'm not saying he should hold back or pander to the masses I'm saying if the message is this important to make then make it well. Realise that a message is useless if nobody (or at least those who need to hear it the most) is listening.

The sad thing is we have gone a full 180 from that definitive moment of Nicky Winmar at Victoria Park. That was the modern genesis. A stand of aboriginal pride which needed to be made and resonated more and more off field to change the way we think and our standards at large in society about racial tolerance and understanding. Now the issue has rebounded from society (to a degree) back onto the football field with the culmination of all this boo-ing. It's a cacophony of racism, ignorance and general indignation and it's moronic.

 

[Proper Gander]

The sad thing is we have gone a full 180 from that definitive moment of Nicky Winmar at Victoria Park. That was the modern genesis. A stand of aboriginal pride which needed to be made and resonated more and more off field to change the way we think and our standards at large in society about racial tolerance and understanding. Now the issue has rebounded from society (to a degree) back onto the football field with the culmination of all this boo-ing. It's a cacophony of racism, ignorance and general indignation and it's moronic.

This. Totally true.

Ironically, the cluster outrage against Goodes and mess of opinion generates more urgency to a discussion about tolerance and understanding then pretty much anything he came up with off his own bat, or even his being awarded Australian of the year. Though I agree the way Goodes has often gone about things has appeared clumsy.

I wonder sometimes if these moments were easier to control in 1993. The social change of Internet, reality TV etc generating a kind of world of the individual - where the fact of having an opinion is worth more than the content, and the right to speak it is paramount regardless of the impact on another individual. But then I head back down the "in my day" path which is best avoided.

 

[PerfectFooty]

Yeah. I made the joke re: Melbourne supporters but I never recall us booing him.

We did boo him in round 6, but not a lot of people where interested in it so they where tiny boos. plus he was the sub so he wasn't booed until like late in the third quarter

 

[Captain Jack]

I wonder sometimes if these moments were easier to control in 1993. The social change of Internet, reality TV etc generating a kind of world of the individual - where the fact of having an opinion is worth more than the content, and the right to speak it is paramount regardless of the impact on another individual. But then I head back down the "in my day" path which is best avoided.

This is a good point. There are so many avenues out there for people to have their say, and hence our FB news feeds etc etc are flooded with the semi-informed opinions of every punter and his dog. It's hard to make sense of it all.