Collingwood 2016 Pre-Season Discussion

[good4footy]

Saw pretty much all the 1-4 years players at a pub in Richmond yesterday, watching the Golden State game and enjoying a couple of beers. No Treloar or Aish though.

Treloar won't even go to the suburb Richmond.

 

[mike123]

As most of you may or may not know, I love a good stat. So I've had a look at Ben Reid.

Since 2013 Ben Reid has played a measly 30 out of 67 possible games.

His season goal tallies are 25 goals from 21 games in 2013, 1 goal from 4 games in 2014 and 6 goals from 5 games in 2015. That makes 32 goals from 30 games.

Now I'm sure at least one person is thinking, "but he wasn't a forward for the whole year", and you're right. So I'll refine it as much as a I can. Round 10, 2013, Ben Reid kicked 3 goals for the first time in his career. His previous best was 2 goals in Round 1 and 2, 2007, the first and second games of his career.

Your still not there yet. Round ten was actually a one off game. He returned to the backline after that. Was only put forward again in round 15.

So he kicked 32 goals in 19 games.

Reid also went back to the backline in round 17 and against the gold coast with Brown out.

So he kicked 32 goals in 18 games.

He also played one game in the backline in 2014 and was subbed out.

So he kicked 32 goals in 17 games.

Also in his last two games of this only played forward for one quarter, but jut not confuse those things we count that one quarter as a whole game.

32 goals in 16 games.

2 goals per game.

 

[sirlothie]

Treloar won't even go to the suburb Richmond.

Except for training... and games...

 

[surfer1]

Considering Reid has been out for pretty much the last two years he won't weaken a position when he comes in.

or it could be argued a position, either forward or back, was weakened by his absence and if he can remain fit which position is his best for the team?

Seems to me given that he can play both he is best down back and pinch hit forward I don't think he and Frost are like for like if it's anyone its Marsh it he can continue to develop.

If you assume that Tooves may not be in best 22 then Reid up forward leaves a very inexperienced backline

 

[mike123]

or it could be argued a position, either forward or back, was weakened by his absence and if he can remain fit which position is his best for the team?

Seems to me given that he can play both he is best down back and pinch hit forward

I don't agree, for someone like Reid who's been out of the game for a while he needs to play one position and pinch hitting forward will just mess up his continuity.

For mine the forwardline during this time struggle the most in the absence of Reid.

I don't think he and Frost are like for like if it's anyone its Marsh it he can continue to develop.

Agree

If you assume that Tooves may not be in best 22 then Reid up forward leaves a very inexperienced backline

Experience down back will be fine with Brown, Marley and Langdon and maybe even Varcoe if he plays there. The others are just getting experience every game their play.

As long as our midfield holds up, which t should with the addition of Treloar our backline will be fine.

 

[surfer1]

I don't agree, for someone like Reid who's been out of the game for a while he needs to play one position and pinch hitting forward will just mess up his continuity.

For mine the forwardline during this time struggle the most in the absence of Reid.



Agree



Experience down back will be fine with Brown, Marley and Langdon and maybe even Varcoe if he plays there. The others are just getting experience every game their play.

As long as our midfield holds up, which t should with the addition of Treloar our backline will be fine.

Isn't it great to just discuss footy

 

[mike123]

Isn't it great to just discuss footy

I wouldn't come here if it wasn't

 

[Ketchup]

But he kicks goals and marks the footy

So did Jack Anthony.

I think I get it now.
We drafted Reid as a Forward in 2006 because his running and leading patterns were poor.

Amazing what confidence does, he is the ideal swing man capable of playing forward and back, I don't care where he plays as long as he is fit and is on the ground.

Plenty of drafted players end up playing a different role when they make AFL. If Ben Reid was a good forward theres no way he would of been moved back.

Then why does his Kick Goals then?

Because hes an AFL player, 95% of AFL players will kick goals given time in the forward line, doesn't mean they will be consistently good at it

 

[Pedro]

Your still not there yet. Round ten was actually a one off game. He returned to the backline after that. Was only put forward again in round 15.

So he kicked 32 goals in 19 games.

Reid also went back to the backline in round 17 and against the gold coast with Brown out.

So he kicked 32 goals in 18 games.

He also played one game in the backline in 2014 and was subbed out.

So he kicked 32 goals in 17 games.

Also in his last two games of this only played forward for one quarter, but jut not confuse those things we count that one quarter as a whole game.

32 goals in 16 games.

2 goals per game.

Do we have to make adjustments the other way because he kicked 3 or 4 playing on Andrew Walker?

 

[mike123]

Do we have to make adjustments the other way because he kicked 3 or 4 playing on Andrew Walker?

If we also want to take every quarter Reid played as not all his games where full games up forward.

 

[mike123]

Plenty of drafted players end up playing a different role when they make AFL. If Ben Reid was a good forward theres no way he would of been moved back.

So calling Reid a poor forward on games he played 6-7 years ago?

Because hes an AFL player, 95% of AFL players will kick goals given time in the forward line, doesn't mean they will be consistently good at it

Reid has shown during his time up forward he can consistently do it.

 

[Ketchup]

So calling Reid a poor forward on games he played 6-7 years ago?



Reid has shown during his time up forward he can consistently do it.

Im calling it based on the games hes played their over the past few years. But since it's been somewhat mentioned, if someone could come up with a reason why he was moved back in the first place that would be ace.

Reid is slow of the mark, leads to the wrong areas and seems to run into other players opportune leading zones. Reid is an outstanding defender, and a capable swingman, but if he played 22 games down forward I don't think he would kick more than 35 goals as any competent defender that doesn't play for Carlton or Brisbane would shut him down with ease.

 

[surfer1]

So calling Reid a poor forward on games he played 6-7 years ago?



Reid has shown during his time up forward he can consistently do it. But that's the intriguing thing I have no doubt he can be successful as a forward, but he is and can continue to be successful as a back. It gets down to where he is best for the team overall. Lots of differing views all have merit. Let's just hope he has no injuries in 2016

 

[surfer1]

I think I messed up my reply

 

[mike123]

Im calling it based on the games hes played their over the past few years. But since it's been somewhat mentioned, if someone could come up with a reason why he was moved back in the first place that would be ace.

Reid is slow of the mark, leads to the wrong areas and seems to run into other players opportune leading zones. Reid is an outstanding defender, and a capable swingman, but if he played 22 games down forward I don't think he would kick more than 35 goals as any competent defender that doesn't play for Carlton or Brisbane would shut him down with ease.

Considering he managed 25 goals in 10 games, I'm fairly confidant he kick more than 35 in 22 games.

Reid being slow off the mark is why I don't want him defence. Opposition forwards can beat him on the lead to easy.

As for him leading into other space, that a result of our congested forward line. If we didn't press so hard there would be more space to lead for our forwards.

 

[Apex36]

Im calling it based on the games hes played their over the past few years. But since it's been somewhat mentioned, if someone could come up with a reason why he was moved back in the first place that would be ace.

Serious yips in front of goal. Got so nervous lining up that he ended up with a run in to rival Josh Kennedy and accuracy that made Trav Cloke look like a dead-eye dick.

He could get the ball, just butchered it when he did. Much like Ben Sinclair when he started his career as a forward.

Reid is slow of the mark, leads to the wrong areas and seems to run into other players opportune leading zones. Reid is an outstanding defender, and a capable swingman, but if he played 22 games down forward I don't think he would kick more than 35 goals as any competent defender that doesn't play for Carlton or Brisbane would shut him down with ease.

Many issues you listed could be attributed to the fact he has been playing and training as a defender for about 6 years. In 2013 he was randomly swung forward with good results, and since then he's barely been able to get on the park. If he were to spend a full preseason training as a forward, working on his leading patterns and developing an understanding of how to function in the same forward line as Cloke he would likely be more impressive.
It's not going to happen though, as Buckley has already signaled that Reid will be a defender this year who might swing forward as necessary. We'll have to suffice with Reid being an amazing defender and a decent forward rather than seeing what he's capable of as a dedicated forward, and to be honest I'm ok with that. He provides an extremely tough matchup when thrown forward without a team being able to plan for him.

 

[TradeDraft]

The Older Boys back Tommorow.

See Howe at his 1st Pies Training Session

 

[left at home]

would rather reid started at chb in all games as his 50-55 kicki can set up us better,
then swing reid forward sometimes when needed. yes very good defences win grand finals
but so do good forward lines as well. we need both and if that takes reid going forward
and darcy going back on occasions to us a good team so be it

 

[Maggie5]

Im calling it based on the games hes played their over the past few years. But since it's been somewhat mentioned, if someone could come up with a reason why he was moved back in the first place that would be ace.

Reid is slow of the mark, leads to the wrong areas and seems to run into other players opportune leading zones. Reid is an outstanding defender, and a capable swingman, but if he played 22 games down forward I don't think he would kick more than 35 goals as any competent defender that doesn't play for Carlton or Brisbane would shut him down with ease.

Sorry, totally disagree re running patterns.
Have watched him play and IMO is a very good forward and leads well into right places and taking pressure off Cloke.
Sadly right now he is needed on backline.
That is the reality right now but who knows what will happen as others hopefully step up.

 

[jmac70]

So did Jack Anthony.

Plenty of drafted players end up playing a different role when they make AFL. If Ben Reid was a good forward theres no way he would of been moved back.


Because hes an AFL player, 95% of AFL players will kick goals given time in the forward line, doesn't mean they will be consistently good at it

You are speaking crap.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

As most of you may or may not know, I love a good stat. So I've had a look at Ben Reid.

Since 2013 Ben Reid has played a measly 30 out of 67 possible games.

His season goal tallies are 25 goals from 21 games in 2013, 1 goal from 4 games in 2014 and 6 goals from 5 games in 2015. That makes 32 goals from 30 games.

Now I'm sure at least one person is thinking, "but he wasn't a forward for the whole year", and you're right. So I'll refine it as much as a I can. Round 10, 2013, Ben Reid kicked 3 goals for the first time in his career. His previous best was 2 goals in Round 1 and 2, 2007, the first and second games of his career.

Since he didn't kick a goal from Round 1-9, his 2013 goal tally is exactly the same as above, so we'll assume that's because he was playing back. So in reality, he has actually kicked 32 goals in 21 games. That makes an average of 1.52 goals per game since around the time he shifted from defence to the forward line.

Compare that to the best of the best key forwards in the same period of time, all taking into account their injuries and missed games as well.

Ben Reid - 1.52
Lance Franklin - 3.01
Josh Kennedy - 2.77
Jarryd Roughead - 2.73
Jeremy Cameron - 2.7
Tom Hawkins - 2.5
Taylor Walker - 2.39
Travis Cloke - 2.38

Compare Ben Reid to the second forward of the above players.

Ben Reid - 1.52
Kurt Tippett - 2.35
Jack Darling - 1.84
Jack Gunston - 2.3
Jono Patton - 1.5
Mitch Clark - 1.75
Josh Jenkins - 1.89

For the sake of the argument I wanted to see how Jesse White goes.
In the same period of time - White 1.31 gpg.
Since joining Collingwood - White 1.30 gpg.

*ALL STATS ARE FROM 2013, SINCE BEN REID HAS BEEN A FORWARD.

So for Reid to be a threatening key forward he needs to increase his overall output. His stats as second fiddle just stack up with the rest of the competition. Mitch Clark and Jono Patton are essentially on par with Reid in terms of goal output and games played as a result of injury and mental health. With Jesse White being so close statistically, I'd rather have White playing and send Reid to solidify the backline.

So just to put those comments to bed, Ben Reid can play forward.

I like your commitment but it's not that straight forward. Ben Reid often was swung forward late in games and often still played back a lot of the time. If you want to get a true indication of how much he played forward you need to pull out the tapes of the season and work out the minutes he played forward and come up with a rough game number. It's not as straight forward as he played forward after round 9.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Your still not there yet. Round ten was actually a one off game. He returned to the backline after that. Was only put forward again in round 15.

So he kicked 32 goals in 19 games.

Reid also went back to the backline in round 17 and against the gold coast with Brown out.

So he kicked 32 goals in 18 games.

He also played one game in the backline in 2014 and was subbed out.

So he kicked 32 goals in 17 games.

Also in his last two games of this only played forward for one quarter, but jut not confuse those things we count that one quarter as a whole game.

32 goals in 16 games.

2 goals per game.

He often played both back and forward in quite a few of those games. It's probably 3 goals a game when you take into consideration the actual minutes he spent back as well as forward in those games.

 

[Apex36]

I like your commitment but it's not that straight forward. Ben Reid often was swung forward late in games and often still played back a lot of the time. If you want to get a true indication of how much he played forward you need to pull out the tapes of the season and work out the minutes he played forward and come up with a rough game number. It's not as straight forward as he played forward after round 9.

Correct. If I recall, he was played forward in round 9 in the absence of Cloke, who had gastro. He didn't play forward again until round 15 when he was swung forward against Carlton after Casboult(?) went down injured and we were too tall down back.

 

[Horaceg]

The debate with Reid is not can he play forward or back, the answer is yes he can, he is quality. There are some saying he can't play forward, absolutely false. Having the versatility is going to benefit, the discussion is will he play more time in defence or forward and what is the right balance. I think personnel available, form and the best match up against opposition will dictate.

I like what he brings as a back more than a forward but can see the araguement on both sides, it's not black and white with Reidy. We may have the same debate with Moore, we may the debate with Marsh one day. The more versatile we are as a team the better.

Stay fit Reidy

 

[jjsmitty8]

I like your commitment but it's not that straight forward. Ben Reid often was swung forward late in games and often still played back a lot of the time. If you want to get a true indication of how much he played forward you need to pull out the tapes of the season and work out the minutes he played forward and come up with a rough game number. It's not as straight forward as he played forward after round 9.

How dedicated do you think I am? lol. So I wasn't completely accurate, the aim was to prove that Ben Reid can play forward. I've still achieved that