Michael Voss vs. Luke Hodge

[Lethality]

Seems funny that you "remember this happening" when using it as a point to discredit Voss's potential to play HBF. It seems a little made up story and has about as much credibility as the crazy concept that Voss would have been a diminished player as a HBFlanker.

Nah it seems more like you're too ready to believe the story was fabricated. Error or disagreement with the Essendon thread posters doesn't prove fabrication, that's only a conclusion you're too willing to jump to in order to try and prove your pre-conceived ideas on the subject.

You also accepted the Essendon testimony without basic fact-checking which would prove it was wrong (SJ didn't kick 3 goals against Essendon that year), whereas you're too eager to claim fabrication on my part. So it's clear which way you lean here.

Nevertheless at least one poster corroborated my story by saying he remembered Hird playing a few games back there and talk that he was going to be a half-back in the style of Harvey which never eventuated. This fits nicely with what I said earlier about Sheedy shelving plans for Hird as a defender. As does the report that Hird didn't like being away from the action, which fits the perception that he didn't want to be there, as I reported. Even the timing was right, the report was after the facial injury in 2002 and I said circa 2005.

So it seems there are reports from the Essendon thread which agree with what I have said, which is that Hird didn't play half-back to the level that he is accustomed in other areas of the ground, that Sheedy scrapped the idea pretty early in the piece, that it happened later in his career, and that he didn't seem to be all that happy to be in the position. I really don't know why you claimed otherwise.

 

[Lethality]

Nope. Embley did not poll in the NS voting of both Grand Finals

I was referring to your 50% Norm Smith statement.

Where does this leave Hodge then? He's been in that position a few times now and yet no cigar.

That makes sense, the argument is that the terms of the award have changed or are not defined properly. There are plenty of pundits in the media who take the wording of 'most valuable' literally and others who just want to see the award given to the best player, like the American equivalents, so there is inconsistency even amongst them let alone the players. I remember Tom Harley saying that Jarryd Roughead should be the MVP because he's the most valuable to his team. It's certainly open for interpretation amongst the entire playing group who vote for the award.

 

[Monkey King]

I was referring to your 50% Norm Smith statement.

I don't much care what you were referring to. I made a point, you are referring to but a portion of it.

That makes sense, the argument is that the terms of the award have changed or are not defined properly.

Hmmm ... yeah nah. You need only look through the long list of MVP winners and see who the award goes to. Most always it's the best player in league that season, as it's been for a long time. Your explain aways on this award are really quite something I must say.

 

[Lethality]

I don't much care what you were referring to. I made a point, you are referring to but a portion of it.

The same point applies with Norm Smith voting, Judd's only played two Grand Finals, it would be more honest to say that he's polled in both of his Grand Finals rather than all of them, which suggest multiple games rather than two.

Hmmm ... yeah nah. You need only look through the long list of MVP winners and see who the award goes to. Most always it's the best player in league

Absolutely, but there are exceptions. There are also examples of lesser players winning MVPs and better players not getting one, so the fact that Voss has won the award and Hodge has not doesn't necessarily mean anything either.

 

[Monkey King]

The same point applies with Norm Smith voting, Judd's only played two Grand Finals, it would be more honest to say that he's polled in both of his Grand Finals rather than all of them, which suggest multiple games rather than two.

It's just as honest to say he polled in every Grand Final he played in and won a Norm Smith in half of them. Perhaps not convenient to the unparalleled claim re Hodge, but every bit as accurate and honest. All we have to judge from are the circumstances as they present. That one player's circumstances presented a greater sample of games is not an indication of ability.

Absolutely, but there are exceptions. There are also examples of lesser players winning MVPs and better players not getting one, so the fact that Voss has won the award and Hodge has not doesn't necessarily mean anything either.

Voss won twice, so yeah, I'd say far greater chance it means something than it doesn't. Even further when looking at the whole picture of All Australians, B&F's, and a Brownlow. But hey, explain it away as you will.


Anyway, I'm done with the discussion. I only chimed in to say I can understand why Hawk fans love Hodge. I'd love him too if he led the Blues to that many flags in the manner he has. But that adoration has washed over good sense in this thread; and all that's proceeded since I posted that observation has confirmed it to be so.

 

[Dom PC]

No, never said that....He's done well enough....Just not to the same degree of consistent high-level performance Hodge has.

No one is arguing Hodge has been as consistent as Voss, but when he needs to perform, he can more than match it with him when necessary....Ergo, he is every bit the same caliber of player Voss is....Hence, this thread.

So as players, you'd rather pick Hodge or Andrew McLeod over Leigh Matthews going into your clubs finals? All because Leigh doesn't have a Normsmith?

 

[MinerBoy]

Hodge is not a top tier player. Sorry. No slight on him. It's just a fact..

It's not a fact at all. It's an opinion and IMO an incorrect one.

He may not be the absolute cream at the top like GAJ (and I'm talking all time top 10-20 players) but to suggest he isn't a top tier player is frankly absurd.

 

[Monkey King]

It's not a fact at all. It's an opinion and IMO an incorrect one.

He may not be the absolute cream at the top like GAJ (and I'm talking all time top 10-20 players) but to suggest he isn't a top tier player is frankly absurd.

3 x All Australian over 14 seasons of football - not top tier, but no doubt you Hawk supporters all dance to the beat of your own man-love drum.

 

[MinerBoy]

3 x All Australian over 14 seasons of football - not top tier, but no doubt you Hawk supporters all dance to the beat of your own man-love drum.

Well that's it then......

If the Hawks best ever side was picked again and up to now, Hodge would be in it. That's top tier.

However, seeing as you used stats, a 3 x AA (once as captain), 2 x B&F, 2 x NSM, top 2 player in the club's best or second best ever era.......is um.........well pretty much top tier without question.

You can rate him where you like against Voss, Judd or Michael Sexton, I don't care. However as I said, anyone who says Hodge isn't top tier has an axe to grind or really isn't the football know it all they love to portray themselves as.

 

[Monkey King]

However, seeing as you used stats, a 3 x AA (once as captain), 2 x B&F, 2 x NSM, top 2 player in the club's best or second best ever era.......is um.........well pretty much top tier without question.

Top tier is the best of the best mate. Hodge does not belong in that group. You're kidding yourself if you think he does. 3 All Australians over 14 season and just 2 club B&F's pretty much sums it up.

I get it though, Hodge is a Hawthorn hero and it's a massively successful time for your club, so you blokes just can't reconcile his wider standing among the league's best players. I actually think all this success has fused a few wires with some you Hawk supporters when it comes to separating team from individual.

 

[MinerBoy]

I get it though.

Nah, I don't think you do. Hodge is comfortably amongst the upper echelon of footballers in his time playing the game.

What are you thoughts on Gary Ayres (1 BnF, 2 x NSM), John Platten (2 BnF, 1 Brownlow)....

2 BnFs in a Hawthorn great era aren't the same as 2 (or more) BnFs when Tony Free was winning them at Richmond.

 

[Gone Critical]

So it seems there are reports from the Essendon thread which agree with what I have said, which is that Hird didn't play half-back to the level that he is accustomed in other areas of the ground, that Sheedy scrapped the idea pretty early in the piece, that it happened later in his career, and that he didn't seem to be all that happy to be in the position. I really don't know why you claimed otherwise.

You asked for recall from Essendon supporters, all said there was no significant trial at HBF, some said that Hird would occasionally move himself to the backline when needed and he had a licence to do as he saw fit. All said he did well when he did. One mentioned as quoted below he thought he played there a couple of times coming back from the facial injury but in the end although he played "very well" Essendon couldn't afford to leave him there. He summed up his memory with the below sentence

"I think trialled is the wrong word in that, while he did play there and played well, it was never going to be a long-term thing".

So consensus would be Hird may have had a couple of games at HBF coming back from the facial injury. If he did it was very much a temporary measure which was never long term in planning. If he did play those games the recollection was he played very well. No one on the Essendon board claimed "Hird didnt play HB to the level he was accustomed to" as you are claiming they did. What was the strongest memory from the Essendon board was that James Hird at various times would move himself to the backline and do it very well.

All that seems to fly straight in the face of your claims that James Hird failed as a backline player and your attempt to tie that infomation as confirmation for your theory Voss would have struggled at HB also.

 

[detox]

Top tier is the best of the best mate. Hodge does not belong in that group. You're kidding yourself if you think he does. 3 All Australians over 14 season and just 2 club B&F's pretty much sums it up.

I get it though, Hodge is a Hawthorn hero and it's a massively successful time for your club, so you blokes just can't reconcile his wider standing among the league's best players. I actually think all this success has fused a few wires with some you Hawk supporters when it comes to separating team from individual.

Simon black has 3xAA. Is he a "second rate player" as well?

Nice touch on the "Hawthorn Hero" part too

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[Monkey King]

Nah, I don't think you do. Hodge is comfortably amongst the upper echelon of footballers in his time playing the game.

Rubbish. The last 3 seasons and Hawthorn's success over that period have changed how Hodge is viewed that's for sure, but even with that pushing him up, you could not in any reasonable way claim Hodge is a top tier player. A player like Voss is top tier and the voting in this thread shows the split pretty well.

What are you thoughts on Gary Ayres (1 BnF, 2 x NSM), John Platten (2 BnF, 1 Brownlow)....

Gary Ayres is a Hawthorn champion who had a terrific career - like Hodge, also not a top tier player from his generation. The Rat is certainly the closest of the 3 to top tier of his time; you should include he was a 5 x All Australian and Magarey Medalist though.

It's no slight. I wouldn't put Craig Bradley as top tier either and he was a champion player for Carlton. Kenny Hunter was named in Carlton Best Team for example and I wouldn't say he was top tier - and in fact I'd probably take Kenny over Hodge on a HBF if I was picking a team.

 

[Monkey King]

Simon black has 3xAA. Is he a "second rate player" as well?
[/QUOTE

Given you've indicated this is a quote of something I said, please provide a link.

 

[MinerBoy]

Well it is less Hawthorn man-love and more definitional then IMO in terms of our disagreement. I would say Platten and Bradley are both easily top tier players and I'd put Ayres in too.

 

[Monkey King]

Well it is less Hawthorn man-love and more definitional then IMO in terms of our disagreement. I would say Platten and Bradley are both easily top tier players and I'd put Ayres in too.

I would say Platten is more than Bradley. Not sure I'd put Braddles as top tier, as much of a champion player that he was. And it's the same as Hodge. He's a Hawthorn champion. But there's a definite gap between him and top tier players like GAJ, Franklin, Judd, Pendles, Fyfe, even Swan IMO. A definite gap. Not saying he hasn't put in top tier performances (and one top tier season) over his career, but plenty of players have done that.

 

[Lethality]

It's just as honest to say he polled in every Grand Final he played in and won a Norm Smith in half of them.

It's kind of misleading. Sort of like saying that Maurice Rioli has won a Norm Smith in every Grand Final he's played in.

Voss won twice, so yeah, I'd say far greater chance it means something than it doesn't.

Yes, and both in premiership years in which he didn't finish Top 20 for possessions or contested possessions or clearances. He didn't even win the BnF for Brisbane in 2002.

Even further when looking at the whole picture of All Australians, B&F's, and a Brownlow. But hey, explain it away as you will.

I'm not explaining away the awards, as I mentioned earlier some awards are more reliable than others, and I consider AAs, BnFs to be pretty solid. Brownlows definitely are not.

 

[Lethality]

You asked for recall from Essendon supporters, all said there was no significant trial at HBF, some said that Hird would occasionally move himself to the backline when needed and he had a licence to do as he saw fit.

Everyone already knows that Hird moved himself around as he saw fit. He had that license from Sheedy.

All said he did well when he did.

That's too low a bar, even Rioli, Harvey, Swan played 'well' when moved to half-back, but none played to their level. The fact that Essendon couldn't afford to play Hird back there for too long suggests this, as do other comments, including that he was 'loose' and had bags kicked on him.

No one on the Essendon board claimed "Hird didnt play HB to the level he was accustomed to" as you are claiming they did.

LOL, of course they did, just not in those exact words.

 

[detox]

But there's a definite gap between him and top tier players like GAJ, Franklin, Judd, Pendles, Fyfe, even Swan IMO. A definite gap.

Interesting. A definite Gap.

GAJ if you asked out of 100 football fans who would pick Hodge over him, you'd have 100 to GAJ. Thats a definite gap.

If you did the same to Judd, you would get 35-40 saying Hodge. A small gap, but a gap. The majority choose Judd. Some choose Hodge - as have a few high profile AFL Personalities on record.

As an exercise, I put your statement about Swan and Pendles to a footy thread I am involved in with 15 people. One of these 15 is a part-time recruiter. One of them an ex senior coach of 2 non-AFL clubs, another in charge of AFL at a household-name bookmaker, who also put the question to a few colleagues.

I asked the question of in hindsight, if you had a free draft of either who would you pick. I excluded any Hawthorn or Collingwood supporters.

VS Pendlebury - 6 Hodge, 8 Pendlebury.
VS Swan - 11 Hodge, 3 Swan

Your assertion that Hodge is some sort of Hawthorn club great only that doesn't spill over into the AFL elite is far away from the reality, and your assertion that there is a "definate" gap between him and Pendlebury and Swan is ludicrous. Hodge is easily in your discussed bracket according to any sane person who watches football.

 

[Procrastinator35]

On your three points ...

Hodge is not a top tier player. Sorry. No slight on him. It's just a fact.

Sorry mate but you've well & truly lost the plot here....This is a perfect exemplar of a total lack of football nous, judgement & credibility.....Of Reverse Hyperbole.

It's your opinion, not a fact & it's a poor one at that.

Hodge has grimace,.... er I mean Judd.... covered over the entirety of their careers, every day of the week.

 

[Dom PC]

Interesting. A definite Gap.

GAJ if you asked out of 100 football fans who would pick Hodge over him, you'd have 100 to GAJ. Thats a definite gap.

Do you think 175 votes to 29 votes is a definite gap?

 

[Procrastinator35]

3 x All Australian over 14 seasons of football - not top tier, but no doubt you Hawk supporters all dance to the beat of your own man-love drum.

Hodge & Voss are bona fide guns, champs & multi premiership winning captains....Judd, on the other hand, had 6 supreme years at West Coast, before taking his retirement fund at Carlton...Whom he left in ruin & led to another wooden spoon....And all for a cheap 2nd brownlow....

Wow, What a legacy.

Hodge/Voss....Superstar club captains & team men

Judd....Me, moi. meeeee....Over-rated down-hill skiing narcissist with a single premiership....Does not belong in this conversation.

 

[detox]

Do you think 175 votes to 29 votes is a definite gap?

Its about right actually that ratio. 8/10 would pick Voss. I always said Voss was ahead here but if Hodge could get another NS or put in 2 more extremely good years he'd be a chance of squaring it.





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[Gone Critical]

I would say Platten is more than Bradley. Not sure I'd put Braddles as top tier, as much of a champion player that he was. And it's the same as Hodge. He's a Hawthorn champion. But there's a definite gap between him and top tier players like GAJ, Franklin, Judd, Pendles, Fyfe, even Swan IMO. A definite gap. Not saying he hasn't put in top tier performances (and one top tier season) over his career, but plenty of players have done that.

Interesting. A definite Gap.

GAJ if you asked out of 100 football fans who would pick Hodge over him, you'd have 100 to GAJ. Thats a definite gap.

If you did the same to Judd, you would get 35-40 saying Hodge. A small gap, but a gap. The majority choose Judd. Some choose Hodge - as have a few high profile AFL Personalities on record.

As an exercise, I put your statement about Swan and Pendles to a footy thread I am involved in with 15 people. One of these 15 is a part-time recruiter. One of them an ex senior coach of 2 non-AFL clubs, another in charge of AFL at a household-name bookmaker, who also put the question to a few colleagues.

I asked the question of in hindsight, if you had a free draft of either who would you pick. I excluded any Hawthorn or Collingwood supporters.

VS Pendlebury - 6 Hodge, 8 Pendlebury.
VS Swan - 11 Hodge, 3 Swan

Your assertion that Hodge is some sort of Hawthorn club great only that doesn't spill over into the AFL elite is far away from the reality, and your assertion that there is a "definate" gap between him and Pendlebury and Swan is ludicrous. Hodge is easily in your discussed bracket according to any sane person who watches football.

In a way I think this is the crux of this argument. Hodge is a top player in the comp but the meaning of that term can vary. If we consider the players being talked about here the top tier to me would be

Voss, Buckley, Hird, GAJ, Buddy, Judd with Fyfe likely to enter

The closest next player for mine is Sam Mitchell. Pendles, Swan, Hodge, Bradley as top level as they have been don't make it into the very top grouping of players. For me that's the argument it's no slight on Hodge or Pendles etc because they have been great but they don't quite measure up to the very very best.