Society/Culture Are we turning a blind eye to indigenous problems?

[kickazz]

The issue on their part, as I say, is leadership. They need someone(s) who isn't going to sit down and buy into all the excuses. And note, there, that I did not say they weren't excuses. I'm saying that there has to come a time when those excuses are recognised as an impediment.

I always say that people need to acknowledge the difference between reasons and excuses.

Reasons explain truthfully why something is as it is. It acknowledges the disadvantage and is less judgemental. It can provide a trigger for taking special steps where needed to make a change.

Excuses are just using those valid reasons as a way to justify not trying.

 

[Malifice]

Yes, yes, we're all aware of that. I would have thought that was apparent in some of the posts being made here.

Standing there wringing your hands crying "oh, the humanity" while others are talking about possible solutions isn't overly helpful though.

Derp. I have been talking solutions. Go back and read.

Go argue about changing the date of a holiday or something, that's your niche.

Oh bugger off with that drivel.

My point was it's a bit rich blaming Aboriginal poverty and social problems on people 'not taking responsibility' even though that certainly plays a part. I have Aboriginal kids in my office telling me stories about how Mum is in jail, her 14 year old brother hung himself a week ago, her father doesnt make her go to school (and instead sexually abuses her, and threatens to kill her, when he is not in jail himself) and how everyone she knows is on Meth. About the racism she endures on a daily basis.

Put yourself in those shoes for a second, and see how hard it is to 'take responsibility' to change that.

I see these kids coming up in that environment. It's no surprise where most of them end up. And the cycle then continues. And then we have another generation of people dealing with the same shit, and having making a choice to get away from that shit be all but impossible.

Try telling these kids to harden up, or not get sucked into that shit when it's all they've ever known, and it's all around them constantly. If you dropped your kid in that environment at an early age I could all but assure you I could tell you where he would end up.

If you're born to shit parents, in shit curcumstances, and in poverty, odds are you're not going to make it. If you're born to wealthy parents, provided the best schools, and raised right odds are you wont. Free willl isnt something one just exersizes. Its a product of environment.

The process to enact change is a generational one (multi-generational in fact). What we have to be mindful of is the above levels of entrenched disadvantage and poverty.

It's also why I've never understood people who move to Rockingham or Frankston. When your kids grow up as pot heads, petty criminals and teenage mothers, you've only got one person to blame.

The above applies to everyone by the way. Its just as an Aborigianal person, its all too often the norm, and not the outlier.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

But this is the problem. There is strong cultural attachment to place, to the land. So they won't just move somewhere else, not without being forced to.

I can't see this "solution" working out well. It will just create another dispossessed generation and the social problems won't go away.

The government cant force them to move but they can say to those who have been on welfare for a long time that if they don't relocate to locations that have more jobs that they will lose their welfare support.

I know it sounds harsh but there is no other option. If they stay in places with no jobs than there are only 2 possibilities , either welfare or nothing and neither is any good and will not help close the gap at all. Jobs are a must.

Aboriginals are just going to have to let go of some aspect of their culture because a 3rd world culture will not deliver 1st world outcomes.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

You said there was no evidence at all for them being treated worse at all. Do you actually believe that?

I am sure there are individual examples of aboriginal people being treated poorly but I don't think they are systematically oppressed.

 

[Admiral Byng]

The government cant force them to move but they can say to those who have been on welfare for a long time that if they don't relocate to locations that have more jobs that they will lose their welfare support.

I know it sounds harsh but there is no other option. If they stay in places with no jobs than there are only 2 possibilities , either welfare or nothing and neither is any good and will not help close the gap at all. Jobs are a must.

Aboriginals are just going to have to let go of some aspect of their culture because a 3rd world culture will not deliver 1st world outcomes.

I actually broadly agree with this.

Only problem is that we can't make people let go of parts of their culture, or tell them what parts, or even make that suggestion. That seems to have been ruled out as an acceptable option in this day and age. So as I see it there are very few other solutions left. Unless something comes along that makes remote and semi-arid bush a thing of economic value I can't see how things are going to improve significantly.

 

[Malifice]

The government cant force them to move but they can say to those who have been on welfare for a long time that if they don't relocate to locations that have more jobs that they will lose their welfare support.

Will the government also change the law to recognise Native Title claims over that land when they move?

At present the Law states that if Aboriginal people move off their land and stop practicing traditional customs on it they lose the right to Native Title of the land:

The concept of native title itself has been described variously as a "recognition space"[ii] and a "bundle of rights".[iii]However, the metaphor that has received most critical attention is the use of "tide of history" to explain the impact of the passing of time on the extinguishment of native title. This description was first used by Justice Brennan in the Mabo case in a passage that foreshadowed the difficulty indigenous Australians would have in making out a legal case for the continued existence of native-title rights and interests. It was most famously adopted by Justice Olney to conclude his rejection of the native-title claim of the Yorta Yorta people: "The tide of history has indeed washed away any real acknowledgment of their traditional laws and any real observance of their traditional customs. The foundation of the claim to native title in relation to the land previously occupied by those ancestors having disappeared, the native-title rights and interests previously enjoyed are not capable of revival. This conclusion effectively resolves the application for a determination of native title."

https://griffithreview.com/articles/turning-the-tide-of-history/

 

[Malifice]

I don't think Aboriginal people are systematically oppressed.

Lol!

Make an application for a rental property in Perth with the surname Yarran, Garlett, Pickett, Farmer or Ugle on the application form and see how far you get.

 

[Proud SJW]

Derp. I have been talking solutions. Go back and read.

Derp. Actually most of the time I don't read much into what you have to say. It's like falling asleep in church listening to a boring pastor. And then I'd get in trouble for kicking a pew and making too much noise.

As to the subject at hand:
I. Know.

Who the hell do you think is more likely to instill or sustain that victim mentality, me, or you? That's the part you just seem completely unable to understand.
There are a lot of people in the world who know about as much as you claim to, and you'll just have to accept they don't all accept your... solutions.

 

[Proud SJW]

Lol!

Make an application for a rental property in Perth with the surname Yarran, Garlett, Pickett, Farmer or Ugle on the application form and see how far you get.

That's not the system, that's either common sense or stereotypical racism, depending on whether or not you happen to be the property owner or a SJW.

It's been quite amply demonstrated that "the system" favours aboriginals in many ways.

 

[Power Raid]

Question remains, how do you create work? It is not something we can just do at will in mainstream society, we have areas of high unemployment in the major cities. You can't just create work out of nothing, there needs to be some economic imperative behind it, you have to provide some goods or services that somebody wants to pay money for. Art and tourism is all very well, but does not seem doable on a large enough scale.

Ironically it is only lefties and Greenies that would take the sort of holiday to a remote place to indulge in nature tourism and learn about the culture. All the RWNJs that screech about welfare bludgers probably prefer to head off to Thailand to see the lady-boys.

I don't see many lefties or greenies in the outback unless it relates to a day trip in an aircon bus to protest or lobby indigenous folk.

Twiggy might be a hard arse but if you go to his head office, mine sites and review his aboriginal contractors list you will see there is substance behind his talk. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-02/andrew-forrest-signs-deal-for-5000-new-indigenous-jobs/8320162

He is one of the guys who has lead the way in the industry and forced many others to follow suit.


Money also isn't an issue for many areas but money alone will not solve the problem unless "job" strings are attached as is done in the article
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/rio-tinto-in-2b-native-title-deal-ng-ya-166412

 

[Proud SJW]

In the interests of honest open discussion, please do. Uncomfortable truths should be confronted, not ignored. We should all try to understand why those barriers get out up, only then can we hope to pull them down.

So do tell. Ignore any non constructive responses like, "racist" or the like.

Sorry, it's more a privacy issue.
Can't have too many people knowing who I am, it's a small world

 

[Taylor]

At present the Law states that if Aboriginal people move off their land and stop practicing traditional customs on it they lose the right to Native Title of the land

Would you call the acts being committed on that land traditional practices at present?

Sometimes I think 1,000 police officers and counselors should get on a bus, head out to these places and interview everyone. Almost interrogate everyone. Find the names, accounts of assault and sexual assault, record the interviews - then load up the buses with the arrested accused and ship them to a holding facility to face speedy and fair trial.

There are too many accounts of violence, neglect and abuse for there not to be a cultural problem and the cleanest way to fix a problem like that is to get the problems away, put the children into counseling, facilitate new ways of life.

Nobody instinctively knows how to parent, you learn it from your parents and when those people are spending all day either drinking, beating you up or raping you then you don't stand a chance.

Call it Operation Cycle Breaker.

Just end it.

 

[Power Raid]

Tayl0r, I'd like to give you a like but it's hard to like something that is so heartbreaking

 

[Freo Big Fella]

Welfare for work/work for the dole/mutual obligation in remote communities is a great idea that's been repeatedly screwed up by Government's of both stripes.

Labor's most recent "reforms" recognised work needed to be relevant and specialised to each community, but failed to put any effective structure on the ground, so you wound up with situations where 20 people were being paid to mow the same patch of lawn in the middle of town.

Then Abbott doubled down by cutting staff, then opening the gates to his corrupt private training mates; forcing locals to sign up for useless shit like screen printing and sewing classes with no specialist staff to teach them on the ground (or worse, by correspondence), then cutting off welfare for people who recognised they were getting no long-term skills out of it and bailing out.

Programs need to be effectively supervised (yes, that does mean spending more money to get staff out to even the most remote communities) and specialised (things like cleaning up at the local art gallery, helping to care for sick relatives/community members need to be recognised. I've even seen men at Blackstone effectively deputised by local cops to help keep kids on the straight and narrow, rat out sly groggers and diffuse domestic violence situations - stuff that should definitely count towards their CDP obligations.)

Non politically correct but imo the worst thing that ever happened to aboriginal people was the left demanding they be paid a minimum wage for station work. Result was they all got booted off the land en mass, congregating in towns like Roebourne without prospect of work. Overnight they went from having a purpose in life, the extended families well fed housed and connected to their traditional lands. Now we are a couple of generations into a disenfranchised, purposeless welfare fuelled alcoholic existence.

Seriously, **** off.

The idea that the Kimberley, Pilbara and NT squattocracy were being somehow benevolent by allowing local Aboriginals to work for food is one of the most utterly misleading myths people perpetuate. Conditions at places like Wave Hill (prior to the walk-off) and Landsdowne were arguably worse than a lot of the bottom rung of modern day communities.

That doesn't excuse Whitlam and Fraser for screwing the transition, but don't pretend these rich arseholes gave a shit about anything more than an easily exploitable workforce - attitudes happily illustrated by the vile vote suppression campaigns they ran in the Kimberley in the 70s and 80s; trying to keep genuine reformers like Ernie Bridge out of office.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Will the government also change the law to recognise Native Title claims over that land when they move?

At present the Law states that if Aboriginal people move off their land and stop practicing traditional customs on it they lose the right to Native Title of the land:



https://griffithreview.com/articles/turning-the-tide-of-history/

If that will help than change the law. I am not against providing support to help them relocate .

 

[Xsess]

Tayl0r, I'd like to give you a like but it's hard to like something that is so heartbreaking

Seriously it would take nothing short of the scorched earth policy he advocates to break that cycle.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Lol!

Make an application for a rental property in Perth with the surname Yarran, Garlett, Pickett, Farmer or Ugle on the application form and see how far you get.

Fair point it would be harder for indigenous people with rental applications. This is the downside of identity politics were people are judged based on which identity they belong to rather than as individuals.

This is also most likely been caused in large due to the fact that certain problems that we have discussed in this thread are more heavily concentrated amongst indigenous Australians than the rest of society.

 

[Fat Yak]

But this is the problem. There is strong cultural attachment to place, to the land. So they won't just move somewhere else, not without being forced to.

That's not true, When Hall's Creek and Fitzroy Crossing introduced tough booze bans, many up and left the towns for Broome, never to return.
( halls creek to broome 686 ks)

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

I will tell you how you create more work/jobs.

1.Lower tax rates for both big and small business.
2.Reduce the costs of energy by building a coal fired power station.
3.Reduce red tape.
4.Have a more business friendly IR framework.

Yeah, you've gone the wrong tack again.

They're urban ideas, not really applicable to the towns and communities.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Question remains, how do you create work? It is not something we can just do at will in mainstream society, we have areas of high unemployment in the major cities. You can't just create work out of nothing, there needs to be some economic imperative behind it, you have to provide some goods or services that somebody wants to pay money for. Art and tourism is all very well, but does not seem doable on a large enough scale.

Ironically it is only lefties and Greenies that would take the sort of holiday to a remote place to indulge in nature tourism and learn about the culture. All the RWNJs that screech about welfare bludgers probably prefer to head off to Thailand to see the lady-boys.

There's plenty of RWNJ's on the outback roads.

I work near the start of the Gunbarrel Hwy and the Canning Stock Route and not far from the Great Central Road (in WA terms. I have travelled this particular road) I would be pretty confident that a larger percentage of the users would be RWNJ's.

It doesn't matter where you try to put traveller's alignments, if you drive into a filthy shithole you're not stopping there except to get fuel and supplies.

As far as art and tourism go, it may not be much but it could be something for other endeavours to piggyback off.

I still honestly think that Australia should be the world's nuclear repository.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Yeah, you've gone the wrong tack again.

They're urban ideas, not really applicable to the towns and communities.

I agree that most remote towns and communities heavily populated with aboriginals are simply not economically viable. However we can still create more rural jobs and jobs in large regional towns. We need more people living outside our capital cities .

For example in rural towns penalty rates are a massive job killer, small rural businesses simply can not afford to pay them.

 

[Frank Bunn]

My point was it's a bit rich blaming Aboriginal poverty and social problems on people 'not taking responsibility' even though that certainly plays a part. I have Aboriginal kids in my office telling me stories about how Mum is in jail, her 14 year old brother hung himself a week ago, her father doesnt make her go to school (and instead sexually abuses her, and threatens to kill her, when he is not in jail himself) and how everyone she knows is on Meth. About the racism she endures on a daily basis.

Put yourself in those shoes for a second, and see how hard it is to 'take responsibility' to change that.

I see these kids coming up in that environment. It's no surprise where most of them end up. And the cycle then continues. And then we have another generation of people dealing with the same shit, and having making a choice to get away from that shit be all but impossible.

Kids can't take responsibility for their parents actions. That's why the state has to step in and remove these kids from the toxic environments. And the authorities should not have to deal with criticism from numpty politicians like Victorian Greens MP for Northcote, Lidia Thorpe .

17,000 children in out-of-home-care across the country. It’s just ludicrous. Saying sorry says that you’re not going to do it again and we still continue to see our children being ripped out their mothers’ arms.​

If you're born to shit parents, in shit curcumstances, and in poverty, odds are you're not going to make it. If you're born to wealthy parents, provided the best schools, and raised right odds are you wont. Free willl isnt something one just exersizes. Its a product of environment.

The process to enact change is a generational one (multi-generational in fact). What we have to be mindful of is the above levels of entrenched disadvantage and poverty.

It's not about circumstances, wealth/poverty or Aboriginality. You can be born to shit circumstances and poverty but if you have good parents and make good decisions then you have every chance of succeeding in life.

And there's little point discussing the pros and cons of the 'best schools' when kids don't even attend.

It's also why I've never understood people who move to Rockingham or Frankston. When your kids grow up as pot heads, petty criminals and teenage mothers, you've only got one person to blame.

Most people who grow up and live in those areas would send their kids to school and want the best for them. But it's patronising to assume that the circumstances dictate outcomes.

I was chatting to this half-Aborigine, young guy on the bus the other day. Had plenty of family and drug issues, and had Tourettes. Drove his family from SA to Geelong to get work - including a fish tank of 200 fish in the back seat! Said he had some problems on one street in Corio where they lived but when his missus got pregnant again he moved them to the next street and no issues. That's a guy making good decisions for his family.

 

[Pie eyed]

The argument is summarised as:

'Aboriginal people are doing it tough; they're the most disadvantaged people in contemporary Aussie society, by any metric. As a broad group, they face uniquely higher levels of chronic poverty, violence, victimisation, illiteracy, disease and drug and alcohol abuse.'

'Thats why we should cut them off from welfare, and stop helping them.'

'Then they would be better off.'

Im confused how he got from the initial premise of his argument, to the proposed solution, and then reached that conclusion.

I think you could reduce it to "tough love" which in reality would equate to "tough shit".

 

[strung_out7]

Lol!

Make an application for a rental property in Perth with the surname Yarran, Garlett, Pickett, Farmer or Ugle on the application form and see how far you get.

If they have a good rental history and a job, they will be given the same treatment as everyone else applying for the same house. Don't make stuff up Mal

 

[Malifice]

If they have a good rental history and a job, they will be given the same treatment as everyone else applying for the same house. Don't make stuff up Mal

Yeah right. Keep telling yourself that mate.