Society/Culture Does the Australian flag have an image problem?

[kickazz]

I think that the culture that has existed here for tens of thousands of years should be recognised as a part of the flag; the flag would represent us as a whole with that small part simply recognising that Australia existed long before 1788.

I'm not sure why you feel like we have to separate our pre-colonial history and set it aside as something 'other' as if it has nothing to do with the nation we are now.

It's probably just a matter of personal preference for what I would like on the flag. Putting the aboriginal flag onto the national flag is separating our pre-colonial history - on it's separate part on the flag.

A can abide people who specifically want that on the flag - I get that point of view and I don't think it is "wrong". But it is a kind of separation, a selection of part of (and arguably the most deserving such part by the way) Australia to get its own special place on the flag. I'd prefer a flag that has a broader remit. I guess the downside of trying to include everyone equally in that sense is that you might end up with something somewhat meaningless. But does that matter? Canada's maple leaf isn't all that significant or profound but it looks nice and is definitely Canadian.

 

[kickazz]

The image problem comes more from Xenophobes hijacking it such as Pauline Hanson draping herself in it; or the bogans wearing it as a cape during the Cronella riots.

I must admit it is unfortunate and sad as a result that when I see the Australian flag being flown by someone's car or outside their house I wonder what the person's intentions are.

Yeah this.

I think waving a flag or having a flagpole out the front yard is fine, and being proud of Australia is also fine, the country has plenty of faults but there is a lot to like about our home too.

But 100% if I drive by a house that has it, the thought crosses my mind - what are their intentions? It's a bit sad. In some ways things might get better as we are starting to see the nutjobs wave that red one instead.

Perhaps if we changed it and got rid of the union jack, understanding their intentions might be easier because you'd get people refusing to fly the new one and others happy with the new one.

I don't know. At the end of the day it's just a flag.

 

[Gethelred]

How many thousands of years has this culture existed?

That, I suppose, depends entirely on what is meant by culture. The following site - which depicts the patterns of the stars accurate to a few degrees - implies scientific understandings of astronomy for at least 11000 years, predating Stonehenge by at least 5000 years.

Wurdi Youang - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But that's one site. This page is from the National Museum, and references older habitation and archeological sources for the 65000 year figure:

Evidence of first peoples

At least 65,000 years ago: Archaeological evidence of first peoples on the Australian continent

www.nma.gov.au

 

[Gough]

Yeah this.

I think waving a flag or having a flagpole out the front yard is fine, and being proud of Australia is also fine, the country has plenty of faults but there is a lot to like about our home too.

But 100% if I drive by a house that has it, the thought crosses my mind - what are their intentions? It's a bit sad. In some ways things might get better as we are starting to see the nutjobs wave that red one instead.

Perhaps if we changed it and got rid of the union jack, understanding their intentions might be easier because you'd get people refusing to fly the new one and others happy with the new one.

I don't know. At the end of the day it's just a flag.

Billy Bragg spoke about the difficulties of reclaiming the St George's Cross from the fascists in The Progressive Patriot and how nice it was to see being flown when England played football without it having the inferences that it once had.

 

[Father Jack]

It's probably just a matter of personal preference for what I would like on the flag. Putting the aboriginal flag onto the national flag is separating our pre-colonial history - on it's separate part on the flag.

A can abide people who specifically want that on the flag - I get that point of view and I don't think it is "wrong". But it is a kind of separation, a selection of part of (and arguably the most deserving such part by the way) Australia to get its own special place on the flag. I'd prefer a flag that has a broader remit. I guess the downside of trying to include everyone equally in that sense is that you might end up with something somewhat meaningless. But does that matter? Canada's maple leaf isn't all that significant or profound but it looks nice and is definitely Canadian.

The point is that having the Aboriginal flag in the corner makes it part of the flag, not separate from it. It's not about singling out any specific group, it's about recognising that that the flag would include everyone, including the pre-colonial cultures. It's saying that modern Australia includes all the different groups that make it up today, and also the groups that came before the modern nation was founded.

The current flag starts at colonisation and looks forward from that point, swapping the Aboriginal flag in for the Union Jack would look in both directions. Everyone is therefore included equally, as we all share that history now. That's how I'd see it.

 

[ExcitementMachine]

The point is that having the Aboriginal flag in the corner makes it part of the flag, not separate from it. It's not about singling out any specific group, it's about recognising that that the flag would include everyone, including the pre-colonial cultures. It's saying that modern Australia includes all the different groups that make it up today, and also the groups that came before the modern nation was founded.

The current flag starts at colonisation and looks forward from that point, swapping the Aboriginal flag in for the Union Jack would look in both directions. Everyone is therefore included equally, as we all share that history now. That's how I'd see it.

We have another country's flag on ours, Britain. Does their history, traditions, encompass one thing, one thing only, colonialism?
I'm still scratching my head how you and your scenario includes everyone equally?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Only a moron would have some pride in any national flag, let alone one with a kangaroo on it.

The same morons that have pride when their nation wins gold at the Olympics? The same morons that have pride when scientists / doctors from their nations make life saving discoveries?

If not are you suggesting that the above is OK but having pride in a flag makes one a moron?

That would be absurd wouldn't it.

 

[Gethelred]

The same morons that have pride when their nation wins gold at the Olympics? The same morons that have pride when scientists / doctors from their nations make life saving discoveries?

If not are you suggesting that the above is OK but having pride in a flag makes one a moron?

That would be absurd wouldn't it.

You didn't do any of those things. You aren't even associated with them beyond sharing a citizenship.

How is taking pride in things you had nothing to do with not absurd?

 

[kickazz]

You didn't do any of those things. You aren't even associated with them beyond sharing a citizenship.

How is taking pride in things you had nothing to do with not absurd?

Geez take a look at misery guts

 

[Soggy2112]

You didn't do any of those things. You aren't even associated with them beyond sharing a citizenship.

How is taking pride in things you had nothing to do with not absurd?

We’re literally on a site full of people emotionally invested in how well 22 18-35 year olds do at kicking a ball on a weekend.

There’s nothing wrong with being proud of your nationality, human beings naturally find worth in belonging to a community.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You didn't do any of those things. You aren't even associated with them beyond sharing a citizenship.

How is taking pride in things you had nothing to do with not absurd?

Well I guess if and when the day comes your blues achieve success you shouldn't be proud then.

OK you do you mate.

 

[sataris]

You didn't do any of those things. You aren't even associated with them beyond sharing a citizenship.

How is taking pride in things you had nothing to do with not absurd?

Bit of cognitive dissonance on this one (which is fine). We're all sportsball fans and I'm sure we all use the royal 'we' when talking about the clubs we follow.

It doesn't make any sense of course, I'm not involved in any of the success or failure of the swans.

Although my lucky underwear does deserve some of the credit.

 

[Gethelred]

We’re literally on a site full of people emotionally invested in how well 22 18-35 year olds do at kicking a ball on a weekend.

There’s nothing wrong with being proud of your nationality, human beings naturally find worth in belonging to a community.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. What I said was that it's absurd, because an awful lot of what we as a species do is genuinely absurd.

Well I guess if and when the day comes your blues achieve success you shouldn't be proud then.

OK you do you mate.

Weird flex but okay.

Proud would be the wrong term, anyway. Relieved would be more accurate, followed by vindicated, followed by happiness. And all three would still be genuinely absurd feelings, because my investment in them is illogical.

That I recognise this doesn't detract from those feelings.

Geez take a look at misery guts

Eh. Dunno what you want me to tell you. Embrace of life's inherent absurdity is a source of deep amusement, coupled with the priceless ability to not take oneself overly seriously.

Bit of cognitive dissonance on this one (which is fine). We're all sportsball fans and I'm sure we all use the royal 'we' when talking about the clubs we follow.

It doesn't make any sense of course, I'm not involved in any of the success or failure of the swans.

Although my lucky underwear does deserve some of the credit.

Not really. One can hold the position that their enjoyment of something doesn't have any particular significance in the overall scheme of things - that is, enjoyment of it is illogical and excessive investment is absurd - and still place importance and enjoyment in it.

We're not logical creatures. We don't make the best decisions for the right reasons, and we are genuinely rather silly across the board as a species. Nowhere is this more prominent than in the investment people have in sport or their country. Or the fact that the most watched content on youtube is cat compilations.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. What I said was that it's absurd, because an awful lot of what we as a species do is genuinely absurd.

Weird flex but okay.

Proud would be the wrong term, anyway. Relieved would be more accurate, followed by vindicated, followed by happiness. And all three would still be genuinely absurd feelings, because my investment in them is illogical.

That I recognise this doesn't detract from those feelings.

Eh. Dunno what you want me to tell you. Embrace of life's inherent absurdity is a source of deep amusement, coupled with the priceless ability to not take oneself overly seriously.

Not really. One can hold the position that their enjoyment of something doesn't have any particular significance in the overall scheme of things - that is, enjoyment of it is illogical and excessive investment is absurd - and still place importance and enjoyment in it.

We're not logical creatures. We don't make the best decisions for the right reasons, and we are genuinely rather silly across the board as a species. Nowhere is this more prominent than in the investment people have in sport or their country. Or the fact that the most watched content on youtube is cat compilations.

How is what I said a weird 'flex'?

In any case you stated I had zero impact in our nation's gold medals, alluding that I shouldn't be proud. That is the impression anyway.

Clearly that is no different to being emotionally involved in your footy team. OK so you're not as invested as others. Like I said you do you.

Either either doesn't make Freddies claim that only morons take pride in their nations flag correct. By that logic anyone who cheers on Oz with zero tangible involvement is a moron- that is absurd.

Further and off topic, you mentioned we as human kind are not logical. But it'd be a stretch to suggest we're illogical. Would still be making spears in the stone ages if that was the case.

 

[Gethelred]

How is what I said a weird 'flex'?

"Because you think something is absurd means you're not allowed to enjoy it."

In any case you stated I had zero impact in our nation's gold medals, alluding that I shouldn't be proud. That is the impression anyway.

No. I stated that your pride in it is absolutely absurd. There's no 'therefore' at play here.

Clearly that is no different to being emotionally involved in your footy team. OK so you're not as invested as others. Like I said you do you.

Up yours.

Just because I know something is an absurd thing to do does not entail that I don't ascribe meaning to it.

Either either doesn't make Freddies claim that only morons take pride in their nations flag correct. By that logic anyone who cheers on Oz with zero tangible involvement is a moron- that is absurd.

Yes. That's the whole point.

Further and off topic, you mentioned we as human kind are not logical. But it'd be a stretch to suggest we're illogical. Would still be making spears in the stone ages if that was the case.

To say that we are not logical does not mean we are illogical all the time. We can absolutely make logical decisions.

But we absolutely aren't logical creatures, CB. We waste entirely too much time on inanity for that.

 

[Cuzz09]

What about just a map of Australia with blue background (ocean/island/girt by sea etc) and inside Australia the aboriginal colours (black/,red/yellow sun)

That'd look ok

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

can someone who is good at making pick make this. I can not

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[sataris]

Whilst not about the national flag, there would be other flags that need changing too. From:

 

[sataris]

I mean if you want examples, there's plenty on the internet for re-designs of various kinds. especially if you search the vexillology subreddit for Australia

I think blue should remain the primary colour though...

 

[sataris]

Apologies for the triple post; but there's also this suggested change.

The Triple Union Flag | A new flag for a new Australia

Official website of the Triple Union Flag — an new Australian flag to represent who we are, where we come from and what we stand for.

www.tripleunionflag.com

 

[Carringbush2010]

"Because you think something is absurd means you're not allowed to enjoy it."

No. I stated that your pride in it is absolutely absurd. There's no 'therefore' at play here.

Up yours.

Just because I know something is an absurd thing to do does not entail that I don't ascribe meaning to it.

Yes. That's the whole point.

To say that we are not logical does not mean we are illogical all the time. We can absolutely make logical decisions.

But we absolutely aren't logical creatures, CB. We waste entirely too much time on inanity for that.

Well you don't mince words. So having pride in our nation doing well is absurd in your book and obviously Freddies.

OK. I'll leave it there.

 

[kickazz]

Apologies for the triple post; but there's also this suggested change.

The Triple Union Flag | A new flag for a new Australia

Official website of the Triple Union Flag — an new Australian flag to represent who we are, where we come from and what we stand for.

www.tripleunionflag.com

I like the look of that one. (I'm also a fan of the Southern Horizon design)

Much of the rationale send good. A bit patchy in parts, like "allowing for the possibility of the NT becoming a state" (which it shouldn't)

 

[kickazz]

The other thing I like about it is that it has parts that represent specific cultures (indigenous / colonists / the rest of us) without just copy pasting another people's flag onto ours

I know I'm on the record as saying I take issue with specific people's being represented and not others, but this symbolism does it better; because it's about the heritage of the country, whereas having the aboriginal flag or union jack, well, that is the flag of and for a current people, isn't it? I think it's a subtle but profound difference.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Bit of cognitive dissonance on this one (which is fine). We're all sportsball fans and I'm sure we all use the royal 'we' when talking about the clubs we follow.

It doesn't make any sense of course, I'm not involved in any of the success or failure of the swans.

Although my lucky underwear does deserve some of the credit.

But it's only the stubborn understains that are holding them things together!!

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

The same morons that have pride when their nation wins gold at the Olympics? The same morons that have pride when scientists / doctors from their nations make life saving discoveries?

If not are you suggesting that the above is OK but having pride in a flag makes one a moron?

That would be absurd wouldn't it.

Well for my part I am immensely proud of this incredible country but I genuinely couldn't give a schitte when we win a gold medal at the Olympics. It's not either/or.

 

[Father Jack]

Well for my part I am immensely proud of this incredible country but I genuinely couldn't give a schitte when we win a gold medal at the Olympics. It's not either/or.

Apparently Finland decided years ago to stop spending lots of money on the olympics and now they barely win anything but I hear their education system is top notch.