NTRabbit
Brownlow Medallist
So what was it about South Ossetia and Abkhazia that they were afraid of losing? You know, ignoring the fact they didn't own them in order to be able to lose them before invading and annexing.
Ukraine on verge of civil war?
- Thread starter medusala
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So what was it about South Ossetia and Abkhazia that they were afraid of losing? You know, ignoring the fact they didn't own them in order to be able to lose them before invading and annexing.
South Ossetia and Abkhazia are disputed land with Georgia.
Since Georgia has land disputes it does not meet the requirements to be allowed to join NATO.
Plus even the EU found that the Georgians started that war.
NTRabbit
Brownlow Medallist
They were disputed between Georgia and separatists, Russia was ostensibly a neutral 3rd party meant to enforce a cease fire.
Whether or not Georgia started it, Russia has seized the two territories and everyone in them is now a Russian citizen, which begs the question, why did they do it if not for empire building? There's nothing like Sevastopol there.
Two territories that are in exactly the same status as they have been since collapse of the USSR.
And I already addressed why Russia supports them. No nation with existing territorial disputes is allowed to join NATO. Hence South Ossetia and Abkhazia being independent of Georgia prevents Georgia joining NATO.
Just as (in addition to Sevastopol) Crimea prevents Ukraine from joining NATO
NTRabbit
Brownlow Medallist
You haven't actually said anything to dispute my argument, because joining NATO has no relevance at all to my posts.
The Russian aim is to prevent Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO.
That's part of their goal.
Absolutely nothing to do with power hungry empire building or what not.
How do you figure that? Sevastapol is an important place yes , but why do "they" think they need it so desperately.
My whole point in my argument has been countries thinking they need to be frightened of the USA or NATO.
If I was a country that formed NATO I'd be thinking the other way after whats gone on in Eastern Europe and Russia since the 30's and before.Along with the cold war.
NATO I'd suggest is a force of defence and protection against what it has seen in the past as Soviet aggression , the Russians bolted into Germany in 1945 and from that moment on they put up their Iron Curtain and eventually physically built a wall , yes?
The wall came down the Soviet fell apart , no one invaded Russia , Ukraine wants to do business with the west, the pro Russians in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine want to go back to Russia, WHY? there was no problem .
Wouldn't Russia be better off trading goods instead of bullets. I think you, have drastically misunderstood Putin. He either jumps at shadows, or he is an adventurist. His excuse is "ooh they're coming to get us".
You and I, I'd guess, are a product of western society I have no wish to fight with Russia , I'd rather be allies and friends and traders which I think the bulk of the world wants too. You see in 2014 there should be no stupid conflicts like this, when there are other ways. Russia or Putin especially need to understand that after the death of the Soviet union they have no right to meddle in other nations. I include everyone in that, including the USA who have painted themselves into a corner in the last 20 years as well. And look what adventurism did to Russia when they invaded Afghanistan in the eighties.
Do you think Putin needs a really full on war. If he thinks he can win it he really is a fool, no one wins.
I think the Russain people may be a little bit better than that, and should be removing this troublesome fellow.
So have another look at Putin and ask yourself why he is frightened? I don't think so.
Why?? What goal? See?
So you think he should be absolutely passive ? Thats only gonna see the next prospective "God" come up behind him, slit his throat and the cycle begins again. Look what happening in Libya, that was a genuinely rich country under Khadafi, easily the richest in Africa, and once he was gone - total chaos !
I don't see Russia starting a war (against NATO) here and I don't see why the Russian population will remove him for steps they approve oif.
There is one economic reason for the Donbas to prefer Russia- their entire economy is based upon selling stuff to Russia. Join all the EU agreements and they're ****ed economically.
NTRabbit
Brownlow Medallist
And in further news of Russia totally not empire building, stepping away from the massive buildup on the Ukranian border as the Russian irregulars in Ukraine are slowly being routed, the Russians are building a massive fence along the edge of South Ossetia, effectively making a new defacto border.
Nope, not empire building at all.
Nope, not empire building at all.
NTRabbit
Brownlow Medallist
The Ukrainian Army fired three SS-21 missiles at the strategically elevated, heavy fortifications around a particular place called Saur Mogila. The Russians also dumped a truckload of Grads into the area as the insurgents counterattacked.
They are currently using a strategy that is a few thousand years old - surround the enemy entirely but for a narrow corridor of escape, then pound their perimeter until they give up and use the corridor to flee. It's worked for everyone since Sun Tzu.
They are currently using a strategy that is a few thousand years old - surround the enemy entirely but for a narrow corridor of escape, then pound their perimeter until they give up and use the corridor to flee. It's worked for everyone since Sun Tzu.
NTRabbit
Brownlow Medallist
The Germans are utterly terrified of confrontation. Pathological fear.
There's zero incentive for Ukraine to agree to this deal, given that there's zero chance Russia will stick to the agreement for 5 years, let alone permanently.
There's zero incentive for Ukraine to agree to this deal, given that there's zero chance Russia will stick to the agreement for 5 years, let alone permanently.
If Ukraine wants a unified country and wants gas during the winter they will.
NTRabbit
Brownlow Medallist
Accepting that deal would definitively mean they are accepting a not unified country, so I don't follow how you leaped to that conclusion.
As for the gas, it'll be a tough first winter but with the help of Poland it can be mitigated while new LNG terminals are built or expanded to cover the rest of Europe.
Accepting that deal allows them to keep Eastern Ukraine plus the minor concessions they have to give to the Eastern Ukrainians (who don't trust Kiev).
They'll never get Crimea back and I'm not sure why they'd want a Russian majority region that has no value beyond renting Sevastapol to the Russian fleet.
And they'd be completely ****ed with out gas or without Russia as an export market.
NTRabbit
Brownlow Medallist
"Keep eastern Ukraine"?! You make it sound like it's some territory they stole, rather than part of their own country which they are currently successfully preventing Moscow from annexing in their latest round of expanding the borders of the Empire.
They don't need the terrified German plan to 'keep' eastern Ukraine, they need further international pressure to stop the Russians from invading with their real army once their irregulars have finally been defeated.
They don't need the terrified German plan to 'keep' eastern Ukraine, they need further international pressure to stop the Russians from invading with their real army once their irregulars have finally been defeated.
Keep Eastern Ukraine. As in rebuild the country and prevent further unrest by recognising the issues the population has with the government.
438 Ukrainian army members surrendered yesterday, after apparently not being paid or fed for months...are the wheels falling off? My prediction is either, some strange event of the 9/11 mh17 game changer variety, that calls for the very dangerous direct NATO intervention, or....things getting much worse for the Ukrainian government, quicker than anyone anticipated. Apparently there have already been over 1300 dead from the Ukrainian army in the conflict.
NTRabbit
Brownlow Medallist
438 Ukranian servicemen of whom 164 were borderguards, and they were forced into retreating into Russia to avoid destruction. They immediately destroyed their weapons and documents, presumably good discipline to prevent it being called an 'invasion' and to avoid handing over intelligence, and that all comes from the FSB itself (Russian Secret Service). As for no money or food, it's not hugely surprising - borderguards, small units and up to entire Brigades have been penned between the well supplied Russian irregular forces in Ukraine, and the Russian border, with Russian artillery firing at them from over the border for months now. An An-24 transport plane was shot down trying to reach them with a supply drop just days before MH17, and it's presumed that the 777 was shot down by the insurgents because they thought it was another one.
Impossible position, that they did well to hold onto for so long. Some of those units have been relieved, particularly near Donetsk, but others are still besieged.
Russian media says they sought asylum, the Ukrainian government says they are in contact with the troops via diplomatic channels and no request or attempt for asylum has been made. The ITAR-TASS report reads like syrupy propaganda, troops tired of a senseless war and finally getting a warm bed and a hot meal from their friendly Russian brothers.
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So does your little summary. Its either hiding poor leadership, or the truth.
Its strange to see people say how the hope ww1 never happens again, as the powers that be are pushing for a war that could be far worse than ww1. The Ukrainian army will have to kill thousands more civillians and destroy its own richest area to win this war, even then it would be a Pyrrhic victory.
NTRabbit
Brownlow Medallist
Fact of every war ever, armies can be cut off and become difficult to resupply. The soldiers were under heavy bombardment, ran out of ammunition and found their position untenable - half of them covered the other half escaping, but then themselves had to escape into Russia, destroying their equipment along the way.
As it happens, there was an OSCE contingent at the particular border crossing where they went through - the troops sought OSCE help in achieving a safe border crossing, the initial 12 pathfinders crossed and were returned to Ukraine by Russian forces further along the border, and the 438 soldiers and borderguards are about to be returned as well. For now at least Russia seems to know better than to try and detain them.
http://www.osce.org/om/122341
- Banned
- #725
Anybody here speak Ukrainian?
If those subtitles are legitimate, it would be incredible.
If those subtitles are legitimate, it would be incredible.
