Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

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#gosaintas said:
Sorry to pop in but losing a few crap players is no reason to sack your coach. Your list looks really exciting and is only going to get better with a few more kids this year. Never let the players run the club. My club has had this system for 100 years - our players have always run our club.
Click to expand...

No good post.....

I would like to know who the "senior" players are who are not happy and why they are not happy. The media are week as p15s, they know who is saying what but they don't name names.....just a boys club. The media love to jump at shadows. Pitty they can't back any of it up with some hard facts and name names!

Does anyone think that maybe, just maybe, that Macca is demanding certain things from players, some of the older guys and those guys who have been around a while and not made the grade, being more set in their ways might resist or resent it. While the younger guys are sponges and take it all on board.

Just who they are baffles me. Surely it's not Morris, Boyd, Murphy or Griff.....not too many left Coons? Minson? Who? I suspect the players complaining the most might be leaving the club to honest.

And while I'm at it.......

Just because Tutt, Jones and (Pearce?) want out how does that send so many alarm bells? They are not getting opportunities, have been around a while. Sure they all show promise at times....but really their leaving can't be that big a deal? Can it? Most of the same people on here who are using these guys leaving as another reason to sack the coach were ones bagging the same players all year.....amazing!

It's convenient but not logical that them leaving is validation for people's preconceived thoughts on the coach. I think those that want the coach out will grab at anything, and it's really silly and illogical. Come on guys think it through a little.
 
#gosaintas said:
Sorry to pop in but losing a few crap players is no reason to sack your coach. Your list looks really exciting and is only going to get better with a few more kids this year. Never let the players run the club. My club has had this system for 100 years - our players have always run our club.
Click to expand...

This.
Great post, #gosaintas. Welcome to the Dogs' board.

Been talking with a few Dogs supporting mates this morning about this exact issue, and the point was raised the we and the Saints have been pretty similar in this respect.

Time for both clubs to sort this out!
 
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Remember the near revolt at Hawthorn when they traded Croad? They got over it, he returned and played in the 08 premiership team

In return for Croad with the pick they got Hodge and picked up Mitchell with pick 36
 

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Mutt said:
This is a bit of a watershed moment for the club. I'm confident that the Board and Management know what is really going on in the playing group and will deal with it in the best interests of the club. This week we are seeing a bit of evidence of exactly that.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more, Mutt.

As long as I can remember (and that's quite a while) this club has been wracked with in-fighting, player discontent and management issues, with a few stable periods now and again. I want a strong, settled club that is intent on becoming a force in the competition - not a divided mob that gives the media a free kick on a regular basis.

Right now, I'm feeling very flat. Again.

Let's hope that this is indeed a significant turning point in the club's history.
 
There seems to be a lot of differing opinions on where we should be as a club after 3 years of Macca.

From my perspective it appears that its down to whether or not you believe in the teaching & development ethos.
This is the only conclusion I can draw from the baffling team selections through the year.

Example of this was the elevation of Austin from the rookie list & played regularly in the seniors ahead of Talia & Roberts who are seen to be the long term key defensive backs. The only justification that I could make was that it could be a case of getting Talia & Roberts used to playing together in the backline in a lower standard competition with a view to them being included in the starting 22 for the 2015 season.

Im a little torn with Macca, I understand the rebuilding of the club & culture etc, but I cant understand why the coaching staff appear to be terrible match day coaches & poor skill coaches.
  • Didnt appear to be quick to makes changes or to react to stop an opposition run on.
  • The continual bombing of the ball aimlessly into the forward 50 without any real target to clunk a mark. I could never understand why we would not lower our eyes to pass to someone. I dont understand why the forward coach wouldnt say "look for someone to pass to, & you forwards move into space"
  • Handballing to players standing still 2-3 meters away, which then increases pressure & then the opposition pressure creates a turnover.
  • A lot of our players, fumble & double grab at the ball, which also increases tackling pressure from the opposition
  • No apparent system to bring the ball back into play after a behind scored. After 3 years I expect to see some improvement. I reckon I could count on one hand the amount of times that a long kick from the defensive goal square was actually marked in a pack by one of our players.
I also dont believe that it should take 5+ years to see results.

I felt that there were a number of games this year we could have won if we had more composure & looked for targets inside the F50.

Maybe the backlash from some of the playing group may be a reaction to the game day coaching & selection.
  • Dont have an issue with Tutt going, have never been a big fan. Looks like he drops a load in his pants whenever he gets the ball.
  • Jones is a 2nd or 3rd banana in the fwd line, but we tried to make him the focal point for the AFL team. Given the way he played in the VFL GF with Redpath & Campbell round him he performed. I know he under performed in the AFL side at times, but i have this fear that he will go to Carlton, become an important part of the team & we will look foolish for letting him go. I would like to have seen him & crameri with a decent power forward as a focal point, but thats not likely to happen now.
  • Higgins is a good user of the ball, but I dont see a place for him. He is terrible one on one in defence, put no defensive pressure on when he plays as a forward & hasnt played in the guts for a long time.
If the club is going to move on macca, it needs to happen NOW, to enable us to find a replacement a.s.a.p.
Whether or not we can afford it doesnt appear to be a concern for those that want him gone.
One thing is sure, if he is given the flick the next coach will be happy with the talent they have to work with. (other than needing a KPP or 2)
Not unhappy with macca, but some things need to improve or the pressure will do nothing but increase.
 
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I'm not Macca's biggest fan(at least of him being a coach) but I'm actually really happy with the list changes. On the assumption that we can get something in return this trade period. We haven't lost anybody of note. Maybe it's Macca's fault that they played Higgins as a defender and recruited Crameri instead and kept Gia around for an extra season and maybe it's Macca's fault that Jones never got that foil in 3 draft/trade periods that he needed but at the end of the day these players didn't step up.

At least we're making moves now. Our list needed another deep cut and the players that have left were inconsistent.

Macca struggles to coach some days but where are the media then?! A couple of fringe players 'walk out' and s**t hits the fan. They weren't needed and their agents are saying they walked out instead of telling the truth - that they weren't offered good enough contracts due to them being fringe players.
 
Butane said:
A couple of fringe players 'walk out' and s**t hits the fan. They weren't needed and their agents are saying they walked out instead of telling the truth - that they weren't offered good enough contracts due to them being fringe players.
Click to expand...

Which works well for the Dogs because it means that these players that are walking out are considered to have some sort of currency and they can get something in return.
 
Aldo said:
Bloke on trade radio reckons Talia will announce he is leaving in 24hours, 80% of the players don't get along with the coach, and is saying that "Brendan McCarthy" must be sacked. Love some of these callers.
Click to expand...
Called him Peter Rhode mark II isn't that someone signature on here?
 
Aldo said:
Bloke on trade radio reckons Talia will announce he is leaving in 24hours, 80% of the players don't get along with the coach, and is saying that "Brendan McCarthy" must be sacked. Love some of these callers.
Click to expand...

No doubt he has the inside word.....the inside word from the bar at the pub.
 
There will always be some primadonnas at every club who dont like hearing the truth about their own weaknesses or the reality that perhaps they aren't as good as they thought. That's what Macca would have given them. Macca leads a fantastic coaching panel in my opinion and the players who can take the criticisms and use it to better themselves will be all the better for it. You watch blokes like Jack Macrae and Jake Stringer continue to develop under McCartney becuase he is not scared to tell them of their shortcomings and where they need to improve.
 
Aldo said:
Bloke on trade radio reckons Talia will announce he is leaving in 24hours, 80% of the players don't get along with the coach, and is saying that "Brendan McCarthy" must be sacked. Love some of these callers.
Click to expand...

My bro-in-law is notorious for ringing up SEN with "inside words" just for the laughs!
 

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Personally, I think all this Talia stuff is bullsh1t.

However, I have no specific info, it's just a vibe.

But, in case my vibe turns out to be incorrect, and there is any truth to any of these "rumours" about Minson to Geelong, or Talia walking out, or the coach being sacked tomorrow, Peter Gordon is going to have a hell of a lot of work to do convincing supporters that we are not heading down the road to being a basket case, as we have been so many times in my association with the club.

Regardless of where you stand on the coach, if any (or all) of those three "rumours" eventuate, it will be a bad result, and will ensure even more short-term pain, let alone long-term implications.
 
ivan rassmussen said:
Personally, I think all this Talia stuff is bullsh1t.

However, I have no specific info, it's just a vibe.
Click to expand...

I don't have inside information on Talia walking out but I tend to agree that it's probably bullshit but McCartney isn't a big fan of Talia's.

How much of that is him wanting Talia to improve more and he's just being a firm coach or how much of that is he wants Talia out I don't know.
 
Butane said:
I don't have inside information on Talia walking out but I tend to agree that it's probably bullshit but McCartney isn't a big fan of Talia's.

How much of that is him wanting Talia to improve more and he's just being a firm coach or how much of that is he wants Talia out I don't know.
Click to expand...

Said it a little while back , but if history tells you anything , once the playing group revolt , the coach is dead in the water. Hope I'm wrong but things don't sound great.
 
Talia wants out! Griff has given the board an ultimatum! Alrighty then! In fantasy land where this bollocks is real, what about:

Pick 5, Talia and griffen for cameron. Who says no?

(Note - clearly hypothetical discussion. Just a bit of fun. Don't shower me with "trading griff! You must die!" comments. Just interested in thoughts on fairness of a deal like that. Disclaimer over).
 
Truly, guys, this is just becoming absurd - if it wasn't already. The flat-earther, instant gratification mob may well get their wish if the uninformed, knee-jerk hysteria of the past few days continues. How many of the 'sack Macca' brigade have been calling for Jones, Tutt, Pearce and even Higgins to be playing every week this year, or in years gone by? In a different thread they would all be branded list-cloggers. The fact is that we will be better off without them. All four have been subject to diatribe in recent times. The simple fact is that they are not feeling the love because it ain't there, either inside the club or in the fan base. To point to ruthless list management as a reason to sack the coach is naive at best.

Should the unthinkable happen, and the doomsayers actually get to destabilise the club by having the coach sacked and/or, as one nuffer on SEN suggested this morning, the board sacked, where would we find ourselves and what would the solution be? One of two places - 1. at the start of a rebuild; in which case we would just replace Macca's name in this thread with the name of whoever comes in, or 2. we would start looking around for the modern-day equivalents of Aker and BBH to see if we can re-live the glory days of losing prelim mediocrity.

There is an old saying, 'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen'. The kitchen at The Kennel is cooking up a recipe for sustained success, and it is already very hot. Some of the senior boys got a reality check in their reviews, and no doubt it hurt, but they've been put on notice about being prepared to play their roles and stand the heat of not relying on reputations. Nobody is exempt. Some of the younger ones, too, are hopefully beginning to understand that they have to work hard, and the Bulldog way, if they want to play regularly; talent is not the only prerequisite.

What we are seeing is the final expunging of the rot left over from previous eras stretching back over generations of Footscray/WB regimes.

Here is a little tale that I have kept to myself until now. It comes from the most unimpeachable WB source I can think of; sometimes you are lucky enough to get a glimpse behind the curtain, and this one came through a most unexpected chain of events when I found myself in close contact with someone on the inside for an extended period a couple of years back. (And no, I am not going to reveal who it is.) When I first heard this story I was angry, and I still am, because it illustrates everything that was wrong with our club for a long time. If you get why it is so enraging, there might be hope for you in understanding why we have to stay the course we have chosen, at least to the end of 2015.

When Brendan McCartney first came to the club, he got a small group of senior players together in his office to talk footy. They sat around a table with a footy ground marked out and BMac positioned some magnets. Then he asked the players what they would do when the ball was in various positions and states of play - forward, back, 'they have', 'we have', 'in dispute' - where would they run, who would they man up, would they zone, go man-on-man, switch, play the corridor, go for the safety of the boundary line etc. And what would they expect their team mates to do - compress the ground, spread, roll off their men, man up, flood forward etc. Nobody knew. I will say that again, just in case you didn't process it. Nobody knew. No idea. Nothing... there was no plan. At all. At any time. These were the senior players, the ones who had been part of the club's recent 'successful' era, and they had no idea what to do in any given situation except hunt the ball and use their talent to try to win the game any way they could. It turned out that there were game day tactics, but no standing orders, no set plays for given situations. Players were just expected to use their skills to take the game on and get the ball to their team mates as best they could so that someone could kick a goal. And they just had to do that more often than their opponents to win games. If they didn't, the coach screamed at them.

The point here is that we are coming from a long way back. A really long way back. Further than most people realise. Our coach has not had to just teach our young players to play his way, he has had to teach the older players to play A way, because until he came along they just played to their strengths and got by on their talents. No prizes for guessing why Shaun Higgins spent so long in the backline or Jarrad Grant, Liam Jones and Jason Tutt in the Magoos.

The tinfoil hat wearers out there think all our problems will be solved if we get rid of our coach. [Some of the most stridently negative commentators here might have played games at various levels and even coached a bit (or a lot), but that doesn't mean they can see the game well or have better insight than anyone else. It just means that they have played and coached - and let's face it, there's a 22nd man on every team and a wooden spoon-winning coach in every comp] My message to them is that they should step away from their keyboards, watch as many preliminary finals and grand finals as they can and actually get an understanding of how really good footy looks. The teams that win those games are the ones who play the game the right way. They are brutal, ruthless and they play to a plan. Watch them closely; that is how our young players are being taught to play. Go back through history and you will find plenty of sides who looked the goods up until those two games - prelims and grannys - and were bundled out of the kitchen because they couldn't stand the heat. Teams who can stand the heat, who can play the kind of football that wins those games take a long time to build. We are at the bottom of the J curve now. We are ridding ourselves of the last of the past and we are ready to grind our way into contention.

I saw a wonderful young Bulldogs side win a Grand Final a couple of weeks ago. Don't be taken in by the bullshit in the press, Box Hill didn't lose it, we won it. We played the game the way it should be played. Brutally. Ruthlessly. From the inside. But also with flair. We were 18 points down with minutes to go and we kicked the last six goals of the game to WIN it. Based on a game plan tailored to win those games. With a group of young Bulldogs taught and trained to win those hard, brutal, ruthless games. Under pressure and scrutiny, with everything on the line, our young Bulldogs stuck to the plan and WON the game. That young side was coached by a bloke who has been whacked all season long by some of the notable naysayers of this thread. He spent all year doing the same thing that he did on Grand Final day, calmly guiding his young charges to play the game a certain way. The same way he had been instructed to guide them by the senior coach. The way that history shows us premiership winning teams have to play.

If you truly love your club, if you truly want success, don't buy into the shortsighted, uninformed, reactionary tripe bandied about by the nuffers who want to condemn us to the Groundhog Day of yesteryear. And it will. If the hysteria continues, it will put us back a long way. Instead, take a broader view, one that sees far into the future to a vital club enjoying sustained success on the back of the calm, reasoned, yet ruthless decision making of the past few years.

TL/DR
Good riddance to list cloggers
Finally, a plan
The future is bright
Beware of Groundhog Day
 
fronkalicious said:
Talia wants out! Griff has given the board an ultimatum! Alrighty then! In fantasy land where this bollocks is real, what about:

Pick 5, Talia and griffen for cameron. Who says no?

(Note - clearly hypothetical discussion. Just a bit of fun. Don't shower me with "trading griff! You must die!" comments. Just interested in thoughts on fairness of a deal like that. Disclaimer over).
Click to expand...

Trading Griff! You must die!

You have no idea, this will tear the fabric out of our club, the sky is falling, we're faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrked.

(Oh sorry, just saw the last bit of your post. :D)
 
KDF67 said:
Truly, guys, this is just becoming absurd - if it wasn't already. The flat-earther, instant gratification mob may well get their wish if the uninformed, knee-jerk hysteria of the past few days continues. How many of the 'sack Macca' brigade have been calling for Jones, Tutt, Pearce and even Higgins to be playing every week this year, or in years gone by? In a different thread they would all be branded list-cloggers. The fact is that we will be better off without them. All four have been subject to diatribe in recent times. The simple fact is that they are not feeling the love because it ain't there, either inside the club or in the fan base. To point to ruthless list management as a reason to sack the coach is naive at best.

Should the unthinkable happen, and the doomsayers actually get to destabilise the club by having the coach sacked and/or, as one nuffer on SEN suggested this morning, the board sacked, where would we find ourselves and what would the solution be? One of two places - 1. at the start of a rebuild; in which case we would just replace Macca's name in this thread with the name of whoever comes in, or 2. we would start looking around for the modern-day equivalents of Aker and BBH to see if we can re-live the glory days of losing prelim mediocrity.

There is an old saying, 'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen'. The kitchen at The Kennel is cooking up a recipe for sustained success, and it is already very hot. Some of the senior boys got a reality check in their reviews, and no doubt it hurt, but they've been put on notice about being prepared to play their roles and stand the heat of not relying on reputations. Nobody is exempt. Some of the younger ones, too, are hopefully beginning to understand that they have to work hard, and the Bulldog way, if they want to play regularly; talent is not the only prerequisite.

What we are seeing is the final expunging of the rot left over from previous eras stretching back over generations of Footscray/WB regimes.

Here is a little tale that I have kept to myself until now. It comes from the most unimpeachable WB source I can think of; sometimes you are lucky enough to get a glimpse behind the curtain, and this one came through a most unexpected chain of events when I found myself in close contact with someone on the inside for an extended period a couple of years back. (And no, I am not going to reveal who it is.) When I first heard this story I was angry, and I still am, because it illustrates everything that was wrong with our club for a long time. If you get why it is so enraging, there might be hope for you in understanding why we have to stay the course we have chosen, at least to the end of 2015.

When Brendan McCartney first came to the club, he got a small group of senior players together in his office to talk footy. They sat around a table with a footy ground marked out and BMac positioned some magnets. Then he asked the players what they would do when the ball was in various positions and states of play - forward, back, 'they have', 'we have', 'in dispute' - where would they run, who would they man up, would they zone, go man-on-man, switch, play the corridor, go for the safety of the boundary line etc. And what would they expect their team mates to do - compress the ground, spread, roll off their men, man up, flood forward etc. Nobody knew. I will say that again, just in case you didn't process it. Nobody knew. No idea. Nothing... there was no plan. At all. At any time. These were the senior players, the ones who had been part of the club's recent 'successful' era, and they had no idea what to do in any given situation except hunt the ball and use their talent to try to win the game any way they could. It turned out that there were game day tactics, but no standing orders, no set plays for given situations. Players were just expected to use their skills to take the game on and get the ball to their team mates as best they could so that someone could kick a goal. And they just had to do that more often than their opponents to win games. If they didn't, the coach screamed at them.

The point here is that we are coming from a long way back. A really long way back. Further than most people realise. Our coach has not had to just teach our young players to play his way, he has had to teach the older players to play A way, because until he came along they just played to their strengths and got by on their talents. No prizes for guessing why Shaun Higgins spent so long in the backline or Jarrad Grant, Liam Jones and Jason Tutt in the Magoos.

The tinfoil hat wearers out there think all our problems will be solved if we get rid of our coach. [Some of the most stridently negative commentators here might have played games at various levels and even coached a bit (or a lot), but that doesn't mean they can see the game well or have better insight than anyone else. It just means that they have played and coached - and let's face it, there's a 22nd man on every team and a wooden spoon-winning coach in every comp] My message to them is that they should step away from their keyboards, watch as many preliminary finals and grand finals as they can and actually get an understanding of how really good footy looks. The teams that win those games are the ones who play the game the right way. They are brutal, ruthless and they play to a plan. Watch them closely; that is how our young players are being taught to play. Go back through history and you will find plenty of sides who looked the goods up until those two games - prelims and grannys - and were bundled out of the kitchen because they couldn't stand the heat. Teams who can stand the heat, who can play the kind of football that wins those games take a long time to build. We are at the bottom of the J curve now. We are ridding ourselves of the last of the past and we are ready to grind our way into contention.

I saw a wonderful young Bulldogs side win a Grand Final a couple of weeks ago. Don't be taken in by the bullshit in the press, Box Hill didn't lose it, we won it. We played the game the way it should be played. Brutally. Ruthlessly. From the inside. But also with flair. We were 18 points down with minutes to go and we kicked the last six goals of the game to WIN it. Based on a game plan tailored to win those games. With a group of young Bulldogs taught and trained to win those hard, brutal, ruthless games. Under pressure and scrutiny, with everything on the line, our young Bulldogs stuck to the plan and WON the game. That young side was coached by a bloke who has been whacked all season long by some of the notable naysayers of this thread. He spent all year doing the same thing that he did on Grand Final day, calmly guiding his young charges to play the game a certain way. The same way he had been instructed to guide them by the senior coach. The way that history shows us premiership winning teams have to play.

If you truly love your club, if you truly want success, don't buy into the shortsighted, uninformed, reactionary tripe bandied about by the nuffers who want to condemn us to the Groundhog Day of yesteryear. And it will. If the hysteria continues, it will put us back a long way. Instead, take a broader view, one that sees far into the future to a vital club enjoying sustained success on the back of the calm, reasoned, yet ruthless decision making of the past few years.

TL/DR
Good riddance to list cloggers
Finally, a plan
The future is bright
Beware of Groundhog Day
Click to expand...
Deserves quoting for sheer poetry.
 
With McKenna gone, Sando gone, Hird gone?, is the last domino going to be Macca? Sometimes clubs get panicked into a knee jerk reaction so as to position for best replacement earlier than other clubs.
With McKenna gone I am more fearful for Macca. Don't want him to go, but the jungle drums are beating and loudly.
Friday I've heard.
 
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