Changing Direction

[raptalia]

In the John Butcher thread I made some comments about our Coaching Staff not doing enough lateral thing. This was in response to comments about Butcher being given a chance in defence. This got me thinking and asking the question...

When was the last time Port changed a player's direction and converted a run of the mill forward into a top line backman or vice versa ?

When I think back to the glory days of the PAFC in the SANFL I can think of numerous times when Foster then Jack converted a player from the position he had played previously to have him star in another role.

I know this is ancient history but a few examples...

John Abley- recruited as a ruckman but converted to a triple All Australian fullback.
Dennis Errey- average wingman converted to a State half back.
Tim Evans- recruited as a CHB but converted to a Farmer Medallist.
George Fiacchi - B grade rover converted to a Premiership back pocket.
Stephen Williams- converted from a too slow back pocket to a 250 game centreman.

About the only Power player I can think of who has had some degree of change in direction is Matt Lobbe who was originally recruited as a KPP.

It just seems to me we get players on our AFL list, they are pigeon holed into a position, that is where they play at SANFL level and they are never tried anywhere else. If they do not make it that is it. I can think of a couple of players in the current Power line up who really ought to be looked at in a different role. I am not saying throw the names in the air and see where they land but I am saying think about what we need and the players on our current list who might possibly deliver if given the chance. We seem to lack flexibilty among our talls in particular.

I can remember standing on the mounds at Alberton and the crowd around me calling for Jack to 'make a move'. In those days we could make moves and often they would be match winners. I watch games and keep willing Ken to make such a magic move to lift the side and but that move never seems to come. With the possible exception of Justin Westhoff I don't see any such flexibility in the Power side. It may be there but we are never going to know if we don't make a few experimental moves from time to time. Our AFL season is shot so why not experiment a little?

 

[ab56452001]

You have a point , problem is a 5ft 10inch player will always remain that , mind you could be a back pocket , rover or flanker.

 

[Andre]

When was the last time Port changed a player's direction and converted a run of the mill forward into a top line backman or vice versa ?

About the only Power player I can think of who has had some degree of change in direction is Matt Lobbe who was originally recruited as a KPP.

Chad Cornes doesn't like this post.

Outside of that it's sort of true though. It's a football nature versus nurture argument to a degree. Are players better at certain positions because they played there a lot as juniors (nurture) or do the slightly different mindsets required for different positions suit different players (nature)?

Like the general nature vs. nurture argument I think it's a bit of both. Yes some players can or could make the switch, but for others the mindset doesn't line up as well and there's too much 'de-programming' of the old position required.

 

[raptalia]

Chad Cornes doesn't like this post.

Outside of that it's sort of true though. It's a football nature versus nurture argument to a degree. Are players better at certain positions because they played there a lot as juniors (nurture) or do the slightly different mindsets required for different positions suit different players (nature)?

Like the general nature vs. nurture argument I think it's a bit of both. Yes some players can or could make the switch, but for others the mindset doesn't line up as well and there's too much 'de-programming' of the old position required.

Yes, Chad is one player we converted to play as a CHB and it worked for a season in 2004. Darren Mead also made an impact with the occasional run in ruck. I cannot remember who it was against but I remember Meady going into the ruck one night and turning a game at Football Park. Then there was Stephen Paxman who had played as a full back at Fitzroy and we used him at CHF in our early years. The versatility of a Cornes, Mead or Paxman would be useful now. I guess it goes back to the fact that under Jack and in Choco's early years we were prepared to throw players around a bit more. I think our present Coaches pigeon hole players a lot more.

As I posted I sit in front of the TV or at the game and cry out for that inspirational move which will lift the side but alas it does not happen.

 

[Andre]

Yes, Chad is one player we converted to play as a CHB and it worked for a season in 2004. Darren Mead also made an impact with the occasional run in ruck. I cannot remember who it was against but I remember Meady going into the ruck one night and turning a game at Football Park. Then there was Stephen Paxman who had played as a full back at Fitzroy and we used him at CHF in our early years. The versatility of a Cornes, Mead or Paxman would be useful now. I guess it goes back to the fact that under Jack and in Choco's early years we were prepared to throw players around a bit more. I think our present Coaches pigeon hole players a lot more.

As I posted I sit in front of the TV or at the game and cry out for that inspirational move which will lift the side but alas it does not happen.

There's two levels of a switch. Neither of which we have really done since Chad Cornes. During games, Ken is stubborn, we don't generally switch players, gameplan or change when the sub comes on outside of an injury happening.

Then there's the permanent shift like Chad. If the likes of Butcher for example were stamped at the end of last year as a forward, then he should have been training as a back man over the preseason, not shifted mid way through the season without a decent amount of training in the position.

 

[Pedro59]

In the John Butcher thread I made some comments about our Coaching Staff not doing enough lateral thing. This was in response to comments about Butcher being given a chance in defence. This got me thinking and asking the question...

When was the last time Port changed a player's direction and converted a run of the mill forward into a top line backman or vice versa ?

When I think back to the glory days of the PAFC in the SANFL I can think of numerous times when Foster then Jack converted a player from the position he had played previously to have him star in another role.

I know this is ancient history but a few examples...

John Abley- recruited as a ruckman but converted to a triple All Australian fullback.
Dennis Errey- average wingman converted to a State half back.
Tim Evans- recruited as a CHB but converted to a Farmer Medallist.
George Fiacchi - B grade rover converted to a Premiership back pocket.
Stephen Williams- converted from a too slow back pocket to a 250 game centreman.

About the only Power player I can think of who has had some degree of change in direction is Matt Lobbe who was originally recruited as a KPP.

It just seems to me we get players on our AFL list, they are pigeon holed into a position, that is where they play at SANFL level and they are never tried anywhere else. If they do not make it that is it. I can think of a couple of players in the current Power line up who really ought to be looked at in a different role. I am not saying throw the names in the air and see where they land but I am saying think about what we need and the players on our current list who might possibly deliver if given the chance. We seem to lack flexibilty among our talls in particular.

I can remember standing on the mounds at Alberton and the crowd around me calling for Jack to 'make a move'. In those days we could make moves and often they would be match winners. I watch games and keep willing Ken to make such a magic move to lift the side and but that move never seems to come. With the possible exception of Justin Westhoff I don't see any such flexibility in the Power side. It may be there but we are never going to know if we don't make a few experimental moves from time to time. Our AFL season is shot so why not experiment a little?

Weren't we spewing on Choco for doing this too much
Ie Peter Burgoyne from midfield to back flanker
Salts as a fullback etc
Lonie from an in and under midfielder to a wing ( sorry this part is just joking)

 

[Trewth]

We took a promising young forward in Nick Salter and turned him into a failed defender, does that count?

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Add Max James, Ivan Eckermann, Trevor Sorrell, Roger Delaney, Greg Phillips, David Hynes and Scott Hodges to the list of players John Cahill converted successfully from one position to another. Max James did the double switch from full forward to full back to on baller. Super athlete.

Even Russell Ebert when he first came to Port under Fos played full forward and topped the Magpies goal kicking in 1968.

 

[Coobk001]

To be fair, most switching occurs when there is a need. We don't really have a need down back and I dare say none of our key backs scream out as potential forwards.

Butcher is a guy that has had his papers stamped for one reason, he can't kick. That performance in round 1 where he shanked a couple crucial balls pretty much sealed his fate. It therefore doesn't matter where he plays, his kicking doesn't fit in with the game style we are trying and as such there's little doubt he'll be delisted. They may be using him there now, but that is only because we have decided we'd rather develop Dougal, Frampton and Harvey up forward.


I think with our list right now we have Trengove and Hombsch who have the necessary marking ability to possibly become key forwards, but they aren't certainties. Frampton right now is showing a hunger for the contest that to me stands out as great traits for a defender and possibly he could develop into a key back/ruck, though I can certainly see why we'd give him a shot up forward first. Westhoff isn't a defender, but he does have that lose man play reading ability that's obviously well known now. And lastly I think Howard and Austin have absolutely been drafted with a view to being versatile players who can switch ends. Whether they can develop to that level though remains a mystery.

 

[raptalia]

Weren't we spewing on Choco for doing this too much
Ie Peter Burgoyne from midfield to back flanker
Salts as a fullback etc
Lonie from an in and under midfielder to a wing ( sorry this part is just joking)

True but there is a balance.

I guess I am confusing two issues here. The issue of changing direction and turning a player into something he is not and the issue of developing flexibility among some members of the team so they can move around if needed. Maybe times have changed and it is no longer possible to have a Stephen Paxman type who could move up forward for a quarter to create impetus and make the opposition counter?

 

[raptalia]

Add Max James, Ivan Eckermann, Trevor Sorrell, Roger Delaney, Greg Phillips, David Hynes and Scott Hodges to the list of players John Cahill converted successfully from one position to another. Max James did the double switch from full forward to full back to on baller. Super athlete.

i think that 1977 Grand Final is the classic example of the switch. Echo started in the back Pocket, got a bad knock, had a jab and went forward to boot three goals. That isn't going to happen every game but it would be nice if we had that sort of flexibility.

 

[GreyPower]

Scott Hodges was an average forward flanker, circa 1987, who became a gun full forward in our 88-90 premiership years.

 

[croweyrocks]

Broadbent was one of our best performing MIDS in 2012 but now plays as a rebounding defender (to much success).

 

[Coobk001]

Broady was never really a good mid though, in fact he was floundering. A lot like OShea, all his better games came when he was behind the ball in defence. Broady is a natural HBF and it was great to see Ken instantly recognize that. Not to mention OShea who is also clearly a defender.

 

[croweyrocks]

Broady was never really a good mid though, in fact he was floundering. A lot like OShea, all his better games came when he was behind the ball in defence. Broady is a natural HBF and it was great to see Ken instantly recognize that. Not to mention OShea who is also clearly a defender.

Dont disagree he isnt a natural behind the ball player. He should play most his football at HBF but we cant be stubborn and keep players to one position and one position only. Look at Hawthorn and see how many can run through the midfield, it would be handy for our team to be a bit more flexible

 

[Macca19]

Its good in theory but hard to do in practice. The issue (not really an issue) we have is that our defence has been rock solid this year. Hombsch has been one of the best performing backmen in the leauge, Carlile has only been beaten once or twice, Trengove has been solid. Its hard to move one of them forward when they've been holding up the fort so to speak.

In any case, we've thrown Trengove all over the shop over the years so he can play anywhere. We tried Hombsch up forward in the last half against Carlton and everyone whinged about it. Its the type of thing where you look a genius if it comes off and a mug if it doesnt. In any case, we've won at least 1 game so far this year by making significant changes to matchups, players positions etc. We won numerous last year including a final by doing similar. As already mentioned, we tried this with Salter and everyone complained.

There is also the fact that there are very few decent dual KPP players in the league. Almost all the ones that can play successfully at either end of the ground were high draft picks - Roughead, Hurley, Henderson, Reid, Bruce, Pav etc. All first round or equivalent picks.

 

[Us against the rest]

In the John Butcher thread I made some comments about our Coaching Staff not doing enough lateral thing. This was in response to comments about Butcher being given a chance in defence. This got me thinking and asking the question...

When was the last time Port changed a player's direction and converted a run of the mill forward into a top line backman or vice versa ?

When I think back to the glory days of the PAFC in the SANFL I can think of numerous times when Foster then Jack converted a player from the position he had played previously to have him star in another role.

I know this is ancient history but a few examples...

John Abley- recruited as a ruckman but converted to a triple All Australian fullback.
Dennis Errey- average wingman converted to a State half back.
Tim Evans- recruited as a CHB but converted to a Farmer Medallist.
George Fiacchi - B grade rover converted to a Premiership back pocket.
Stephen Williams- converted from a too slow back pocket to a 250 game centreman.

About the only Power player I can think of who has had some degree of change in direction is Matt Lobbe who was originally recruited as a KPP.

It just seems to me we get players on our AFL list, they are pigeon holed into a position, that is where they play at SANFL level and they are never tried anywhere else. If they do not make it that is it. I can think of a couple of players in the current Power line up who really ought to be looked at in a different role. I am not saying throw the names in the air and see where they land but I am saying think about what we need and the players on our current list who might possibly deliver if given the chance. We seem to lack flexibilty among our talls in particular.

I can remember standing on the mounds at Alberton and the crowd around me calling for Jack to 'make a move'. In those days we could make moves and often they would be match winners. I watch games and keep willing Ken to make such a magic move to lift the side and but that move never seems to come. With the possible exception of Justin Westhoff I don't see any such flexibility in the Power side. It may be there but we are never going to know if we don't make a few experimental moves from time to time. Our AFL season is shot so why not experiment a little?

Great post. Hombsch up forward would be interesting and i know clurey can play forward. Would be nice to take a few risks.

 

[Us against the rest]

Our trouble is that we have to many good SANFL players and not AFL players on our list, the likes of Mitchell, Young, Moore, S Gray, Logan, O'Shea. It's about time this club grew up and got some quality AFL types to the club.

 

[Portology]

Wanganeen may be the most "flexible" player we've had in more ways than one. Could and did own every non-KP spot on the ground.

But the Brett Ebert experiment deserves a mention here as well.

How is Cam O'Shea's goalkicking?

With our current haphazard high ball F50 entries, Cam's intercept marking and closing speed might work **for a while**. If our poor kicking is a result of the players being "cooked" physically or mentally then we need to plan to defend against ourself in a sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Us against the rest]

Wanganeen may be the most "flexible" player we've had in more ways than one. Could and did own every non-KP spot on the ground.

But the Brett Ebert experiment deserves a mention here as well.

How is Cam O'Shea's goalkicking?

With our current haphazard high ball F50 entries, Cam's intercept marking and closing speed might work **for a while**. If our poor kicking is a result of the players being "cooked" physically or mentally then we need to plan to defend against ourself in a sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The difference is Wanganeen could kick mark and handball, unlike most of our team atm.

 

[Byrons Firen]

Our trouble is that we have to many good SANFL players and not AFL players on our list, the likes of Mitchell, Young, Moore, S Gray, Logan, O'Shea. It's about time this club grew up and got some quality AFL types to the club.

I watch a fair few Magpie games and although I don't want to agree with this post its true.
Trouble is easier said than done.
On a nostalgic note would love to see Tommy Logan play at AO this year.
His form in the $ANFL has been consistently good.

 

[Us against the rest]

I watch a fair few Magpie games and although I don't want to agree with this post its true.
Trouble is easier said than done.
On a nostalgic note would love to see Tommy Logan play at AO this year.
His form in the $ANFL has been consistently good.

Funny you say that about Logan, i was sitting pondering over some changes v Sydney and thought that Logan would fit in well this week.

 

[Power Raid]

In the John Butcher thread I made some comments about our Coaching Staff not doing enough lateral thing. This was in response to comments about Butcher being given a chance in defence. This got me thinking and asking the question...

When was the last time Port changed a player's direction and converted a run of the mill forward into a top line backman or vice versa ?

When I think back to the glory days of the PAFC in the SANFL I can think of numerous times when Foster then Jack converted a player from the position he had played previously to have him star in another role.

I know this is ancient history but a few examples...

John Abley- recruited as a ruckman but converted to a triple All Australian fullback.
Dennis Errey- average wingman converted to a State half back.
Tim Evans- recruited as a CHB but converted to a Farmer Medallist.
George Fiacchi - B grade rover converted to a Premiership back pocket.
Stephen Williams- converted from a too slow back pocket to a 250 game centreman.

About the only Power player I can think of who has had some degree of change in direction is Matt Lobbe who was originally recruited as a KPP.

It just seems to me we get players on our AFL list, they are pigeon holed into a position, that is where they play at SANFL level and they are never tried anywhere else. If they do not make it that is it. I can think of a couple of players in the current Power line up who really ought to be looked at in a different role. I am not saying throw the names in the air and see where they land but I am saying think about what we need and the players on our current list who might possibly deliver if given the chance. We seem to lack flexibilty among our talls in particular.

I can remember standing on the mounds at Alberton and the crowd around me calling for Jack to 'make a move'. In those days we could make moves and often they would be match winners. I watch games and keep willing Ken to make such a magic move to lift the side and but that move never seems to come. With the possible exception of Justin Westhoff I don't see any such flexibility in the Power side. It may be there but we are never going to know if we don't make a few experimental moves from time to time. Our AFL season is shot so why not experiment a little?

Tim Evans would be the one that leaps to mind first but Woite and Granger could switch roles from forward to back

Tredrea from wingman to CHF/ FF and Chad Cornes from CHF to CHB would be recent examples whilst Thurstons from a forward to a FB is worthy of mention.

I'm hoping Butcher can make it as a CHB and release Trengove to FF or CHF.

 

[Byrons Firen]

Butch is too good to just cut adrift. As to him being trialled in defence hoo'bloody'ray was calling for this last year
Regular AFL player, umm, at the moment nup but complete this year as an SANFL defender and next year who knows.

 

[scotty13]

Westhoff comes to mind. Not a permanent change in position but has gone from a 1 dimensional forward, to a forward, defender, wingman, ruckman... Only position I dont think he has played is Sub.