Position 2015 SuperCoach midfielders

[CaptainChardonnay]

Only speaking for myself, the reason I don't rate Heppell as highly as many (aside from the obvious NM/Ess bias) is that every time I see him he looks more "busy but not damaging" than "game-breaker". That was certainly my recollection from the Elimination Final last year, when he was generally reported as close to BOG. The afl.com.au wrap said

8/10 "Usual dynamic performance from the bombers star although he missed a running shot at goal in the first quarter that could have lifted his team. He was the only bomber that stood tall when North Melbourne hit back and he willed himself to 34 quality disposals including 14 contested possessions"

I needed an excuse to re-watch the second half of that game (nothing'd going to make me rewatch the first half), so I took some notes.

Q3
19:21 W beaten for loose ball

18:44 HB handball receive, sloppy return handball to Stanton’s feet. Stanton tackled OOB.

18:22 HF Crumbs loose ball from marking contest, hurried handball to Goddard. Goddard’s high kick is under pressure but marked by Merrett. Point.

16:23 HF/W Ziebell uses him as stepladder for contested mark

15:49 HB scoops up bad handball from Greenwood. His handball is to teammate’s feet but possession chain is maintained until Sam Wright intercept mark.

14:50 C beaten at centre clearance, NM goal directly from clearance to Brown

13:18 HB wins clearance from throw in but ineffective handball under pressure goes OOB

12:13 HB 3rd-man-up hitout goes OOB

09:21 HB. Free for in marking contest vs McDonald. Kicks long to a contest. Ess possession chain ends with Daniher dropped chest mark

08:39 W spoiled by Atley in marking contest. Resulting NM possession chain ends in goal to Gibson.

07:46 HB handball receive, baulks his direct opponent nicely, undercooks a simple 30m kick to Daniher. Possession chain maintained but now under pressure and ultimately breaks down at HF.

07:16 HF gets clearance from throw-in, hacks it forward, cleaned up by NM

07:09 HF crumbs from marking contest, gets clean handball out the back to Stanton. Possession chain ends up with a goal to Howlett

05:20 FB avoids contest as Ziebell takes a contested mark and goals.

04:20 C handball receive at centre clearance. Successfully executes 3m handball backwards. Following kick intercepted by Scott Thompson.

04:02 HB handball receive, successfully executes 3m handball sideways. Resulting possession chain intercepted by Sam Wright

03:20 W competes for loose ball after marking contest. Head over ball! Watson clears from contest to start possession chain. But hey, he helped!

02:07 HB beaten for loose ball by Swallow as NM drive Ess back toward their goals and eventually goal through Thomas

01:45 C wins centre clearance. Handball under pressure goes to Zaharakis’ feet but possession chain maintained

01:39 C in same possession chain, handball receive in the clear. Kicks inside 50, but too wide for Stanton.

Q4

19:45 HB pressures Greenwood into a poor kick. On the return kick, is unable to outmark Dal Santo, spoiled OOB.

19:25 HB scoops up loose ball in traffic, gets nice handball away to release Stanton. Stanton’s kick intercepted by Firrito and returned for a goal to Brown.

16:20 W half-hearted effort to pressure Thompson near the boundary. Ball cleared forward.

14:52 C tackles Cunnington at centre clearance but can’t prevent him getting a handball off to a runner. NM possession chain ends with a point to Thomas.

12:57 wins centre clearance, hacks it into space where Chapman wins the race for the loose ball.

12:16 HF gathers loose ball on 50, dinky sideways kick to Myers <15m. Myers forced to play on and is smothered.

08:34 W takes free for OOF. Kicks long to a contest where Ryder takes that mark and goal.

05:57 HB/BP handball receive, nifty little kick in traffic to relieve pressure.

04:18 C after Petrie’s first goal, is not in centre square group

03:59 C after Petrie’s second goal, is in the centre square group. Not his fault the tap went nowhere near him.

02:12 HB in the right place for an uncontested mark of Goddard’s hurried kick. His own kick is intercepted by Wells.

00:43 HF Essendon need to score from this stoppage to keep their slim chances alive. Too easily outbodied at the stoppage clearance by Greenwood.

By my reckoning, that's
poor efforts or disposal 18
neutral efforts 7
good work fella 5

In a bit more detail,

'good' disposals 3
'poor' disposals 8
'regulation' disposals 7
K 9
HB 9
ineffective clearances 2
effective clearances 2
FF 1+ 1 from OOF
FA 0
tackles 1 ineffective
other pressure acts 1
intercept possessions maybe 1?
loose ball gets 4
hard ball gets 5 (I might be being charitable; counted all clearances here despite them being loose balls)
uncontested poss 8
marks 1
beaten in contest leading to NM score 4.1
beaten in contest no damage 5
score involvements 2.1
score assists 1 (maybe ... do you get an assist for kicking long to a contest in the fwd 50?)
scores 0
poor disposal leading to messy possession chain or halved/lost contest 4
intercepted disposals 1
head over ball 1
pointless hitouts 1
times burned off his man to create an option in space 0
times I said "wow, how did he do that?" 0

Despite being about 30 involvements in play in a half, that looks to me more like a momentum killer and poor contested player than "stood tall when North Melbourne hit back". FFS, 4 of North's 7 3rd quarter goals came after he was beaten directly one on one. If I barracked for Essendon I'd be shitty with him that game.

Granted it's only half a game and I know it's not necessarily SC relevant, but I just had to get it off my chest. He's good at getting to where the ball is, that's for sure.

Couldn't agree more. Gets plenty of it but are usually uncontested possessions and is a seagull of the highest order. He's not a bad player, but honestly, I don't see what the fuss is all about. He'll get better but if he wasn't so noticeable (.i.e. his hair), I wonder if he'd get pumped up so much.

 

[CaptainChardonnay]

Overall points don't count for jack sh^t unless you have that player from the start. I'll happily bring in a player with less overall points because I knew that they were coming in with no pre-season, carrying an injury or just notoriously slow starters or alternatively, bring in a premium that was subbed out, had 4 weeks off and then had a game or two being managed back into the side. i.e. being played fwd instead of on the ball and subbed out when the team was 9 goals clear.

What counts is the AVERAGE that they score WHEN YOU THEM!!

 

[karaoke]

It is, but when looking at overall scores, you still need to factor in what your bench scores may be. Durability is a little misleading because if you take Fyfe's 2014 season, IIRC he didn't miss any games through injury. Pretty sure he missed 2 through suspension early and was rested late in the year. As we know this could happen to anyone and resting of players going into finals is common.

Durability is a key for sure, I think everyone agrees with that, but the overall points is open to interpretation depending on each individual team.

Yes, but if we look at it from one of the positions we are effectively talking about, say M5 - I'd rather that position be filled each week by a premium player, than a bench player.

Each week a bench player has to fill that spot, the potential total points that can be generated by that position falls.

If my M5 is 'sorted' (not needing to be replaced due to injury, suspension or resting) it means one less hassle and that I can work on maximising the scoring at M6,7 &8.

As a side note, if somebody had selected Jones as M5 at start of last year (perhaps due to cost or POD), his eventual ending up at M8 wouldn't have been such a big issue - was priced at 90 to begin, ended with 108 ave. Murphy was priced at 93 to start and had 106 ave, missing one game FWIW.

 

[karaoke]

Overall points don't count for jack sh^t unless you have that player from the start. I'll happily bring in a player with less overall points because I knew that they were coming in with no pre-season, carrying an injury or just notoriously slow starters or alternatively, bring in a premium that was subbed out, had 4 weeks off and then had a game or two being managed back into the side. i.e. being played fwd instead of on the ball and subbed out when the team was 9 goals clear.

What counts is the AVERAGE that they score WHEN YOU THEM!!

It's the total points they score for you in the time you have them.

Be that 22 or 8 games.

 

[NT.Thunder]

Yes, but if we look at it from one of the positions we are effectively talking about, say M5 - I'd rather that position be filled each week by a premium player, than a bench player.

Each week a bench player has to fill that spot, the potential total points that can be generated by that position falls.

If my M5 is 'sorted' (not needing to be replaced due to injury, suspension or resting) it means one less hassle and that I can work on maximising the scoring at M6,7 &8.

As a side note, if somebody had selected Jones as M5 at start of last year (perhaps due to cost or POD), his eventual ending up at M8 wouldn't have been such a big issue - was priced at 90 to begin, ended with 108 ave. Murphy was priced at 93 to start and had 106 ave, missing one game FWIW.

All I'm saying is that putting those numbers up without the inclusion of an additional X number of games as coverage from bench cover is not as cut and dry as the poster is making out. You can use an average of 50ppg or 100ppg as coverage, that's dependent on when yr sub-premium may miss and who you have as coverage.

I'm not talking about someone like Watson that misses a large chunk out of 2014 because a trade would've been used. I'm talking about something like JPK missing 2 games and not factoring any bench scores which may take him up as high as 4th or 5th on the list. Was Jones a better option than JPK or Gibbs, I don't believe so and if you look at the top 50 sides from last season, I'd say JPK was probably in min 60% of these teams and Jones possibly 5%.

 

[MightyMark]

Overall points don't count for jack sh^t unless you have that player from the start. I'll happily bring in a player with less overall points because I knew that they were coming in with no pre-season, carrying an injury or just notoriously slow starters or alternatively, bring in a premium that was subbed out, had 4 weeks off and then had a game or two being managed back into the side. i.e. being played fwd instead of on the ball and subbed out when the team was 9 goals clear.

What counts is the AVERAGE that they score WHEN YOU THEM!!

The point is that the guys who score the highest overall points are the guys you should have from the start.

It will never happen, the same as with averages it's all guess work for now.

But if you knew that a player was going to end up in the top 10 of any position in overall scoring you would probably take that guy at the start of the season over someone who averages more but misses half the year.

I do agree that overall points for players that miss a game aren't absolute because the idea is you have bench cover so for the games they missed you didn't record a 0 you may have got 50 or 60. Makes a difference at the end of the year.

But overall points are the best indicator for your set and forget players. It's a safe option, but smart trading and the fact we now have 30 trades allows you the luxury of looking at averages rather than overall scores.

 

[CaptainChardonnay]

It's the total points they score for you in the time you have them.

Be that 22 or 8 games.

Same thing.

 

[Feerits Elf]

What counts is the AVERAGE that they score WHEN YOU THEM!!

Hey, you ACCIDENTALLY A WORD!!

 

[karaoke]

All I'm saying is that putting those numbers up without the inclusion of an additional X number of games as coverage from bench cover is not as cut and dry as the poster is making out. You can use an average of 50ppg or 100ppg as coverage, that's dependent on when yr sub-premium may miss and who you have as coverage.

I'm not talking about someone like Watson that misses a large chunk out of 2014 because a trade would've been used. I'm talking about something like JPK missing 2 games and not factoring any bench scores which may take him up as high as 4th or 5th on the list. Was Jones a better option than JPK or Gibbs, I don't believe so and if you look at the top 50 sides from last season, I'd say JPK was probably in min 60% of these teams and Jones possibly 5%.

Agreed with the total points + emerg allowance to give better picture in hindsight.

My point is that durable premium players are worth their weight as they more or less can be set & forget when looking to plan either initial or ongoing trades. Ie Jelwood.

Less weekly carnage is better for all SC coaches, be they top 50 coaches or not.

 

[NT.Thunder]

Agreed with the total points + emerg allowance to give better picture in hindsight.

My point is that durable premium players are worth their weight as they more or less can be set & forget when looking to plan either initial or ongoing trades. Ie Jelwood.

Less weekly carnage is better for all SC coaches, be they top 50 coaches or not.

SC101 right there.

I just don't class Jones or Gibbs as premiums

 

[rocker_oz33]

Gibbs was a premo def, just not quiet premo mid yet!... this could be hes year.

 

[rocker_oz33]

Fyfe do peeps think he will spend little more time forward? reckon he will help or slow down hes scoring.

 

[KardiniaPark]

Fyfe do peeps think he will spend little more time forward? reckon he will help or slow down hes scoring.

He's the second best midfielder in the league. He will play forward but that's just as a resting forward instead of going to the bench which is better for SC anyway. If you start a team without Fyfe this year you're mad...or Juddy

 

[MightyMark]

Fyfe do peeps think he will spend little more time forward? reckon he will help or slow down hes scoring.

I think the only thing that will slow him down is his shoulder.

He might see a bit of a dip in scoring but when your coming off an average of 122, then you've earnt the right to drop a few points if you want too and still be a super premo.

 

[TheOz]

I think the only thing that will slow him down is his shoulder.

He might see a bit of a dip in scoring but when your coming off an average of 122, then you've earnt the right to drop a few points if you want too and still be a super premo.

Shoulder and the annual suspensions.

 

[Samples]

Thoughts on Shuey?

With Natanui fully fit could see his average bump up nicely. In 2012 Nic Nat played 20 games and averaged 114, the same year Shuey played 19 and averaged 103 ( his highest average).

 

[MightyMark]

Thoughts on Shuey?

With Natanui fully fit could see his average bump up nicely. In 2012 Nic Nat played 20 games and averaged 114, the same year Shuey played 19 and averaged 103 ( his highest average).

I cant see him going higher than that this season. Come across as a player that will max out around 105.

 

[toxic]

Gibbs was a premo def, just not quiet premo mid yet!... this could be hes year.

Where did he rank overall last yr in relation to mids?

 

[MightyMark]

Where did he rank overall last yr in relation to mids?

23rd in average

 

[toxic]

23rd in average

He's close.
i doubt he can make premo status but having kreuzer and a fit judd makes it a possibility

 

[Krujan]

He's close.
i doubt he can make premo status but having kreuzer and a fit judd makes it a possibility

Speaking of Judd he's having his 1st proper pre-seasaon in 3 years (so far) averaged 90 from 13 games last year which included an injury affected 6 points. 98 average if if discount that, but priced at 90 is tempting. I'm not game enough to pick him, but wouldn't be surprised to see him wind back the clock and average 105-110 this year if he can stay injury free.

 

[MightyMark]

Speaking of Judd he's having his 1st proper pre-seasaon in 3 years (so far) averaged 90 from 13 games last year which included an injury affected 6 points. 98 average if if discount that, but priced at 90 is tempting. I'm not game enough to pick him, but wouldn't be surprised to see him wind back the clock and average 105-110 this year if he can stay injury free.

He will be back on the injury list in no time, you don't become less susceptible to soft tissue injuries in your 30's.

Just delaying the inevitable, the only way he will play out a full season is if he is managed through it, and if that happens there is no way he is going to be pumping out 105-110.

 

[Krujan]

He will be back on the injury list in no time, you don't become less susceptible to soft tissue injuries in your 30's.

Just delaying the inevitable, the only way he will play out a full season is if he is managed through it, and if that happens there is no way he is going to be pumping out 105-110.

I did say if

 

[CaptainChardonnay]

Speaking of Judd he's having his 1st proper pre-seasaon in 3 years (so far) averaged 90 from 13 games last year which included an injury affected 6 points. 98 average if if discount that, but priced at 90 is tempting. I'm not game enough to pick him, but wouldn't be surprised to see him wind back the clock and average 105-110 this year if he can stay injury free.

Clearly no smoke etiquette in hour house mate. Two tokes and pass to the right. Don't hog the whole thing to yourself and start posting on BF!

 

[toxic]

Clearly no smoke etiquette in hour house mate. Two tokes and pass to the right. Don't hog the whole thing to yourself and start posting on BF!

Ahh the puff puff pass....