Live Event 2017 Charles Sutton Medal - 4 October, 7pm @ Crown Palladium

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mcgleereturns said:
What we don’t know is how the coaches view a player’s game compared to us. If a midfield coach sets Jack or Toby some benchmarks to meet or gives them a specific role to fulfil and they go out and get 25-30 touches but don’t do what was asked then coach will mark them down. Ching voters go, well played on the 30 possessions, some amazing plays, here’s 5 votes. Personally, I’m more surprised Toby wasn’t Top 10 than Jack being 3rd. But the coaches clearly have different criteria to fans, media and even players. I remember during the JJ form slump a couple of times Bevo praises him for little things he was doing while everyone else was stressing over his lack of possessions and run. The last person I thought would be up there for most of the count was Easton Wood but clearly the coaches felt his efforts were vital defensively even though his overall game was nothing to 2 previous years. Same with Fletch. Would love to know what he was doing so well early in the year and what went wrong. Biggsy and Daniel were dropped early and came back and must have done more what the coaches were looking for than Toby. It’s interesting. Would loved to hear about the decision making processes behind the votes. Would be far more fascinating than the vacuous tripe we get from On the Couch interviews regarding recycled questions about surfing and skateboards!


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If Macrae wasn't playing the role he was supposed to, he would have been told loud and clear very early on in the season. His role and game style didn't waver throughout the season, suggesting the coaches had no problems with how he was playing. He's been dropped before for not playing his role - Bevo isn't afraid to send a significant message to players not on the same page as him.

Given this, it is ridiculous to suggest that Macrae was denied votes for disobeying coaches' orders. Not only does it seem apparent that Macrae is one of the most diligent and hard workers at the club, but his performances across the year were of an excellent standard, winning the ball consistently while maintaining his strong defensive workrate and pressure at the contest. He doesn't deserve to be unfairly criticised as a result of his surprising lack of votes - it should be a critique of the people actually giving out the votes, as there is not enough evidence to suggest that Macrae was performing outside of his designated role in the team.
 
Turtle3 said:
My quick summary of last night was:
  • really interested that Jake's name was never mentioned and the topic was never raised. Gordon only referenced it in vague terms around the club knowing what it was doing and that we should trust the people in charge because they have earned our trust. With media there and the posturing going on around trade value, it makes sense that we would not not to inflame the situation further
  • as mentioned elsewhere another 7 figure profit and notionally debt free. We will continue to invest in Whitten Oval and Gordon is hoping we host heritage round matches there again. Some sponsorship extensions VU for 5 years (keeping stadium naming rights and ball sponsor), Cape Grim another 4 years and Mercedes Vans as we knew starting from Nov 1
  • Bevo didn't give much away but confessed that maybe many at the club just didn't want to move on from last year. He implored that we need to rediscover the hunger and essentially rediscover the hunter mentality again. He referenced the lyrics of a song that I have never hear of from a band I've never heard from an album released in 2010 that Ive never heard of. If anyone remember the song and the band please let me know as I'd love to give it a listen.
  • Loved seeing Crossy back at the club.
  • Moyd needed a script writer! He spoke from the heart and it will be very very sad to see him go (and be in black and white)
  • The work of our psychologist & welfare (Brent Prismall) was highlighted. Obviously they have been busy with everything that's been going on! Maybe they need some help.
  • Bob was the highlight for me. Not saying anything that everyone doesn't know but he is such a natural and charismatic story teller and so genuine I could listen to him for hours. The line about the admin lady handing him the paper after he cleaned out his locker, really rammed home how brutal football is. "What's this?" Bob asked, "It means that you no longer play for us" she says. Imagine having that said to you when you are the heart and soul of the club. I know it was said with humour but think about it. Once you are done you are done and things move on. I really hope we find a way to have Bob around the club performing a similar role to 2016 whilst he was injured. It really dawned on me last night that without he and Moyd around the club an awful lot will fall on Woody / Bont leadership wise. The warmth, humour and humilty that Bob has I think will be needed this season.
  • I hadn't seen much of John Schultz at the games this year (maybe I just missed it) but his presence alone I think was underestimated in 2016. He is just so loved and respected by everyone I would live to see him being around the club and the boys as much as he seemed to be in 2016.
  • I was delighted to see the internal recognition that Zaine received. Really does seem to be the heir apparent to Moz. I just love his competitiveness.
  • Ballarat was barely mentioned (once by Gordon from memory), I though they'd make more of it particularly in the first year.
  • I thought the count it self was actually pretty ordinary, only ever showed the top 10 and it was almost downplayed.
  • Like many other I was stunned that Jack didn't poll better, thought it he was a certainty. I think the final results and where players ended up reflected our season... just not good enough.
  • I am now the proud owner of a signed JJ jumper courtesy the silent auction. Not sure where the hell I'm going to put it!
  • Desert was delicious
Most important of all...








I can confirm that I saw VD and Lynch in the same room at the same time. Didn't have time to take a picture but they are indeed 2 different people.
Click to expand...
Thanks Turtle. Great report.
Well, I believed it all until that last sentence. No way!

EDIT: I note it was only 679 words :eek: ... but you're forgiven. ;)
 
Gollo said:
If Macrae wasn't playing the role he was supposed to, he would have been told loud and clear very early on in the season. His role and game style didn't waver throughout the season, suggesting the coaches had no problems with how he was playing. He's been dropped before for not playing his role - Bevo isn't afraid to send a significant message to players not on the same page as him.

Given this, it is ridiculous to suggest that Macrae was denied votes for disobeying coaches' orders. Not only does it seem apparent that Macrae is one of the most diligent and hard workers at the club, but his performances across the year were of an excellent standard, winning the ball consistently while maintaining his strong defensive workrate and pressure at the contest. He doesn't deserve to be unfairly criticised as a result of his surprising lack of votes - it should be a critique of the people actually giving out the votes, as there is not enough evidence to suggest that Macrae was performing outside of his designated role in the team.
Click to expand...

I wasn’t unfairly criticising Jack. I wasn’t even criticising him. I was theorising on possible reasons why he and Maclean were relatively overlooked when compared to our opinions, which after all are just that - opinions. I thought Macrae should have won and definitely was well ahead of JJ but just like the 3-2-1 Brownlow voting system doesn’t suit Jack’s consistency, it would appear that our clubs voting system doesn’t either. There are clearly reasons why he ( and Toby) didn’t poll as well as expected. The people voting have reasons for assessing other players ahead of Jack in given games we saw differently. It doesn’t me he did something worthy of being dropped but in that given game other players did what was required of them more than he did. We don’t know. We don’t know why Scott West lost a Brownlow when he got. No votes for a 40 possession game but the umpires involved saw something different from 3 players they thought was better and he was fourth best?!

And they didn’t exactly ignore him. He came 3rd, 30 votes behind. Sounds a lot but over 22 rounds in a high voting system not a lot. A few differences of opinions with us is all it takes.


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mcgleereturns said:
I wasn’t unfairly criticising Jack. I wasn’t even criticising him. I was theorising on possible reasons why he and Maclean were relatively overlooked when compared to our opinions, which after all are just that - opinions. I thought Macrae should have won and definitely was well ahead of JJ but just like the 3-2-1 Brownlow voting system doesn’t suit Jack’s consistency, it would appear that our clubs voting system doesn’t either. There are clearly reasons why he ( and Toby) didn’t poll as well as expected. The people voting have reasons for assessing other players ahead of Jack in given games we saw differently. It doesn’t me he did something worthy of being dropped but in that given game other players did what was required of them more than he did. We don’t know. We don’t know why Scott West lost a Brownlow when he got. No votes for a 40 possession game but the umpires involved saw something different from 3 players they thought was better and he was fourth best?!

And they didn’t exactly ignore him. He came 3rd, 30 votes behind. Sounds a lot but over 22 rounds in a high voting system not a lot. A few differences of opinions with us is all it takes.


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Click to expand...
Fair enough, I just felt your previous comment had it in for Jack a bit - I must have misinterpreted.
 
Yep, that's fair enough, Macrae's value is in his high lows, as opposed to his high highs, if that makes sense - has not had a game of less than 20 touches since 2015 whilst playing every game consecutively since then
 
Macrae surprised a few with his second place in the CSM 2-3 years ago and publicly stated his determination to go one better. I thought this year was his big chance but 3rd place is still very creditable.

With Jacko we know he'll be back and giving it his best shot next year. And every year after.

Such a contrast in personality, attitude and work ethic (ATM) to the bloke taken one pick earlier in the same draft.
 
JJ second by a vote? Give me a bloody break, what the hell is going on at our club, even the coaches minds have become clouded. Macrae had a much better season. I’m surprised Cloke didn’t get in the top 5! :rolleyes:
 
Braybrook Son said:
JJ second by a vote? Give me a bloody break, what the hell is going on at our club, even the coaches minds have become clouded. Macrae had a much better season. I’m surprised Cloke didn’t get in the top 5! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Agree with this. JJ had a poor year but a few really good games. I question how McLean wasn't top 10. Dahlhaus not great either but surely top 10.
 
The Charles Sutton panel has as much credibility as the Match Review Panel. OK, that's a bit extreme, but you get my drift.
 
Turtle3 said:
My quick summary of last night was:
  • really interested that Jake's name was never mentioned and the topic was never raised. Gordon only referenced it in vague terms around the club knowing what it was doing and that we should trust the people in charge because they have earned our trust. With media there and the posturing going on around trade value, it makes sense that we would not not to inflame the situation further
  • as mentioned elsewhere another 7 figure profit and notionally debt free. We will continue to invest in Whitten Oval and Gordon is hoping we host heritage round matches there again. Some sponsorship extensions VU for 5 years (keeping stadium naming rights and ball sponsor), Cape Grim another 4 years and Mercedes Vans as we knew starting from Nov 1
  • Bevo didn't give much away but confessed that maybe many at the club just didn't want to move on from last year. He implored that we need to rediscover the hunger and essentially rediscover the hunter mentality again. He referenced the lyrics of a song that I have never hear of from a band I've never heard from an album released in 2010 that Ive never heard of. If anyone remember the song and the band please let me know as I'd love to give it a listen.
  • Loved seeing Crossy back at the club.
  • Moyd needed a script writer! He spoke from the heart and it will be very very sad to see him go (and be in black and white)
  • The work of our psychologist & welfare (Brent Prismall) was highlighted. Obviously they have been busy with everything that's been going on! Maybe they need some help.
  • Bob was the highlight for me. Not saying anything that everyone doesn't know but he is such a natural and charismatic story teller and so genuine I could listen to him for hours. The line about the admin lady handing him the paper after he cleaned out his locker, really rammed home how brutal football is. "What's this?" Bob asked, "It means that you no longer play for us" she says. Imagine having that said to you when you are the heart and soul of the club. I know it was said with humour but think about it. Once you are done you are done and things move on. I really hope we find a way to have Bob around the club performing a similar role to 2016 whilst he was injured. It really dawned on me last night that without he and Moyd around the club an awful lot will fall on Woody / Bont leadership wise. The warmth, humour and humilty that Bob has I think will be needed this season.
  • I hadn't seen much of John Schultz at the games this year (maybe I just missed it) but his presence alone I think was underestimated in 2016. He is just so loved and respected by everyone I would live to see him being around the club and the boys as much as he seemed to be in 2016.
  • I was delighted to see the internal recognition that Zaine received. Really does seem to be the heir apparent to Moz. I just love his competitiveness.
  • Ballarat was barely mentioned (once by Gordon from memory), I though they'd make more of it particularly in the first year.
  • I thought the count it self was actually pretty ordinary, only ever showed the top 10 and it was almost downplayed.
  • Like many other I was stunned that Jack didn't poll better, thought it he was a certainty. I think the final results and where players ended up reflected our season... just not good enough.
  • I am now the proud owner of a signed JJ jumper courtesy the silent auction. Not sure where the hell I'm going to put it!
  • Desert was delicious
Most important of all...








I can confirm that I saw VD and Lynch in the same room at the same time. Didn't have time to take a picture but they are indeed 2 different people.
Click to expand...

Pretty much all that (though I didn’t win with my bid item). I will add a couple of things too.
1. Lewis Young is incredibly well spoken for an 18 year old. He seemed quite confident speaking when he won the 1st year player award. I was most impressed. He also rivals Toyd in the best hair stakes.
2. Whilst no names were mentioned by Bevo, I heard some things in his speech which seemed to me to allude to Jake- just in regards to supporting players and personal decisions. I don’t think the door is totally closed yet (just my opinion). My initial though was that he doesn’t show, he’s gone but the idea that maybe he was advised to avoid the night give me a sliver of hope. And I’ve never heard of the song either.
3. Goondog has an amazing slight of hand. I would advise not ever playing poker with him.
4. Agree on pretty much everything Turtle said (particularly on the dessert issue).

But overall, a really good night. I was backing Macrae for a win but it was not to be. Can’t begrudge the Bont though. Thanks again Mike_
 
Zephiisdaman said:
Yep I thought he has been unfairly maligned this year. He wouldn’t know what a hardball get is but he still was pretty reasonable this year. That’s just my opinion.
Click to expand...
I'm with you (and the coaches for a change), I like Suckling. He's no world beater and he certainly has his flaws, but he was good for us this year. He needs others to pull their weight so he doesn't get exposed but he's very consistent in offering us what he's in the team to do.

There are plenty of bigger fish to fry when it comes to 2017.
 

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Dry Rot said:
WTF is that award?
Click to expand...
"Domestique" is a cycling term for worker/teammate. Pro cycling is a really weird sport because it's a team sport with an individual winner, ie, in the Tour de France you have 8 blokes working their butts off by collecting water bottles from the team car, protecting the leader from the wind, etc. Just so one bloke can attempt to win the stage or the overall.

So it's kind of hard to explain. It's more than just being a "good clubman/teammate", and it's more than just being "a hard worker" - it's the combination of the two, working hard for the team. The domestique award gives recognition to those blokes.

On top of that, the club has a weekly award which they make a big deal about as well. The players wear the polka-dot jersey from the Tour de France during training* (as seen here worn by Crameri) and they've actually put plaques up in the indoor training area for the winners of it every week. So not out of place that they have a B&F award

1037fffeb701240b0af50f44bdae5e6a


* the polka-dot jersey is actually for a separate competition called Kings of the Mountains where the first one up over the Tour's mountains gets points, but my guess is they just chose polka dots, because, polka dots.
 
threenewpadlocks said:
"Domestique" is a cycling term for worker/teammate. Pro cycling is a really weird sport because it's a team sport with an individual winner, ie, in the Tour de France you have 8 blokes working their butts off by collecting water bottles from the team car, protecting the leader from the wind, etc. Just so one bloke can attempt to win the stage or the overall.

So it's kind of hard to explain. It's more than just being a "good clubman/teammate", and it's more than just being "a hard worker" - it's the combination of the two, working hard for the team. The domestique award gives recognition to those blokes.

On top of that, the club has a weekly award which they make a big deal about as well. The players wear the polka-dot jersey from the Tour de France during training* (as seen here worn by Crameri) and they've actually put plaques up in the indoor training area for the winners of it every week. So not out of place that they have a B&F award

1037fffeb701240b0af50f44bdae5e6a


* the polka-dot jersey is actually for a separate competition called Kings of the Mountains where the first one up over the Tour's mountains gets points, but my guess is they just chose polka dots, because, polka dots.
Click to expand...


Great. Thanks.
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
I'm with you (and the coaches for a change), I like Suckling. He's no world beater and he certainly has his flaws, but he was good for us this year. He needs others to pull their weight so he doesn't get exposed but he's very consistent in offering us what he's in the team to do.

There are plenty of bigger fish to fry when it comes to 2017.
Click to expand...
Exactly, people have to realise what his role is in the team. He isn’t the bloke like Moz who puts everything on the line. He’s the bloke that is the sprinkles on top of the icing that’s on top of the cake. When we have a less than good year he is easy to 5hit on, the facts are we were down in nearly every facet of the game this year.
Reminds of the crap Eagleton used to cop and he was a pretty serviceable player for us in a few different roles. He was a hff, an outside mid and a run with mid. He did all roles pretty well, played a lot of games and still got bagged for it.
 
Dogs_R_Us said:
I think the domestique is voted by the players themselves, isn't it?
Click to expand...
Yes it is. Voted by the players for the bloke who best puts the team’s interest above his own interests. It is actually a very highly rated award internally despite receiving little external recognition as I understand it.
 
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