Moved Thread #1: Majak Daw -

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Saintly31 said:
Yep, similar happened to me years ago with a girl who knew the system (as I do). But I didn't abuse her, nor have any evidence against me that I abused her, I did not indulge her threats and of course nothing happened.

That is the difference in Daw's case as the prosecution would not get this far purely on baseless claims. They wouldn't bother wasting the Court's time with such a high burden of proof.

He is either guilty of forcing sexual behavior against her will, sexual events happened and she stopped consenting half way through (creating a massive grey area in law), or it was consensual all along and she is blatantly lying about it. They are the plausible accounts of what happened based on the charges so one can only hope justice prevails one way or another.
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How is there a "massive grey area" when she stops consenting? She consents until she doesn't, after that anything he does is without consent and is rape. If she says stop he HAS to stop. There's no grey area there that I can see and it's concerning if people think there is a "grey area".
 
Event Horizon said:
Of course I don't know. I am merely saying what seems logical, but there is no doubt there could be more to it.
But logically, after 7 years there can't be much to it. Personally, if I saw two people on the grass 7 years ago at a party (especially after a few drinks) I doubt I would be able to recollect too many details about what exactly I saw.
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Presumably it was a topic of conversation (possibly involving Police) within the friendship group at that time, and presumably there weren't many conversations about overseeing someone (allegedly) getting raped. So you'd probably remember it fairly vividly in that context I'd think. Not something you'd quickly forget if you knew you'd even glanced at (an alleged) rape in progress.
 
coopers pale said:
How is there a "massive grey area" when she stops consenting? She consents until she doesn't, after that anything he does is without consent and is rape. If she says stop he HAS to stop. There's no grey area there that I can see and it's concerning if people think there is a "grey area".
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There is a grey area at law, and there are numerous cases where consensual intercourse that turns into non-consensual intercourse are problematic in terms of evidence and culpability.

It shouldn't be concerning to you, it is simply fact that rape cases are not always as straight forward as you are claiming.
 
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coopers pale said:
How is there a "massive grey area" when she stops consenting? She consents until she doesn't, after that anything he does is without consent and is rape. If she says stop he HAS to stop. There's no grey area there that I can see and it's concerning if people think there is a "grey area".
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I can't see how there wouldn't be a grey area. It'd be hard to prove without forced entry. I 100% agree with what you are getting it but I see where saintly is coming from
 
I'm with coopers pale on this. I don't think there's a "grey area" at all. Once consent is withdrawn, it's fairly straightforward: everything from that point onwards is nonconsensual sex.
 
Tas said:
I am not comfortable with waiting until a minor becomes an adult and then trying them as an adult, the system designed to handle minors is different than with adults.

So if a girl I knew as a 7 year old sexually assaulted me when I was kid I could ludicrous go to police now that she is probably old, married and has adult kids now and that I could lay a charge on her as an adult and get her locked up in jail for something done as a minor. It just seems ludicrous to be able to do that.
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How ludicrous is this!!!

I had a problem with dacking myself in kinda. I was only 4 but no doubt I was in the wrong.

So one of my kinda class mates now have a case against me as an adult?
 
Is there no statute of limitations on sexual assault?
 
Flawed Genius said:
I'm with coopers pale on this. I don't think there's a "grey area" at all. Once consent is withdrawn, it's fairly straightforward: everything from that point onwards is nonconsensual sex.
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Of course if the facts lend itself in the manner suggested by the poster of course it becomes non-consensual at that point.

Sometimes there is not an express change in consent however, rather claim it after the event for a variety of reasons. Hence a clear grey area exists as to when sex turns into rape if it was considered consensual to begin with.
 
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2 16 year olds at a party 7 years ago with issues surrounding consent, it is as murky as f***.
 
LETSGOKANGAS said:
How ludicrous is this!!!

I had a problem with dacking myself in kinda. I was only 4 but no doubt I was in the wrong.

So one of my kinda class mates now have a case against me as an adult?
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That is a little different to majak's situation. That being said, you sir, are a perverse individual and i will be forwarding your post to the authorities.
 
coopers pale said:
How is there a "massive grey area" when she stops consenting? She consents until she doesn't, after that anything he does is without consent and is rape. If she says stop he HAS to stop. There's no grey area there that I can see and it's concerning if people think there is a "grey area".
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I think the grey area Saintly was referring to relates to how consent can be given and withdrawn in a wide variety of ways, eg verbal, non-verbal, body language, physical cues etc etc. And sometimes that can occur very clearly, and in other occasions not especially clearly at all. Plus consent to something (e.g kissing) does not necessarily mean consent to something else (e.g sex) but crossed wires, misunderstandings and sheer lust can make all this horribly messy.

For example if she consents at first and but then changes her mind or doesn't want things to go further and says "Stop!", then it is pretty bloody clear that she's not consenting and anyone moronic enough to continue deserves to spend some quality time with Bubba. That scenario is pretty straightforward.

But what if she freezes? Is too afraid to speak or try to push him off? Isn't into what he's doing but doesn't want to offend him or make him angry in case he turns on her (she's in a vulnerable position) so she just "lies back and thinks of England" and hopes it will be over soon? These are all common scenarios in sexual assault cases and are often the scenarios where proving the sexual assault becomes difficult because the immediate response from the bloke is "I had no idea she wasn't consenting - she was definitely into it at first and she didn't say anything or do anything that suggested to me that she wasn't".

In these scenarios, she's not consenting (or at some point in time has stopped consenting) but she's also not doing a lot to convey that she isn't. Has consent been effectively withdrawn, or was it never given in the first place? How is the guy to tell the difference? Should he asking her if she's into it at every step of the way? If he doesn't, does he lack consent? That's where it gets grey. The law even recognises this grey area, in that it is not rape if the guy had a reasonable basis for believing that she was consenting (even if she actually wasn't).
 
Absolutely spot on astrovic - was the exact point I intended to make, with your post giving far more detail on why the law regarding consent and sexual offences can be very problematic.
 
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LETSGOKANGAS said:
How ludicrous is this!!!

I had a problem with dacking myself in kinda. I was only 4 but no doubt I was in the wrong.

So one of my kinda class mates now have a case against me as an adult?
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Not sure if dacking was sexual assault, but kids often do crazy s**t that as an adult would result in serious jail time.
 
Event Horizon said:
But all in all, the whole 7 year delay I find simply astounding. No logical explanation I can think of can explain that, including any emotional scarring.
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Can't get any money out of a 16yo with nothing even if guilty.

7 years forward and suddenly that 16yo has plenty of cash. You can be found not guilty by a jury but guilty in a civil case.

Hmmmm..... Just Sayin of course !!!
 
It's definitely a grey area. The other scenario that hasn't really been discussed is initially she consents and then mid way through she changes her mind, the guy already having penetrated the female should withdraw obviously but where does the line stop where the female can claim rape.

They engaged in an act fully to which one party then reneged on. How would the courts see this, my thought is the guy would be judged in the wrong no matter what unless he launched himself out of there the moment the first syllable of stop crossed her lips.

And maybe she saw her friend "4m away" which is what caused her to say stop.

So many possible outcomes in that scenario
 
coopers pale said:
That reads revoltingly. If the girls (now woman's) friend testifies as well then it's two against one. It's very hard to see what she'd gain by making this allegation up, and then re-visiting it after all these years. At this stage though a presumption of innocence still remains (though I'm less convinced).

He's unlikely to go to jail though given his age at time of offending, relative low prospect of him re-offending (so no need to incarcerate to 'protect the community'), the only arguments for jail are the harm caused by the offending and 'sending a message to would-be rapists'. On balance he gets a Good Behaviour Bond most likely.

I don't mind saying that if he was convicted and his contract not terminated I'd drop my North membership like a steamy dog turd. It'd hurt like hell but as was my stand with Milne, I won't support a team with that would tolerate that type of player on its list.
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Is that the same Stephen Milne who recently had rape charges dropped? Or another one?
 
astrovic said:
I think the grey area Saintly was referring to relates to how consent can be given and withdrawn in a wide variety of ways, eg verbal, non-verbal, body language, physical cues etc etc. And sometimes that can occur very clearly, and in other occasions not especially clearly at all. Plus consent to something (e.g kissing) does not necessarily mean consent to something else (e.g sex) but crossed wires, misunderstandings and sheer lust can make all this horribly messy.

For example if she consents at first and but then changes her mind or doesn't want things to go further and says "Stop!", then it is pretty bloody clear that she's not consenting and anyone moronic enough to continue deserves to spend some quality time with Bubba. That scenario is pretty straightforward.

But what if she freezes? Is too afraid to speak or try to push him off? Isn't into what he's doing but doesn't want to offend him or make him angry in case he turns on her (she's in a vulnerable position) so she just "lies back and thinks of England" and hopes it will be over soon? These are all common scenarios in sexual assault cases and are often the scenarios where proving the sexual assault becomes difficult because the immediate response from the bloke is "I had no idea she wasn't consenting - she was definitely into it at first and she didn't say anything or do anything that suggested to me that she wasn't".

In these scenarios, she's not consenting (or at some point in time has stopped consenting) but she's also not doing a lot to convey that she isn't. Has consent been effectively withdrawn, or was it never given in the first place? How is the guy to tell the difference? Should he asking her if she's into it at every step of the way? If he doesn't, does he lack consent? That's where it gets grey. The law even recognises this grey area, in that it is not rape if the guy had a reasonable basis for believing that she was consenting (even if she actually wasn't).
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Very well put.

Some more info:

http://www.lawhandbook.org.au/handbook/ch04s03s03.php
 
LETSGOKANGAS said:
If he is guilty by all means throw the book at him. But is anyone else feeling as if Maj is the victim here?
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Nope. Rape is a very difficult area of law. Best to let the legal folk sort this out.
 
gokangas said:
Nope. Rape is a very difficult area of law. Best to let the legal folk sort this out.
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Spot on gokangas. It's just so hard in a media and information driven society to sit tight and let things play out slowly in court. So the next 9 or so months in the lead up to the trial will certainly have some trial-by-media moments which will help nobody but the media moguls who get to sell a bit more advertising space. I reckon the club will have some challenges to negotiate on this front, both internally and externally, in 2015.
 
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