NT Alice Springs: 2024 Curfew

[Sinjin Smith]

I don't mind financial help for those wanting assistance to set up businesses or other positive initiatives. this includes non-indigenous businesses in communities down on their luck, as these businesses become places of employment, training and motivation for the broader community.

I wouldn't waste money on drug and alcohol rehab. to stop taking drugs costs nothing other than making a decision.

Don't agree with the bolded. Rehab is vital to reducing addiction, whilst something has got to give(i.e restricting alcohol supply) addicts will turn to another form of substance to get their fix. Eons ago Dad and myself drove from Darwin to Melbourne and stopping at places like Tennant Creek, Alice etc aviation businesses have to pour money into securing AV gas and petrol.

Rehab infrastructure and services are vital, addicts need proper meds, support and medical staff with advanced knowledge of curing addiction. As a previous poster pointed out, its getting the right people to actually want to work there. Just stopping alcohol supply with no support is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Rob R]

Pay people enough money and give them bodyguards and they'll work in tough places. PNG and Congo still get foreign workers willing to go there. And I'm referring to government investment.

In PNG and Congo, the bodyguards don't get messed with because they have pretty relaxed rules about who they can shoot - which should never be allowed here. The guards would be on a hiding to nothing once it is realised they are powerless.

It isn't a new problem or just a Alice Springs problem, we used to give Truck drivers a list of towns that they were under no circumstances to stop in like Bourke as there would be theft and violence. On the other side of the coin, there were towns or communities that we told people to stop in and buy something as the elders had a very safe community running.

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[burge13]

Investing in indigenous businesses is great as long as those businesses actually spend money on indigenous staff or suppliers. We have seen a few govt contracts where they went to indigenous companies but except for the few owners all the staff were whomever they could find mostly cheap backpackers and short term migrants. It was a lot better when we went into remote areas but still a lot of money ended up with non indigenous staff and sub contractors.

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Im sure they tried to find the right staff initially tbf...

 

[Coolangatta]

With criminal negligence, directors could face jail time if staff were injured or killed. Adding to this "safe work environments" extend to mental health, which is obviously impacted if people don't feel they and their families are safe or even something as simple as sleeping well.

This just highlights how complex an issue becomes when things get out of control.

Boredom, drugs and alcohol, poor parenting, no leadership, no role models, no hope, health issues including brain damage prior to birth, poor diets, poor mental health...............where do you start?

The reality is the federal government has no role to play but rather fund and empower local and state governments. This is a grass roots issue.


One thing I would like to see is apprenticeships offered to 12yo kids or even younger (the age can be debated). If they aren't being fed properly, then school is a waste of time as they can't concentrate. If the parents waste money on booze and don't look after their kids, then kids need money to support themselves. Once kids learn to fend for themselves in a normal way (rather than having to steal for food), then we may have broken the cycle.

This is extreme for 2020s but we have to remember this is how it was in Oz and how it is in parts of the world today.

The cycle of failure can't be remedied at the parent level, this focus must be on the youth.

Very interesting idea and this is definitely thinking outside of the box. Unfortunately the only way for kids born into extreme poverty to get anywhere in life is to grow up fast and make a living for themselves. To me, privilege is when you don't have to do that until your late teens, early twenties, or thirties, but Indigenous kids broadly speaking don't have that luxury of time.

 

[Kram]

Need to catch kids early and to make sure we are getting them into school every day being educated, really should be a first port of call.

 

[Coolangatta]

Need to catch kids early and to make sure we are getting them into school every day being educated, really should be a first port of call.

I dunno, I hated school and I had a comfortable upbringing. I can't imagine how much more I would've hated school if I didn't. If they don't want to be educated, get them out of school early and into work. If they don't want to work then unfortunately it's something that's been instilled into them that's difficult to change. Successful indigenous people I've met all had one thing in common: role models or parental figures who drummed the importance of education into them.

 

[Power Raid]

Need to catch kids early and to make sure we are getting them into school every day being educated, really should be a first port of call.

In the Philippines we operated a mine in Abu Sayyaf territory. The people despite being colourful were self motivated.

They requested a school and a health facility. So we built them and provided breakfast and lunch for kids who turned up on time and clean (not that this was ever an issue). but setting standards is important to ensure "something doesn't come for nothing".

Long story short from a jurisdiction where one soldier or terrorist died per week, we have now gone ~10 years without incident and soldiers and former terrorists work side by side on a daily basis.

It is interesting to think terrorism is easier to fix than a community that has given up on life and turned to the booze or other.

 

[Power Raid]

I dunno, I hated school and I had a comfortable upbringing. I can't imagine how much more I would've hated school if I didn't. If they don't want to be educated, get them out of school early and into work. If they don't want to work then unfortunately it's something that's been instilled into them that's difficult to change. Successful indigenous people I've met all had one thing in common: role models or parental figures who drummed the importance of education into them.

I find it easy to work if there is a goal. Same said with study......why study if there is no hope or goal at the end.

I'd suggest teaching kids to be self motivated and self reliant is the key. They can always go back to study in time.

Perhaps think of this like an immigrant to Oz. They would simply work like dogs, as their english isn't up to speed and their previous training not recognised here, so the next generation benefits, gets a university degree and a real future. This is the sacrifice the first generation must make.

 

[Power Raid]

Don't agree with the bolded. Rehab is vital to reducing addiction, whilst something has got to give(i.e restricting alcohol supply) addicts will turn to another form of substance to get their fix. Eons ago Dad and myself drove from Darwin to Melbourne and stopping at places like Tennant Creek, Alice etc aviation businesses have to pour money into securing AV gas and petrol.

Rehab infrastructure and services are vital, addicts need proper meds, support and medical staff with advanced knowledge of curing addiction. As a previous poster pointed out, its getting the right people to actually want to work there. Just stopping alcohol supply with no support is a recipe for disaster.

I obviously take a different view on addiction

I'd rather have strong rules regarding driving whilst on substance, turning up to work on substance and other dangerous situations. Especially given employers face criminal negligence if some druggie hurts himself or others.

Note this is different to taking drugs and not driving and not turning up to work. I'm all for people letting their hair down in a safe environment.

I'd much rather have smorgas board clinics, 250km NE of Kalgoorlie, where druggies can go and consume as much as they like for free. There are two doors, one being a resting place for ever and the other rehab.

but I wouldn't offer services in the city as I don't believe those that risk others death or jail time should be operating in the community.

I also believe if the government had a "go as hard as you want, including death" policy, it would make wanna be druggies think twice.......a reverse phycology

 

[Power Raid]

Investing in indigenous businesses is great as long as those businesses actually spend money on indigenous staff or suppliers. We have seen a few govt contracts where they went to indigenous companies but except for the few owners all the staff were whomever they could find mostly cheap backpackers and short term migrants. It was a lot better when we went into remote areas but still a lot of money ended up with non indigenous staff and sub contractors.

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yep

and hiring indigenous people can bring about its own challenges, which can sometimes have employers giving up. This isn't a one way street though and employers need to consider the needs of indigenous employees.

Patients and understanding is key and in time this becomes mutual trust

 

[burge13]

yep

and hiring indigenous people can bring about its own challenges, which can sometimes have employers giving up. This isn't a one way street though and employers need to consider the needs of indigenous employees.

Patients and understanding is key and in time this becomes mutual trust

Key point. When a culture dictates you can just go offline for weeks at a time that isnt exactly conducive to working in 2023. Of course an employer is going to give up at some point...

I had an employee last year take 3 days bereavement then 2 weeks cultural leave (not indigenous but same point) for their grandma dying. When my grandma died i only got the 3 days bereavement for reference. But a business has to pay to cover those 2 weeks still. Its expensive. You cant blame an employer for thinking twice on this stuff and those that do dont run their own business, dont manage a budget, and/or dont see how easy it is to spend other peoples money...

Cultural differences can bring about great changes in work culture, performance etc but you're still there to work, show up on time and be reliable. That is the main KPI, if you cant, you cant complain at no promotion or being let go...

 

[QuietB]

Oppotunity, Bored youth with nothing to do.

And no its not "This government failed", Its not "oh recent goverments failed" It's generations of governments have failed and havent given a s**t

And this is the same with drug addicts, the long term unemployed, the poorly educated, etc.

We have shifted all their jobs offshore. We have closed all the trade schools and tech colleges and replaced it with bullshit private services. We have automated as many of their jobs as possible - think supermarkets, garbage collection, etc. we have privatised as many working class jobs as possible and imported cheap foreign labour for the rest. And then we wonder why there are social implications.

It is a fact that if you are a drug addict in this country, sure you might be lucky enough to eventually get help, and in a heavily compromised and broken system you might come out the other side, and then when you do you will find a country that has zero opportunities for you. There is no pathway and a whole bunch of grifters fleecing the government along the journey - because private is better

As a nation, we simply don’t give a heck.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

based on the elders view, the thing that destroyed their culture and society was "sit down" money. To identify the actual cause of the issue is important, otherwise by blaming unfair treatment and other REAL injustices may feel good but it doesn't resolve the issue.



the challenge from here is to somehow get communities motivated again. to somehow give people a reason to get up in the morning, to motivate people to engage and participate, to somehow get people eating well, sleeping well and not drinking.

this is a massive challenge as there is alcohol foetal syndrome, peer group pressure, a lack of opportunity and a lack of leaders.

the reality is it will take time and if we can create more and more leaders, in every next generation, we will close the gap. One thing that works is people putting themselves in "uncomfortable situations. We see the success of migrants to this country and succeeding with no contacts, language issues and cultural challenges.

Posted this two Prime Ministers ago and am yet to see any evidence of real change at the Federal level.

Welfare for work/work for the dole/mutual obligation in remote communities is a great idea that's been repeatedly screwed up by Government's of both stripes.

Labor's most recent "reforms" recognised work needed to be relevant and specialised to each community, but failed to put any effective structure on the ground, so you wound up with situations where 20 people were being paid to mow the same patch of lawn in the middle of town.

Then Abbott doubled down by cutting staff, then opening the gates to his corrupt private training mates; forcing locals to sign up for useless s**t like screen printing and sewing classes with no specialist staff to teach them on the ground (or worse, by correspondence), then cutting off welfare for people who recognised they were getting no long-term skills out of it and bailing out.

Programs need to be effectively supervised (yes, that does mean spending more money to get staff out to even the most remote communities) and specialised (things like cleaning up at the local art gallery, helping to care for sick relatives/community members need to be recognised. I've even seen men at Blackstone effectively deputised by local cops to help keep kids on the straight and narrow, rat out sly groggers and diffuse domestic violence situations - stuff that should definitely count towards their CDP obligations.)



Seriously, * off.

The idea that the Kimberley, Pilbara and NT squattocracy were being somehow benevolent by allowing local Aboriginals to work for food is one of the most utterly misleading myths people perpetuate. Conditions at places like Wave Hill (prior to the walk-off) and Landsdowne were arguably worse than a lot of the bottom rung of modern day communities.

That doesn't excuse Whitlam and Fraser for screwing the transition, but don't pretend these rich arseholes gave a s**t about anything more than an easily exploitable workforce - attitudes happily illustrated by the vile vote suppression campaigns they ran in the Kimberley in the 70s and 80s; trying to keep genuine reformers like Ernie Bridge out of office.

To be effective, policy in this area needs to be tailored and specialised to meet the unique needs of each individual community - an idea that's abhorred by shiny-arsed bureaucrats in Canberra, Perth or Darwin because it robs them of their ability to give themselves a powerpoint pat on the back for rolling out [X] plans across [Y] communities in [Z] months.

Saw these attitudes play out in practice last year over school attendance in the Kimberley, while you see the same mentality in how the NT Government handled the lapsing of Stronger Futures - rather than keeping the status quo in place and working through a meaningful management plan with each central desert community, it was "well, here's grog again - best of luck!"

 

[Rob R]

Im sure they tried to find the right staff initially tbf...

They certainly looked for the right staff....the right cheap foreign labour to maximise their profits.

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[cartwright]

Need to catch kids early and to make sure we are getting them into school every day being educated, really should be a first port of call.

I think this happens , but I’m not sure how - are there incentives to get kids to school …?

 

[Gough]

Start by increasing the dole, that might it least cut the crimes people are committing to survive.

 

[Power Raid]

Start by increasing the dole, that might it least cut the crimes people are committing to survive.

I agree we should increase the dole but that won't address this issue. In fact the dole, according to elders, is the reason (along with drugs and alcohol) why we see this mess.

Once they get sit down money they are no longer a crime risk. As those over 18 get the dole and can buy their booze and they peacefully sit under a tree but this means the kids aren't being looked after including being fed. Sadly it is not just booze but meth is becoming an issue (I saw this in Moora just this week).


What is happening here, in regards to the crime, is kids are being neglected and not fed. Thus they turn to crime to survive and feed themselves.......which is completely reasonable. I've seen this in the NT, Kal, northern WA and East Perth for two decades yet it is only being discussed by govt now. Pathetic!

The criminal activity normally happens in the evening and night, meaning they are too tired for school. Even if they do go to school they are hungry and can't concentrate.

There is no easy fix here but I would suggest trying something different and that is apprenticeships and pay from a very early age. This may mean their apprenticeship is slightly longer as they may need to do other more traditional classes.

Give kids breakfast, lunch and a take away pack for dinner if they turn up on time and clean. Give them other incentives where they are rewarded with benefits for their family, turning them into "providers" for the family. This turns them into value in the eyes of the family.

Give them skills so they can get jobs in the long run and paid from an early age.



The alternative is - 12-18yo committing crimes to survive
18-25 - on the dole preparing for a life of diabetes and other health issues
25-35 - diabetes, falling asleep again at 10.30am not because of alcohol or partying but diabetes, losing a leg
35+ - death

There isn't an age group capable of looking after a kid



The challenge with any solution is it needs to be respectful and lead to positive long term benefits. I would suggest paying kids, feeding them, providing them with tangible skills and lead to well paid jobs is not a bad idea.

 

[burge13]

Start by increasing the dole, that might it least cut the crimes people are committing to survive.

Yep really incentivising people to work giving out more even money for free.

How much do people think the dole should be? If its anywhere near an apprentice salary or something why would they work? They wont (arent as is). Clearly isnt the answer or even part of one

 

[South of the Yarra]

The problem is we are trying to educate Aboriginal kids in a Western system controlled by people who have no idea about Aboriginal education.

 

[South of the Yarra]

yep

and hiring indigenous people can bring about its own challenges, which can sometimes have employers giving up. This isn't a one way street though and employers need to consider the needs of indigenous employees.

Patients and understanding is key and in time this becomes mutual trust

What challenges can hiring Aboriginal people bring?

 

[South of the Yarra]

Investing in indigenous businesses is great as long as those businesses actually spend money on indigenous staff or suppliers. We have seen a few govt contracts where they went to indigenous companies but except for the few owners all the staff were whomever they could find mostly cheap backpackers and short term migrants. It was a lot better when we went into remote areas but still a lot of money ended up with non indigenous staff and sub contractors.

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Most Aboriginal business gladly spend money on Aboriginal staff and supplies. It is when Governments are involved it changes.

 

[Kram]

What challenges can hiring Aboriginal people bring?

The problem is we are trying to educate Aboriginal kids in a Western system controlled by people who have no idea about Aboriginal education.

Cultural differences as you mention here in education.

My sister has works in relief teaching at a school in Perth that cater specifically for indigenous children with a specifically tailored curriculum and she said it works very well. They even have a bus that goes around and picks kids up in the morning, has a higher attendance rate than the city wide average.

It may be this one.

School Overview Moorditj Noongar Community College

 

[Rob R]

Most Aboriginal business gladly spend money on Aboriginal staff and supplies. It is when Governments are involved it changes.

I think it varies alot in regional areas, the indigenous companies we work with in regional areas are amazing, create a lot of jobs, discuss options and do good quality work. We have problems mostly with the ones who run out of inner city offices but unfortunately for larger jobs even in remote areas we have to use them. As one of the elders we work with the NT said about one particular company we have to use, their owners are only indigenous when they are after contracts.

Please note that I am only talking from my experience and would defer to your thoughts as I believe you would have broader knowledge.

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[Baltimore Jack]

Dutton is on his way there as we speak.....nah, just kidding

 

[Power Raid]

What challenges can hiring Aboriginal people bring?

As per your post and Kram’s

this is no different to operating a business overseas and adjusting to different ways of doing things

But it takes time, learning and adapting