Live Event AMA: Transgender Player Kirsti Miller

[Carringbush2010]

Stop with this binary ******** of what you want to be normal. Ever since Kinsey's study in the 40's it has been well known that there is no normal for sexual preference.

Sexual preference has nothing to do with gender identity.

No, we don't need to find "the cause" - especially not here on a footy forum, using your sub standard research skills.

Arguing against 19th century thinking is not trolling. Pointing out your cowardice in stating your position is not trolling.

None of what you claim above is helpful, informative or transparent. You are intent on spreading misinformation, conflating transgenderism with a crime, and painting it as an issue that needs to be fixed.

It seems obvious to everyone else but you.

You're not even basing an argument, your words look like a salty toy throw and have zero substance behind them. They scream of " what about poor minority people?"

What about that kid on Friday night - Kyron McGuire? Yep that's right life is not fair and you need an epiphany and realize so.

The sentiment behind the "wish" is noble but it is not practical to appease a minority at the expense of a majority. Fact of the matter is that the majority of the population over the world are not transgender and the world by and large accommodates accordingly.

Unless of course you're in favour of advantages for people like Caster? Now I'm not saying that all male born females have an advantages over females but it is likely that most do.

You can cry all you like but the reality is practic (thankfully) still rules the world (although ever increasingly diminishing). It is obvious that you're an emotional reactive type as your posts glaringly display.

How about you grow up and consider the consequences of your wishes?

 

[megatiger]

Ever seen Silence of the Lambs?

If I did I have no memory of it

 

[Roobs321]

Ever seen Silence of the Lambs?

If you had seen it, you would remember Lecter's quote about his diagnosis of Bill as "transsexuals being very passive...Bill is not a real transsexual...[had] been rejected".

Yet morons continue to misconstrue what was otherwise a very progressive film about gender roles from a female point of view, through the perspective of a realistic woman FBI agent and the constant sense of leering men. Foster was incredible in a thematically rich film.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Don't try to debate Slartibartfest he is as intolerant as they come....full of his own ego and opinions
He doesn't have the capacity for logical common sense and is a holier than thou self righteous bigot who pontificates his warped views.

I consider him and others like him to be the new fascists who will use the law and any other means to silence others

Your still sooking after getting so abusive you received a holiday . Hahaha, have a little cry!

 

[Slartibartfast]

Hahaha....its quite easy

He is the new breed of so called SJW who believe they know better than others
Blinded by their own ego and arrogance they are the new intolerant bigots

Just dont tolerate fools

 

[kirsti]

 

[Carringbush2010]

Hi Kirsti, I hope I find you well. Hazard a guess you've read my posts on this subject.

As far as Caster is concerned she's not helping anyone's cause, clearly she has an advantage for obvious reasons.

I am going to be blunt and no one should take offence on my view. My view is one of practic and logic that's how I usually roll, seems to have worked well for the world to this point.

Everyone needs to remove their emotives.

While I get your frustrations and the sentiment is noble, it is not practical to accomodate male born females to compete in female competitions. Sure there'll be examples where there is no advantage as a result of being born male however there will also be so. Caster is a glaring example of the advantage she has being born male.

How does one determine if one has an advantage by being born male? And at what cost? Who bares that cost? The taxpayer? The individual? Would the individual be able to afford it? Would every individual to be determined be in favour of baring the expense? Would the taxpayer be in favour of baring it? The answers would be long and varied.

To ensure the equality of the level playing field these questions and more would need to be answered in each and every case.

There are so many steps to wade through to accommodate transgender athletes at the impractical for the majority.

This is a blunt reality and no it's not ideal but a reality none the less.

 

[Frank Gallagher]

Seems like a first world problem to me, be thankful medical science can help treat/cure your condition, what's more important having the treatment or playing sport? Life isn't fair sometimes.

 

[SunGirl89]

this video sums up my thoughts:

 

[Rob]

Great thread kirsti

I've read a lot of articles on Semenya over the past week or so, but the one thing lacking - especially from those critical of the IAAF - is this:

Most people generally accept that a line be drawn in elite professional sport between men and women. Now obviously there is a small proportion of the world's population that could have a claim to be placed on either side of that line. For intersex athletes in particular, what criteria should be applied to classify those people as to their gender eligibility? If not testosterone levels, then what?

Like I said, i've read plenty of articles saying the IAAF rules are racist, sexist, bigoted, whatever. But not one of them has suggested an alternative classification structure.
I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

[Smartest Brain]

Any reason biological women who transition to men aren't beating down the door in men's professional sports? Probably just a coincidence .

 

[Kappa]

How many pro female athletes actually want to compete against females who were born male? If i was a pro female athlete I would be strongly against it for many obvious reasons

 

[kirsti]

I give my views on the Caster Semenya / IAAF decision in this radio interview
https://audio.3cr.org.au/3cr/in-ya-face/2019/05/10/1600/201905101600_in-ya-face_64.mp3


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[Slartibartfast]

I give my views on the Caster Semenya / IAAF decision in this radio interview
https://audio.3cr.org.au/3cr/in-ya-face/2019/05/10/1600/201905101600_in-ya-face_64.mp3


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Thanks for your feedback Kirsti, very insightful and find that i turn to this thread for your thoughts when i struggle to understand what the realities are.

So interesting your point about testosterone has never been shown to improve performance.
Is this from a lack of studies looking at it or has there been studies to date just have not shown the positive effects of testosterone?

 

[SunGirl89]

So interesting your point about testosterone has never been shown to improve performance.
Is this from a lack of studies looking at it or has there been studies to date just have not shown the positive effects of testosterone?

Whatever the truth may be, testosterone is the main differentiator between the sexes.

I don't see myself listening to a 42 minute interview.

 

[kirsti]

Thanks for your feedback Kirsti, very insightful and find that i turn to this thread for your thoughts when i struggle to understand what the realities are.

So interesting your point about testosterone has never been shown to improve performance.
Is this from a lack of studies looking at it or has there been studies to date just have not shown the positive effects of testosterone?

Thank you I have enjoyed our many conversations also.

Testosterone determines speed and strength, Untrue, testosterone plays 200 key health roles in the human physiology separate of the sex of the body every single day. It is not based on volume testosterone. It is based on the combination of genes, receptors and chromosomes. There are 40,000 genes in the human physiology,100 different receptor types. When combined, creates infinite possibilities separate of the sex of the body. The IOC, WADA, IAAF or the AFL have never done the research; and they do not even have the right starting point. The only way this could work based on volume testosterone is if every athlete in the world was bio tested pre puberty and tested throughout their entire sporting career globally. So it is impossible. This type of research is completely unethical.

A receptor complex that is more sensitive to testosterone can also be seen as 'unfair'. A receptor complex that is less sensitive to testosterone needs more testosterone to function in a 'normal way', whereby lessening an athlete's testosterone can have negative health consequences, making sports participation eventually impossible, as body metabolic function slows down or even ceases due to lack of androgen stimulation.

Individual sensitivity to testosterone is not easy to determine, whereby creating an umbrella determination of hormone levels in sport is scientifically incorrect, unethical and potentially in breach of human rights law.

Testosterone; for XY chromosome individuals separate of sex of the body is the primary metabolic hormone. For XX chromosomes body not so, testosterone is the secondary anabolic hormone to HGH which is the primary. Nature has done this for the sole purpose of reproduction.

Androgens such as testosterone are understood to the primary driver for protein cell synthesis in the XY phenotype. In the XX phenotype, the equivalent primary driver is understood to be growth hormone, produced in the liver.

Protein cell synthesis is understood to be the process whereby the human body produces new red blood cells, muscles and ligament tissue.


As testosterone is the primary driver for protein cell synthesis in the XY phenotype, it is understood that somewhere between six and ten times the amount of testosterone is required by the XY phenotype compared to the XX phenotype to enable this process.

If you reduce endogenous testosterone to below what an athlete is accustomed to, there is a concern that protein cell synthesis could be affected.


Of course this will affect day to day health & sporting performance over time, as the physiology of the athlete concerned adjusts to new, lower levels of testosterone.



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[kirsti]

Whatever the truth may be, testosterone is the main differentiator between the sexes.

I don't see myself listening to a 42 minute interview.

Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post-competition setting’, found that 16.5% of the ‘male’ athletes had low testosterone levels, and 13.7% of the ‘females’ had high testosterone levels, ‘with complete overlap between the sexes’.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24593684/


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[kirsti]

Sports need to;
(1)Review and revise internal policies to embrace human rights;

(2) Launch awareness and education related to diversity of participants;

(3) Advocate for the establishment of standards and guidelines related to all athletes based in objective scientific research;

(4) Advocate for individualized Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUE) conducted by medical personnel with subject-matter expertise;



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[Sausages]

Very complex issue kirsti.

However, despite what I've said elsewhere in this thread, I shall come back and offer further thoughts.

Firstly, I think any analysis of the topic needs to be broadened beyond using testosterone levels as an indicator of anything beyond testosterone levels. As you've highlighted here and I have spent some time researching today, they are an unreliable way of assessing gender. Furthermore, as you are aware, there is nothing like consensus as to whether a person's naturally produced testosterone plays a significant role in athletic performance. What it DOES do though, is increase bone density and pelvic shape during puberty for males (from here). It also stimulates red blood cell production.

From that same article, the conclusion is that there is simply insufficient data to present a compelling case either way as regards the advantages or disadvantages for transitioned athletes. Given that, limiting the discussion to purely hormonal factors in disingenuous on behalf of all parties. I agree that the IOC/CAS ruling is broad, grounded more on public perception and satisfying external factors rather than individual assessments.

Having a look at Caster's record, I am unsure if she has ever identified as intersex/hyperandrogynous publicly. I do know the results of the 2009 report were leaked, but not having followed the whole saga closely, I cannot find a record of that occurring. She has seemingly maintained a line of "I was born this way and I am a female." Which is fair enough - but given we are currently uncertain of exactly what gender IS, then such a statement is of little worth.

Assessment of her athletics performance shows she is not the WR holder in either the 800m or the 1500m, her two specialisations. Indeed, her PB in the 1500m doesn't even rank in the top 25 performances for that event. Her 800m performance though, bears some further investigation.

The 800m WR is the longest standing track and field Olympic record, for either men or women, dating back to 1983. Set by Jarmila Kratochvilova, from the former Czechoslovakia which was at the time under Communist government. The time of 1.53:28 has been approached only twice since, once by Pamela Jelimo in 2008 and the other by Caster in 2018 - nobody else has even got close.

Kratochvilova's legacy is shrouded in the doping regimes common to many countries during the Cold War - I am dubious as to whether it was purely on the Communist side either, but that's neither here nor there. Published articles relating to the regime which Kratochvilova operated under don't explicitly link her to performance enhancing programs, but there is enough to suggest it was possibly the case, although she and her coach have always maintained that no such program affected her. Neither Kratochvilova nor Jelimo has ever had any doubts over their gender however.

Considering Caster, it appears that the IOC/CAS ruling is designed to reduce her chemistry to what they define as female. However, her status as an intersex female is the point of contention. Presuming that neither Kratochvilova nor Jelimo used performance enhancing substances (and neither one ever failed a drug test), one can then only assume that their performances were due to all of the things that are common in elite athletes...genetics, training, support etc. Given that Caster doesn't genetically equate as a female in a simple XX way, and accepting that it is understood genetics isn't the whole story as regards gender anyway, one then looks towards why she is excluded from participating as a female, in view of the failings of hormonal levels to adequately correlate to athletics performance.

She clearly does enjoy genetic advantages, as do many other elite athletes. She wasn't, evidently, born as an XX female as we presume Kratochvilova and Jelimo were. As mentioned earlier, Kratochvilova MAY have enjoyed performance enhancing programs, but with Jelimo there is currently no such uncertainty. This, of course, goes to the heart of the issue - why should one be excluded from sport based on genetics, when by definition, one's genetics is a factor in performance? If Jelimo is a Kenyan XX female with specific genetic adaptations to mark her as an outlier on the spectrum, why should Caster with her own genetic XY adaptations be excluded?

We enter the murky world of ethics. The IOC would, comparatively, be one of the least ethical organisations in existence, satisfying as it does many interest groups. The ever present need to commercialise sport is at the center of the whole argument - put simply, if Caster ADDED to the positive aspects of women's sport, then there would be less issue. But, given her specific baseline genetics of XY, that raises in the minds of the XX competitior that she isn't entitled to compete and this in turn gives the governing body a relatively simple decision to make - although, they are walking a tightrope of satisfying sporting integrity, competitor confidence and economics. Once you have ethics competing with economics, all bets are off - economics usually wins and this is precisely what is occurring here.

I am reminded of Daniel Tammet. Amongst his many gifts (numbers especially), one that stands out is his capacity to learn languages. He famously learnt Icelandic in a week, which, if you haven't seen the documentary on, is compelling viewing. This was done as he attempted to push the boundaries of his mind, culminating after 7 days learning the language from scratch, with appearing on a talk show in Iceland...no pressure!!

If there was an economic value on learning language in the same vein as there was in winning the Womens Olympic 800m, then he would surely be raking in the sponsorship dollars. I am sure he had offers to study at every University in the world...but he just went and did a BA through The Open University - not nearly as prestigious as many others. Which brings me back to Caster and her specific capacity to encourage understanding and, especially, evoke change in public attitudes for people considered to be otherwise beyond 'normal' spectrum.

It is my view that yes, Caster can probably continue to fight the good fight and possibly bring about changes to the way the IOC (and other sporting bodies as a result) classify the gender of athletes. But that might do so at the expense of other things, most notably in Caster's case, "normal spectrum", easily classified XX female athletes. And I'd be considering her reasons for doing so - is it simply to stand up for her rights and against discrimination, or is it to just be the best by any means necessary and reap the rewards? She needs to look at her contribution to herself, her gender identity and the sport as a whole and not simply say "I'm XY female and all you other XX chicks just have to hack coming second" when they can, somewhat justifiably, feel that she enjoys advantages not legally available to them and which are otherwise disputable as being part of fairness and equality. There is a possible genetic difference between endocrine profiles as pointed out in this article.

Kipchoge, the Kenyan marathon runner, would be terribly deflating to run against right now - every other marathon runner would line up against him and think...."I can't beat this guy, he's too good". But that assessment should be done athletically and not 'genderised'. Caster adds that level of uncertainty..."is she better than me because she just is, or is it because she is XY?" Caster's position as a genetic female is an extreme example of something (in this case, gender divisions in sport) not being in a position to easily, justifiably and defensibly classify. That doesn't automatically mean she is being discriminated against unfairly - it just means there needs to be more assessment done before the rules are changed.

In closing, potentially destroying the integrity of the sporting landscape for everyone, to satisfy inclusiveness for a few, isn't something which can or should be changed without there being a significant body of research to support it. And that research just isn't yet available. Reducing the arguments to human rights makes a mockery of that arena - it's a human right to have the opportunity to participate in sport and Caster can, as a female. It's not a human right to run the Womens 800m at the Olympics however. Likewise, using hormonal levels to satisfy the argument simplifies something which advocates of gender identity already acknowledge is more broad than just hormone levels. Neither of those adequately addresses the core dispute and continued usage possibly weaken the overall perception of the issues, which is something both sides need to be conscious of.

 

[TimmeT]

Sports need to;
(1)Review and revise internal policies to embrace human rights;

(2) Launch awareness and education related to diversity of participants;

(3) Advocate for the establishment of standards and guidelines related to all athletes based in objective scientific research;

(4) Advocate for individualized Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUE) conducted by medical personnel with subject-matter expertise;



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Why dioes discussion around human rights only ever seem to be instigated and/or considered as important when it is about the rights of the transsexual athlete? What about the human rights of birth females to compete fairly with other birth females?