Autopsy Autopsy. Just stop the game Gil. These fools are criminals.

[astrovic]

Burn the tape.

Two observations:

1. Our worst game so far coincided with having the least number of younger/less experienced players on the park. The lesson seems to be that the kids are ok.

2. The one positive for me was I got upset watching that. At least it's nice to feel something again, after last year. Means I have expectations again.

 

[shimaburnsgrieg]

But in the first 6 rounds we won’t have played a Hobart game, but still traveled 4 times.

In that same span of games, here are the times travelled by Vic sides including Reacher Round.

Carlton - 2
Collingwood - 2
Essendon - 1
Geelong - 2
Hawthorn - 4 (2 of their Tassie Home Games)
Melbourne - 3
Richmond - 2
St Kilda - 1
Western Bulldogs - 2

So not sure you can attribute Hobart to what is nothing more than being arseholed by the AFL.

Understand that but we are happy with the 5th Tassie game as well - helps to build the Tassie member base, the derby rivalry feel lol lol....

 

[HTPunter]

Never as good or as bad as it seems. But not a good day. Chom, Stevo, Phillips and Sheezel good.

Backline as bad as the midfield. Morons will blame Turner etc but this is structural. We know Clarko is a better teacher than Noble. These guys have a lot to learn.

Yeah man Turner is amazing, this was just a rare bad day out for him

 

[HTPunter]

Turner as a defensive forward fails because he offers nothing offensively. 7 goals in last 51 games.
His opponents can run off at will because they know he won't expose them at all the other way.
Which in turn makes them more dangerous because Turner is playing on them to shut them down...I think my brain just exploded.

No mate the reason we lost is structural, there isn’t a bad player on the list.

Turner plus buddies like Scott, Stephenson, Taylor, Corr, McDonald etc all perform every week, all are talented 2 way players and we have high expectations around here (we don’t expect just 1 or 2 good moments a game, we want four quarters), so don’t mistake it for a downtrodden supporter base misidentifying what is “good” after 4 miserable seasons.

Turner should hang around for a few more years yet, as soon as there is structure in the team under his 5th coach he will prove you wrong.

 

[HTPunter]

Hope Clarko gets the sack sooner rather than later, clearly not up to it.

Turner to captain coach.

 

[Ischenko]

Yeah man Turner is amazing, this was just a rare bad day out for him

The whole team had a shocker. Until we have another pressure forward who can play four quarters then Turner will play. He’s had good games this year, go back three pages in his thread lol. Paul Curtis should be straight back in but he alone isn’t enough for pressure in our F50.

When we surpass Kayne I will be as happy as anyone else to see him go. Until then, I will defend him from over the top criticism. He wasn’t great, but hey we lost by 13 goals, not many players were.

 

[guapo]

I’m trying to get my head around how the tall opposition forwards are killing us. Bulldogs in the practice match, Carlton and Brisbane have scored so easily. My thought is that Clarkson is telling them that we have to persist with the one game plan, no matter what, and that when we continually turn the ball over it becomes a nightmare. I would have thought that against Brisbane’s two marshmallows talls we would have insisted on tough man on man defence. Instead we had a zone defence that broke down continually.
I have belief in Clarkson but I’m concerned that our young players can only take so many hammerings before their enthusiasm drops away.
On a totally separate matter: Would LMac get a game at many other clubs?

No, LMac would struggle at most other clubs. Lots of desperation, no weapons, poor skill and even poorer footy nous.

We get flogged by mobile tall forwards because our key defenders aren’t capable defenders. They pay no respect to their opponent and allow ridiculous volumes of i50 uncontested marks. Sure, neither McKay or Logue played against Carlton, but yesterday was typical of what two above average mobile tall forwards will do to us every single time.

Lots of excitement in the off season trade thread about Logue coming to North. I got howled down for saying he wasn’t that good and wasn’t a $700k player. The first 5 rounds have not changed my opinion. He was the fourth ranked tall defender at Freo for a reason

 

[Snojet]

Yeah man Turner is amazing, this was just a rare bad day out for him

Turner’s only skill is in the backline as a specialist tagger.
Has shown,at times, that he can stick better than superglue.
That’s it!
He offers nothing else. A very ordinary kick. Not exceptionally fast. No creative flair.
A great trainer and club man, but that won’t win us a flag.

 

[HTPunter]

There's a few like him who actually derive pleasure from potting the club. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The ignore button is your friend

As we track for our 4th consecutive bottom 4 finish, I put it to you - what praise has the club earned?

Potting the club that loses 75% of matches every year is pretty much the only reasonable thing to do.

Less we start praising genuine C grade players for trying hard like the Turner fanboys.

Turnover of coaches leading from off field stability and lack of support, a playing group that conditionally buys in on effort, weak leadership, poor performance.

Undeniable, all 4 of those things. Ultimately the main one is poor performance. If you think this club has done anything worthy of praise bar hiring Clarkson in the last 4 years, you’re kiddding yourself.

 

[Ball Dont Lie]

If yesterday we swapped directly:

Howe, Shiels, Lmac, Corr, Turner, Goldie,

For

Bergman, goater, Perez, Bonar, Curtis, CCJ

We probably would have lost by 75 points.

If we played a man on man defensive structure we would have lost by 36.

We still would have had JZ, Cunnington and Greenwood over 30.

We all would be feeling much better this morning.

We could then be debating the merits of Taylor and Scott. We could be arguing on the viability of playing 2 rucks. We could be putting up trade suggestions for the clear gaps. Instead it just feels hopeless.

 

[HTPunter]

I just ask you all to think - if Kayne Turner

28

Kayne Turner

Age

28

Ht

180cm

Wt

71kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.3

3star

K

5.6

2star

HB

5.7

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.5

5star

MG

150.3

2star

No current season stats available

D

11.0

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

4.8

5star

played weekly for Essendon, after Essendon were coming off 17th, 18th, 18th results, would you compliment them for sticking tough with the “pressure” forward or would
You laugh hysterically at the horrid team selection?

Yeah, you know the answer. Same guys who think it’s hilarious Heppell gets a game are adamant Turner is a must

 

[Carey4life]

Turner as a defensive forward fails because he offers nothing offensively. 7 goals in last 51 games.
His opponents can run off at will because they know he won't expose them at all the other way.
Which in turn makes them more dangerous because Turner is playing on them to shut them down...I think my brain just exploded.

Wouldn't mind looking at getting Sam Lowson either...l still think Lazzaro could play the small forward role until Curtis improves and doesn't expect to get games after 1 good display in the VFL or Drury gets up to scratch. Curtis needs to know pressure will always be on him to perform..

I don't understand why we haven't tried this.

Turner out. Lazzaro in as the stop gap.

Seems pretty obvious. Lazzaro has the mentality and fitness to play the defensive role to the same level as Turner, surely. He has also shown he is more capable with ball in hand in his limited AFL games. Turner continuing to play is a real head scratcher for me ...

 

[zoomba23]

As we track for our 4th consecutive bottom 4 finish, I put it to you - what praise has the club earned?

Potting the club that loses 75% of matches every year is pretty much the only reasonable thing to do.

Less we start praising genuine C grade players for trying hard like the Turner fanboys.

Turnover of coaches leading from off field stability and lack of support, a playing group that conditionally buys in on effort, weak leadership, poor performance.

Undeniable, all 4 of those things. Ultimately the main one is poor performance. If you think this club has done anything worthy of praise bar hiring Clarkson in the last 4 years, you’re kiddding yourself.

Mate, if my point was a frisbee, it's soared right past you and gotten stuck in a nearby tree.

Where the * did I say the club was worthy of praise? If you went through my post history you wouldn't find much praise for the club. I've absolutely had my fair share of criticisms and melts. But... does that mean I get pleasure from criticising? Does it mean I pot them every chance I get? Does it mean I exclusively react to posts shrouded in negativity and involving sniping of people at the club? Does it mean I quietly tiptoe around positive results and then when a negative result comes along, I scream it loud and clear for all to hear?

We've had a s**t few years, absolutely. There are people who've been culpable in contributing to our shitness. But endlessly attacking them doesn't get us anywhere. One or two sniping comments, and you move on. Criticism where it's called for, and you move on.

If you're a self respecting North fan, you do not develop some sort of sadistic pleasure in having a go at all and sundry at the club. You don't ignore positive results because they don't fit your current mindset about where the club's at. These are the people I'm referring to, and these are the people who don't deserve to experience our next flag, whenever that may be

 

[Horace]

Disappointing as it was, lets not forget that yesterday was the first time Mckay, Logue and Corr played together. I have been looking forward to seeing how they would go in the same backline and it is fair to say that it was well below expectations. Unfortunately too often they all left their men when we had the ball and were moving forward, leaving at least one of Hipwood and Daniher and sometimes both, free to get on the end of our turnovers. And yesterday might well have been a world record for turnovers. However, it is just one day playing together. I am confident that they will eventually gel together and hopefully sooner rather than later.

Hopefully also we will reduce the number of turnovers. Turnovers cost teams goals and we had so many yesterday that we were bound to get thumped. Too often we had one too many handballs when a kick down the ground, would have been better, even if it had led to another turnover, because it would have just given a little bit more time for the defence to reset.

We need to look at this, as just 5 games into a new coaching and game plan era. By far yesterday was our worst performance of the year but it was also against one of the teams that at the beginning of the year, figured strongly as a premiership contender. They have been playing together for a while now and know one another's strengths and weaknesses far better than I think our team does. We need to be making judgements as to where we are placed, when we get well into the second half of the season. If we can win at least another 3 games this year, I for one will see this as progress. Hopefully more and we avoid the spoon, but still get a very good draft pick. Pity that Port Adelaide are 3 and 2 and looking like they will play finals.

 

[koshari]

Turner’s only skill is in the backline as a specialist tagger.
Has shown,at times, that he can stick better than superglue.
That’s it!
He offers nothing else. A very ordinary kick. Not exceptionally fast. No creative flair.
A great trainer and club man, but that won’t win us a flag.

yet we havnt been able in 6 years to recruit a player that offers more in that role? mahony was supposed to be the aire apparent. i agree with ishenko he ant great but hey who on the list is a better manic pressure forward/tagger? kyron was another who was a false dawn.

 

[Caracas]

Are you talking about Port? because there was an 86 point win in that run, and I'm not sure anyone is laughing as such, angry and hoping they finish as low as possible owing to the first round pick we will get off them

No, I’m talking about *, who’ve beaten us every single time since our legendary 2014 finals win.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Dirty_11]

McDonald is a goof, why did we make him captain in the first place? Should have let Simpkin have it on his own, or at least let Ziebell keep it with Simkin.

Not sure I have seen a footballer make the wrong decision with ball in hand more than this bloke.

On SM-F936B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Psychic Roo]

No, LMac would struggle at most other clubs. Lots of desperation, no weapons, poor skill and even poorer footy nous.

We get flogged by mobile tall forwards because our key defenders aren’t capable defenders. They pay no respect to their opponent and allow ridiculous volumes of i50 uncontested marks. Sure, neither McKay or Logue played against Carlton, but yesterday was typical of what two above average mobile tall forwards will do to us every single time.

Lots of excitement in the off season trade thread about Logue coming to North. I got howled down for saying he wasn’t that good and wasn’t a $700k player. The first 5 rounds have not changed my opinion. He was the fourth ranked tall defender at Freo for a reason

I think logue has been actually pretty good - mckay was very rusty. Was good last year. Not suited to be that far up the ground.
Any key defenders are going to be exposed in a team that pushes up that high and gets absolutely belted in midfield turnovers. Thats why clarkson supported birchall stratton and gibson et al. And the super veteran burgoyne.
They had No missed targets off hb and lots of third man in. We have hbs that turn it over with bad choices and poor skills and key backs getting isolated. Ziebell has turned that around - he hits targets. Lmac needs to have a good think about that. He needs to be going at 90% DE or close to it.
Not sure how well corr is going too. Was exposed in q1 badly. Doesnt offer much offensively either. Both McKay and logue can intercept. What does corr do? Now that he is the third tall defender which everyone called out last year. Needs to be the third man in.
Bergman needs to play as a distributor. Or goater for run. Really worried about mcdonald - not well suited to this system. He butchers it and rolls the dice too much. It exposes the others. Other teams let him get it and he kicks out poorly too much too.
I think howe shiels and turner are being played largely with the role of stabilising turnovers in midfield - problem is that howe and turner cause plenty. Shiels has been pretty good and mistake free which you need to be if you are a veteran being played over promising kids - I dont see what the other two add atm. The loss of TT hurts in many ways since he would really be ideal for this defensive system.

 

[Horizons_00]

Kane made the point this morning that we have conceded an enourmous amount of uncontested marks (particularly i50) the last 3 weeks (not just yesterday).

Not really sure if it was the case against Carlton, but it’s been a huge issue against Hawthorn and Brisbane.

Brisbane has 33 inside i50 marks for the game

We had a massive…. 9 i50 marks for the whole game

 

[rm3504]

Logue should remain at CHB, it's the others that need sorting out.

To your first point, ultimately, Goldy, Cunners, Shiels, Lmac, Turner, Howe, Greenwood, Ziebell and Corr can't all be playing in the same team. I'd say only a couple of those are even deserving of their spots based on form this year. Problem is, guys like Larkey, Taylor, Scott aren't setting the house on fire either (Larkey was good the first two but since...). That's 12 from today's team that probably should be fighting for two-three spots maximum. So much turnover and integration still needs to happen with this list.

Curtis, Bergman, Goater, and Wardlaw are four who you'd say absolutely come (back) into the team this season. Xerri started the first game so he's another. That's five younger blokes who look like they can be a part of the future and should actively be getting regular AFL games. After that, wh

The whole team had a shocker. Until we have another pressure forward who can play four quarters then Turner will play. He’s had good games this year, go back three pages in his thread lol. Paul Curtis should be straight back in but he alone isn’t enough for pressure in our F50.

When we surpass Kayne I will be as happy as anyone else to see him go. Until then, I will defend him from over the top criticism. He wasn’t great, but hey we lost by 13 goals, not many players were.

The team had a shocker cos it’s a shocking team
Old, mostly 24yo and over and not a lot of youth to hang your hat on
In 50 games time half this team will be retired or close to and posters will be saying it’s another 50 games after the next 50 to get those next incoming players up to speed

 

[Le Grille]

Disappointing as it was, lets not forget that yesterday was the first time Mckay, Logue and Corr played together. I have been looking forward to seeing how they would go in the same backline and it is fair to say that it was well below expectations. Unfortunately too often they all left their men when we had the ball and were moving forward, leaving at least one of Hipwood and Daniher and sometimes both, free to get on the end of our turnovers. And yesterday might well have been a world record for turnovers. However, it is just one day playing together. I am confident that they will eventually gel together and hopefully sooner rather than later.

Hopefully also we will reduce the number of turnovers. Turnovers cost teams goals and we had so many yesterday that we were bound to get thumped. Too often we had one too many handballs when a kick down the ground, would have been better, even if it had led to another turnover, because it would have just given a little bit more time for the defence to reset.

We need to look at this, as just 5 games into a new coaching and game plan era. By far yesterday was our worst performance of the year but it was also against one of the teams that at the beginning of the year, figured strongly as a premiership contender. They have been playing together for a while now and know one another's strengths and weaknesses far better than I think our team does. We need to be making judgements as to where we are placed, when we get well into the second half of the season. If we can win at least another 3 games this year, I for one will see this as progress. Hopefully more and we avoid the spoon, but still get a very good draft pick. Pity that Port Adelaide are 3 and 2 and looking like they will play finals.

This, im convinced the logue/mckay/corr setup will work once they build cohesion. Their attributes complement each other really well. Considering the amount of times the two brissy guys were unattended it indicates to me there is a plan and whilst we are probably 1-20% into developing it we are going to have and the coaching staff will accept the odd breakdown. I mean if they dont they would have gone man to man pretty quickly.

We are gonna get a touch up every now and then for good teams. When firing Brisbane are a good team. They are a top 4 side in my opinion.

Just remember how far back we are coming from.

Also, whilst goldy/cunners/sheils/greenwood/howe are in the team and bring the age up. Our key player are relatively young. The average age theory is a bit of a fallacy

 

[The Gotham Penguin]

I remember Clarko in his early days at Hawthorn left a young Zac Dawson on Anthony Rocca all day. It wasn't a fair fight and he was destroyed, bringing the whole team down with him. It was considered cruel at the time but Clarko defended it afterwards saying it was all about the long term development of the side. A couple of years later they won the flag (admittedly Dawson didn't play in the premiership but that's not the point).

The same Zac Dawson that was good enough to play in 4 grand finals and 180+ games?

I was there that day - it was all about a power struggle at board level. Clarkos way or the highway.Dawson was a pawn to make a point.

It took direct intervention from Jason Dunstall to prevent Clarkson being sacked after the game.

This Clarkson wonder-coach thing always baffled me.

He was gifted via draft on the list already:

Luke Hodge
Jarryd Roughead
Jordan Lewis
Lance Franklin
Trent Croad
Xavier Ellis
Shane Crawford
Chance Bateman
Mark Williams
Michael Osbourne
Robert Campbell
Sam Mitchell
Brad Sewell
Clinton Young
Grant Birchall
Brent Guerra
Stephen Gillham

All were at Hawthorn prior to Clarkson joining.

Before or in 2008 Hawks added via draft

Cyril Rioli
Brendan Whitecross
Stewart Dew
Ryan Sheonmakers
Liam Shiels
Luke Breust
Shane Savage

Hawthorn continually topped up via free agency or draft - Hale, Gibson, Lake,Burgoyne, Stratton, Puopolo, Dureya, Langford, Gunston, Brad Hill, Anderson, Sphanger, Ceglar,McEvoy etc etc

Point being : 95% of coaches could win a flag with that lot. Hawks won the draft lotto year after year - I doubt that run would EVER be replicated.

Clarko will do the best with what he has, but he can't turn the proverbial pigs ear into a silk purse.


As an outsider I can see your improvement - even if it's not as much as some would like.

The only sticking point is Clarkson himself - if things don't go his way, he is uncontrollable and counter-productive. It was very common knowledge at Hawthorn that Chris Fagan frequently put out spotfires and controlled Clarkson.

When Fagin left, things got ugly, including physically assaulting the CEO when he didn't get his own way.


Can he turn you around? - 100% - WITH the cattle to do it.

If not - then criticism will grow, and he doesn't take to that at all well.

A poisoned chalice is Alastair Clarkson.


Good luck for the rest of the season, a strong North is essential for the competition.

 

[SonofSamsquanch]

Not sure I have seen a footballer make the wrong decision with ball in hand more than this bloke.

On SM-F936B using BigFooty.com mobile app

His performance yesterday, and in several of the games this season was well below standard. LMac was OK against Freo, but against Bris he was truly awful. I'm unsure about his leadership qualities. I don't see it.

 

[Le Grille]

The team had a shocker cos it’s a shocking team
Old, mostly 24yo and over and not a lot of youth to hang your hat on
In 50 games time half this team will be retired or close to and posters will be saying it’s another 50 games after the next 50 to get those next incoming players up to speed

righto

24 yo is not old mate and as per my post above goldy/cunners/greenwood/howe/turner arent key players (at least havent been this season)

We do have a fair bit of youth

Sheez/Wardlaw/Phillips/Powell/Comben/Curtis/Goater/Bergman

led by

LDU/Simpkin/CZ/Larkey

Foot soldiers

Scott/Taylor

Its a good start... we will need to build though

 

[ChopChopDigDig]

Glad to see some posted bring reason to this thread. Many babies thrown out with the bathwater earlier in the thread.

Adding Sheeze and a new coach wasn't going to turn us around in one preseason. Further patience needed, and enjoying the odd win ain't bad either.

However, I'm hoping some changes will be made to give some kids a go ahead of some of our plodders. I'd much rather see Drury, Arch, Perez get a game if we're gonna get flogged anyway. Goater and Burgman needed a rest, but get them back in asap. Hell, I'd prefer to see Young, Mahoney, Laz and Spicer have a chance to show where they're at.

We've got too many 'old blokes' being carried at the moment. Cunners, JZ, JMac, Turner, Howe, Corr are almost non negotiables at this stage, and I'm not sure why.