Opinion Beams deal reviewed - incoming players (bumped, see post #672)

[noideaatall]

Jury is still out on the Harry for Varcoe deal. I think Harry would of been more effective last night than Varcoe would of. Effectively, we have Crisp and Varcoe for Harry, and De Goey and Greenwood for Beams and we are all even.

I didn't think that much of Varcoe performance last night, suspect he will build. Sad to lose HOB also, thought he showed a fair bit last year. That said I don't see them as a direct comparison. Harry was good at turning a contested situation into a win but not that great on delivery. Varcoe I see as a player with good decision making and able to deliver the ball decisively into the forward line. More a step up from Dwyer I hope. I think we need what Varcoe brings to the table over the next couple of years than what OB offered.

 

[DaVe86]

What i like is the fact that Greenwood, Crisp and De Goey all have defensive games whereas Beams was very limited in this area.

The tackling and defensive positioning of de goey was very impressive.

It gives our midfield more depth i reckon but short of star power short term.

I actually see broomhead tracking as the Beams replacement as an offensive goal kicking mid. He just doesnt win enough of the ball yet.

 

[TradeDraft]

We won’t know for at least 3 more Seasons.

I still think we got the Best Trade we Possibly could get under the Circumstances

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Calling it early....huge win for the Pies. It could be breakeven as early as this season and nothing but upside beyond that.

 

[Apex36]

Hesitant to call anything a win or a loss till we see how Beams performs for Brisbane. For all we know he could take another step up this season and become the leagues best mid.

On first impressions though, I'm pretty happy with DeGoey and Greenwood as compo. Still on the fence about Crisp, but he is showing some good signs.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

I think we need to seperate the two things:

1. We did not win the trade with Brisbane.
They got a young, near top-5mid, for pick 5, 25 and a bit part player who will struggle to get a game. (IMO). Crisp is also 3 years into the system - which makes you question why he took so long and could barely crack a game for a bottom-third team.
That is a steal for Brisbane.

2. Now we have done well to get Greenwood for 25, and early signs suggest pick 5 was used very well - but what we did AFTER getting those picks is not relevant, IMO, to the actual discussion about the Beams trade... Because there would always be a chance that we couldve gotten either of those guys for less than those two picks.

I agree that it has helped us plug holes... But that doesnt change how big a loss Beams is

 

[SizeMatters]

Karnezis and Crisp are both talented players. I'd have Crisp as a harder worker and better athlete but doesn't have the same natural talent and flair that PattyK has. Pat needs to work harder and improve his size but I think you lot have a great forward flank partnership on your hands. Both can push into midfield if required as well.

 

[Laurie Holden]

... Because there would always be a chance that we couldve gotten either of those guys for less than those two picks.

Sorry but I'm not picking up what you're putting down. How could we have gotten them for less?

 

[Apex36]

Because there would always be a chance that we couldve gotten either of those guys for less than those two picks.

Are you suggesting that we could have gotten DeGoey or Greenwood for cheaper than 5 and 25? How?

North flat out refused 30 for Greenwood and DeGoey would have been well and truly gone by 25 if we had passed on him at 5. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...

 

[Gymnorhina tibic]

Sure Beamer is a star, Levi is not as good but at least 70% the player, that means the two young lads only need to be collectively 30% the player Beams is for it to be a win win, I see more upside than that.

 

[Hardas]

Just said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here.

I actually think Greenwood will complement Swan and Pendles better than Beams. He'll obviously never be a better player than Beams, but I think the reason our midfield got so smashed last year despite high posessions by the trio is because all 3 of Swan, Pendles and Beams are effectively outside mids. Yeah they can win the inside ball, but ultimately, they're outsiders. Greenwood seems to relish being under the packs getting the s**t kicked out of him like Luke Ball did, which I think makes Swan and Pendlbury more EFFECTIVE midfielders. Not necessarily better, but more effective. I'm looking forward to seeing those 3 walk to the centre circle together, I think it's going to be a good combination.

If De Goey can get near to the A-level by the time Swanny fades, then we can call it about even, but a loss of some description, and Greenwood and Crisp become bonuses.

 

[Big Bryza]

I hope JDG smashes the living suitcase out of Beams in round 1. Going to be great to watch.

 

[Hardas]

De Goey showed why Hine liked him. Got a bit of a chubby, even though it was a praccy match. The kid showed the kind of hunger, skill & attitude that could make him a top liner.

I again with Ed, in that Greenwood will compliment the attacking play of Swan and Pendles all-round goodness more then Beams. No doubt, Beams is an out and out star and much better then Greenwood but we all recall those games where Beams, Pendles and Swan all got 30/40 possies, yet we still lost by 30/40 v Hawthorn.

I was surprised by Crisp. He's a massive show to start in rd 1.

The development of De Goey is where we'll see how we did out of this trade and that wont be known for 4/5 years. He definitely has the attributes.

Looks the goods, but.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I think we need to seperate the two things:

1. We did not win the trade with Brisbane.
They got a young, near top-5mid, for pick 5, 25 and a bit part player who will struggle to get a game. (IMO). Crisp is also 3 years into the system - which makes you question why he took so long and could barely crack a game for a bottom-third team.
That is a steal for Brisbane.

2. Now we have done well to get Greenwood for 25, and early signs suggest pick 5 was used very well - but what we did AFTER getting those picks is not relevant, IMO, to the actual discussion about the Beams trade... Because there would always be a chance that we couldve gotten either of those guys for less than those two picks.

I agree that it has helped us plug holes... But that doesnt change how big a loss Beams is

No one is saying Beams isn't a loss though. Of course he is. But most are saying that the deal we got was as good as we could have possibly done from a position of weakness (which we were).

De Goey looks like he could be anything, Greenwood should complement Pendles and Swan arguably BETTER than Beams did and Crisp looks to be at least a decent starting 22 contributor. I don't see how can be upset with the outcome.

Let's not forget, Beams' form could drop off a cliff. Was Beams as good as he was because he had 2 of the 5 best mids in the AFL protecting him and taking attention away from him? Food for thought.

 

[DNine]

I find that the general thoughts about Collingwood are always quite positive, but then you get onto the chat boards, and there is so many negative people out there saying how we are not on the right track, and how we are going in the wrong direction.

I liked Beams, but I know that there was quite a few games when I thought "Gee Beams hasn't been much chop tonight or today".

On average he gets two more possessions than Greenwood, and he is only 68% effective, which is 462nd in the league. If we want to clean up our teams disposal efficiency, Beams was a example of a poor deliverer. AND he can't be excused like someone like Dangerfield, being an insider, which is prone to poor disposal due to hard in close pressure. Greenwood, an insider is 66% effective, so not too far away, and he can be more excused.

De Goey, by Beams age now, will be better than Beams is. I am backing that as a surety. Crisp will play most games this year, I bet.

 

[TradeDraft]

Going to be hard to say definitively until all their careers are ended really. Even then it may be a difficult comparison between, say, one player's quality input now and three different players over the next decade. I'm with ShpeshalEd, that extra inside grunt and big body of Greenwood maybe huge for us. It is a critical factor we have been short of right back to 2011.

Also has good Defensive Side to his Game as well as Crisp and De Goey also have

 

[TradeDraft]

I didn't think that much of Varcoe performance last night, suspect he will build. Sad to lose HOB also, thought he showed a fair bit last year. That said I don't see them as a direct comparison. Harry was good at turning a contested situation into a win but not that great on delivery. Varcoe I see as a player with good decision making and able to deliver the ball decisively into the forward line. More a step up from Dwyer I hope. I think we need what Varcoe brings to the table over the next couple of years than what OB offered.

I did not mind Varcoe’s game.Used the Ball well instead of Long Bombs Lumumba use to do

 

[TradeDraft]

Are you suggesting that we could have gotten DeGoey or Greenwood for cheaper than 5 and 25? How?

North flat out refused 30 for Greenwood and DeGoey would have been well and truly gone by 25 if we had passed on him at 5. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...

De Goey would been Picked by Geelong at 10 IF he was there

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

I think it's good it happened in retrospect.

Beams was sliding in 2014 and instead we get a major potential x factor high end talent, a big reliable body in the midfield and a player that Hine had his sights on for a few years.

By Beam's sliding I mean, I got a bit sick of him doing the exact same thing his brother does - the quick no-look snap from the middle of the pack to nowhere. His two way running was a bit of a joke too. I enjoyed Beam's goals from the midfield though, that was one thing he was particularly good at....however after seeing DeGoey imitating Dane Swan or a young Buckley and burning Mitchell to deliver that ball to one of our forwards on the lead - Beams is all a distant memory now!

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Are you suggesting that we could have gotten DeGoey or Greenwood for cheaper than 5 and 25? How?

North flat out refused 30 for Greenwood and DeGoey would have been well and truly gone by 25 if we had passed on him at 5. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...

Yeah maybe Greenwood was a bad call - with him I was thinking more along the lines of taking a risk in the PSD, or wait a year and try to get him in free agency. (which we would've had the luxury to wait for if we still had Beams). I

As for De-Goey.
He was often listed as a 10-15 prospect. Obviously Hine rated him highly and was willing to use Pick 5 on him (which hopefully time will show was a very good call) - but that doesn't mean that any other club rated him that highly. We could very easily have traded up to the 10-15 range without having to lose a player of Beams' quality.
---

Look, I am happy with how the club has ended up following the trade/draft period - and I think we have done very well to get compensation for the loss of Beams - but that has more to do with the quality of our scouting, and not to do with the return we got in the actual trade.

 

[Apex36]

Yeah maybe Greenwood was a bad call - with him I was thinking more along the lines of taking a risk in the PSD, or wait a year and try to get him in free agency. (which we would've had the luxury to wait for if we still had Beams). I

As for De-Goey.
He was often listed as a 10-15 prospect. Obviously Hine rated him highly and was willing to use Pick 5 on him (which hopefully time will show was a very good call) - but that doesn't mean that any other club rated him that highly. We could very easily have traded up to the 10-15 range without having to lose a player of Beams' quality.
---

Look, I am happy with how the club has ended up following the trade/draft period - and I think we have done very well to get compensation for the loss of Beams - but that has more to do with the quality of our scouting, and not to do with the return we got in the actual trade.

Whether or not we could have gotten De Goey without losing Beams is kind of irrelevant given that Beams was going anyway.

He may or may not have been available in the 10-15 range (as Dave mentioned, there was a strong rumour that Wells from Geelong was heavily in to him at 10), but the fact is that Hine rated him highly enough to warrant picking him at 5.

Last time Hine reached for a player at 5 and people questioned his wisdom, we got Pendlebury. I've learned in the last decade that questioning our scouting and recruiting while Derek Hine is in charge is the best way to set yourself up for embarrassment.

 

[Bay Pie]

As for De-Goey.
He was often listed as a 10-15 prospect. Obviously Hine rated him highly and was willing to use Pick 5 on him (which hopefully time will show was a very good call) - but that doesn't mean that any other club rated him that highly. We could very easily have traded up to the 10-15 range without having to lose a player of Beams' quality.

I recall in 2005, we also 'reached' with pick 5, for a guy rated in the teens by most so called experts. In fact, I believe WCE were the only other club interested in him as a 1st rounder.

We just have to trust Hine on this one. JDG has made a good start with some great early signs.

 

[noideaatall]

I did not mind Varcoe’s game.Used the Ball well instead of Long Bombs Lumumba use to do

Spot on with ball use. I thought he was a bit timid or a bit weak in the contested ball, particularly a play their second quarter when the ball was centred to him I hink. I just think or expect him to be a whole lot more.

 

[HappyRed]

Thought BK was ok will be a part of our future and become a decent player in time.

I hope so.

 

[doppleganger]

I don't think Greenwood should be included.

Beams leaving was not crucial in us getting Greenwood, if Beams stayed we would still have made a play for Greenwood and reckon North would hv had to settle for our 2nd round pick with perhaps later rd swaps.

Having Beams and Greenwood on the list would have been interesting