Big defender aka where various journos do research but fail to acknowledge sources...

[Brant]

Re: Big defender

Your on the money there Brant.

Would love to see in 2 years time Schoey and Rough alternating between CHF and CHB as swingmen. Give Schoey a prolonged period up forward to get his confidence back first, then give him a game or half a game down back in a few months time while he's confident and when the opponent is more suitable for him.

We hear of players learning how to become better forwards by gaining experience playing as defenders all the time, wouldn't the opposite also apply?

I'm convinced he would be a better player for it.

I actually think that he can play CHB effectively now, if Roughy plays at FB (takes big FF) & he gets either of Gibson or Stratton (or Boumann/Gilham) to assist him when inside 50m. He is good enough on the rebound that we can afford for him to be rag-dolled, so long as it's outside about 60m.

People criticise his decision making in close. I often think he gets in these binds when he has to transition from defence to attack. For example, when he has been chasing or wrestling an opponent & we win the ball & he suddenly ends up with it in his hands; then he seems to have to re-set his thinking from defence to attack. When in space in defence & with the ball his run & kick is a weapon - no doubt about it.

I think that his game needs to be simplified a bit & that simplification will come from either being assisted more in defence (by a 3rd tall); or, by being sent forward & told to hunt the ball & kick goals.

 

[BobHawk]

Re: Big defender

Bring on the ruffster at CHB!

The elephant in the room. Clarko might need some convincing but am sure JD and co will be able to talk him into it. Doesn't seem any other way forward (no pun intended) at this stage. Surely, can't experiment with Boumann (1 game player) if we are to make a run at the flag. Still needs to be given opportunities to develop depending on who we play.

 

[Thaihawk]

Re: Big defender

When I saw what the weather was like in Melbourne, I thought Hale may have been replaced by Hill, who would then be the sub.

As for Pods and (that Geelong forward I don't like, they killed us today. I cannot understand why Roughy wasn't moved back, and Shoe forward.

Incidently are there any Big KPBs on the open market at the end of the year?

 

[randall boner]

Re: Big defender

I doubt we can win a flag with our mentally fragile playing group, but moving roughead to defense is our only possibly chance. I'm convinced that after today the Clarkson will finally give in and give us what we've been wanting to see for years.

Bet he doesn't and it will cost us a flag.

 

[Pessimistic]

Re: Big defender

Rough spent a significant amount of time back as spare man today.

He might need a couple of games before hes as dynamic as we all hope

 

[mrcurly]

Re: Big defender

Some of you guys don't watch enough football it seems. Lets see in dream world lets get Luke Mcpharlin to the team. He is the defender we are missing oh no wait Hawkins rag dolled him as well just a week ago and had he kicked striaghter could have kicked 6. Lets face it hawkins with his confidence is now showing why he was touted as a top ten pick up in his youth for guess what being bigger than all the other kids. It wasn't too long ago that everyone including Geelong supporters wrote him off. Impatience seems to be a common denominator with all supporters instant gratification from KPs or they are potatoes. Schoey was defeated today and ragged doll today the fact is you will see many a defender struggle against hawkins this year bookmark it. Schoey needs time just like hawkins and Hawthorn i hope will be as patient with him as Geelong were with Hawkins

Roughy does need to play defence for the games that he is needed. It should be horses for courses

Interesting comparison 4P. The main difference being that Hawkins made a big impact when he first came into the Geelong side, is built like a monster and has hands bigger than Stewie Lowe. He was always a tough physical presence and a strong mark, it was his awareness and ability to finish that were poor. Over the past 12 months he has obviously learned how to kick straight(er), become more consistent, and uses the ball far better - he now looks like a top shelf CHF.

By comparison Shoeys has looked at best serviceable, he had a big game against Cloke a few seasons back but other than that i cannot recall him really imposing himself on a contest (perhaps a game against Melbourne way back?). I think Hawthorn has already shown plenty of faith in him, and IMO after the past couple of games he would be better served regaining some confidence and composure back in the twos.

Also with Roughead back in the side, and Hodge, Puopolo and Shiels to come, i can see some tough changes required to squeeze the best group of players back into the seniors.

 

[Mitchemx]

Re: Big defender

Interesting comparison 4P. The main difference being that Hawkins made a big impact when he first came into the Geelong side, is built like a monster and has hands bigger than Stewie Lowe. He was always a tough physical presence and a strong mark, it was his awareness and ability to finish that were poor. Over the past 12 months he has obviously learned how to kick straight(er), become more consistent, and uses the ball far better - he now looks like a top shelf CHF.

By comparison Shoeys has looked at best serviceable, he had a big game against Cloke a few seasons back but other than that i cannot recall him really imposing himself on a contest (perhaps a game against Melbourne way back?). I think Hawthorn has already shown plenty of faith in him, and IMO after the past couple of games he would be better served regaining some confidence and composure back in the twos.

Also with Roughead back in the side, and Hodge, Puopolo and Shiels to come, i can see some tough changes required to squeeze the best group of players back into the seniors.

Shoey for mine is probably the one player in our side that has been getting a game on potential rather then actually earning it. I don't see what playing him out of position and out of form can be doing for his confidence.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Re: Big defender

Interesting comparison 4P. The main difference being that Hawkins made a big impact when he first came into the Geelong side, is built like a monster and has hands bigger than Stewie Lowe. He was always a tough physical presence and a strong mark, it was his awareness and ability to finish that were poor. Over the past 12 months he has obviously learned how to kick straight(er), become more consistent, and uses the ball far better - he now looks like a top shelf CHF.

By comparison Shoeys has looked at best serviceable, he had a big game against Cloke a few seasons back but other than that i cannot recall him really imposing himself on a contest (perhaps a game against Melbourne way back?). I think Hawthorn has already shown plenty of faith in him, and IMO after the past couple of games he would be better served regaining some confidence and composure back in the twos.

Also with Roughead back in the side, and Hodge, Puopolo and Shiels to come, i can see some tough changes required to squeeze the best group of players back into the seniors.

Mate i will just say one thing hawkins is either 24 or closing on 24 when he was schoey's age Geelong supporters were calling for his head he was a hack and would never make it etc etc. Maybe schoey will end at box hill who knows but the amount of supporters on here saying he is no good and can't play etc etc its all a familiar tune mate

 

[_Me_]

Re: Big defender

Mate i will just say one thing hawkins is either 24 or closing on 24 when he was schoey's age Geelong supporters were calling for his head he was a hack and would never make it etc etc. Maybe schoey will end at box hill who knows but the amount of supporters on here saying he is no good and can't play etc etc its all a familiar tune mate

sorry to interrupt, but if schoenmakers was on our third tall we would not be talking about him

hawkins had mooney taking the heat for a few years - hawkins last year got the bullet and responded

gibson is just too short to be what the hawks really need

it worries me how much work roughie is doing after an achilles

goodluck next week against the crows

 

[TheFourPillars]

Re: Big defender

sorry to interrupt, but if schoenmakers was on our third tall we would not be talking about him

hawkins had mooney taking the heat for a few years - hawkins last year got the bullet and responded

gibson is just too short to be what the hawks really need

it worries me how much work roughie is doing after an achilles

goodluck next week against the crows

Good point and even then he was being criticised for not playing well was young hawkins. We need roughie back when we are playing the big forwards i think or atleast until Gilham comes back.

Mate if your fit your fit there is no place to hide on the footy field. Roughie will do what he needs to do on the field. Good game btw as always Good luck to you guys next week.

 

[mrcurly]

Re: Big defender

Mate i will just say one thing hawkins is either 24 or closing on 24 when he was schoey's age Geelong supporters were calling for his head he was a hack and would never make it etc etc. Maybe schoey will end at box hill who knows but the amount of supporters on here saying he is no good and can't play etc etc its all a familiar tune mate

I know what you are saying, but not too sure it applies to Shoey, I'm not saying he cannot play - just that IMO he is not the best choice at CHB.

Hawkins showed plenty of flashes of brilliance in his early games, just failed to show consistency, and didn't work too well in the Geelong forward line with Mooney. After a couple of seasons in and out of the side he became a regular contributor.

I guess the difference with Shoey playing as a tall KP defender is its more than perseverance, experience and gametime. He needs to improve his standard, to provide a stronger contest for the 50/50 ball, either by spoiling or marking, or he will continue to be put to the sword against quality opposition. His performances now are being judged on those attributes, and against quality strong forwards he is severely lacking.

He is now into his fourth season - will he get better? probably yes, but can we afford to have him wearing L plates at CHB if we are having a tilt at the '12 premiership - i doubt it. The only other strong bodied KPP on the list is Roughead, i think the experiment should begin.

On the positive side it is good to see areas that need to be improved so early in the season.

 

[Bosk]

Re: Big defender

Jason, you are peeing into the wind there will always be those on this board who will seek any excuse on why we lost the game without facing up to the fact that our back line is simply too small, too short, too weak and ineffectual in the face of a determined opposition.

The philosophy of short and light defenders coming out of defence with pinpoint passing instead of big defenders who can MARK and contest against big forwards will probably culminate in the most frustratingly wasted five years that any team could experience during their “window of opportunity”. To play to Clarko’s philosophy the player needs the ball in his hand and time for accurate disposal. If he can’t mark it or win it on the ground then how is he going to get the ball – an act of God?

And ,it is not just our defenders who are hopelessly mismatched in the air, it is also our complete inability to take contested marks around the ground and then add to that the inability of our forward line to take contested marks and our cause is close to hopeless.

Take a contested mark and you own the bloody ball. You can slow down the play, play on, if loose options are not available, kick to player/players who can take a mark. By continuously forcing the ball to the ground, we are placing continuous pressure on our midfield. If our mids do not win the contested melee then so many will blame them. Hey, the fault lies with the fact that we have nobody who can pluck the ball out of the air.

It does not really matter what posters think. It is what Clarkson thinks that matters and whilst he persists with the current model, disaster is the most likely outcome.

Great post Lord Mud.

Clarkson's choice of smaller, quicker defenders worked brilliantly for the club when we were the only ones using the zone and opposing teams didn't know how to play against it.

Fast forward to today and I can only assume by the fact that we haven't gone out and traded for a 'gorilla' defender that Clarkson doesn't feel we need one.
Well, based on what I saw today (virtually a carbon copy of last year's final against Geelong) I would have to disagree with him. Emphatically.

It's also been painfully obvious over the last few years that our team can't take a contested mark inside 50 if it's life depends on it, let alone take a contested mark inside 50 when the game is up for grabs and we desperately need one! (and ironically this is usually when our mids bomb it long the most)

There's little doubt we have an awful lot of talent in this team, and I think most of our best 22 are sufficiently courageous & tough enough for us contest another premiership.

Like you though, I'm concerned that there are worrying signs and that perhaps under the surface little has changed since last year and the year before.
Right now I feel like Collingwood & Geelong are vastly better organized sides than ours, and that we are relying too much on individual brilliance from Rioli, Mitchell & Franklin to get us over the line. As good as they are, they can't do it every week.

 

[Bosk]

Re: Big defender

I agree that Shoenmakers may become a very useful player for us in future. After all his build is excellent, he is fairly mobile for a big bloke and his kicking (when not unduly affected by his brain) is extremely accurate.

The point is that our window is open now, and we need a solution to handle Geelong's 'gorilla' forwards NOW.
I don't really give two shits if Shoenmakers wins the B&F, the Brownlow and the Norm Smith two or three years from now, I care about how capable he is to hold his own against blokes like Cloke, Pods & Hawkins right now.


Simply put, we CANNOT allow Pods & Hawkins to run rampant as they have in our last two meetings against the Cats and expect to win.
Luckily we meet them in round 19 so we'll have another chance to tinker with our gameplan, and I'm sure Geelong won't lie down to lull us in a false sense of security (while saving themselves for the finals) because they'll be desperate to keep their little streak against us going.

Bottom line though, if we play Geelong in the finals -and its a very good chance we will- we better bloody not be going into the game with nothing better than a faint hope that Shonenmakers can hold his own.
Benjamin Frankin said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."

 

[King Elvis]

Re: Big defender

[/B]

I'm convinced he would be a better player for it.

I actually think that he can play CHB effectively now, if Roughy plays at FB (takes big FF) & he gets either of Gibson or Stratton (or Boumann/Gilham) to assist him when inside 50m. He is good enough on the rebound that we can afford for him to be rag-dolled, so long as it's outside about 60m.

People criticise his decision making in close. I often think he gets in these binds when he has to transition from defence to attack. For example, when he has been chasing or wrestling an opponent & we win the ball & he suddenly ends up with it in his hands; then he seems to have to re-set his thinking from defence to attack. When in space in defence & with the ball his run & kick is a weapon - no doubt about it.

I think that his game needs to be simplified a bit & that simplification will come from either being assisted more in defence (by a 3rd tall); or, by being sent forward & told to hunt the ball & kick goals.

Strong post.

Roughy has to be trialled back there; no valid to at least experiment with it.

I assumed that's why you guys stole Gunston from us

 

[Rioli magic]

Re: Big defender

I think it's pretty obvious what Schoenemakers main issue is, and it's the same one every player has when they start. It's got nothing to do with talent/ability etc, Schoenemaker has all the tools to become a very good CHB, but until he truly believes he belongs out there and is better than his opponents it won't happen. Looking from the outside and the few snippets I have heard suggests he has the right attitude to his footy, and I suspect this is why he will be persisted with, patiently, waiting (hoping) for it to sink in/click.

 

[Roby]

Re: Big defender

We have given up Pedersen, Lisle, Markovic, who are all better than Schoenmakers at the moment. We didn't recruit Mirra but took Boumann. Another bonehead move. I doubt Mirra would have more than a couple of goals kicked on him today. We would've won by several goals.

Gilham surely has to come in when he is fit.

I think Schoenmakers can still be a good player, and needs time. But Hawthorn is about now. We need to win the premiership this year or another missed opportunity goes by.

In the meantime Roughhead can play there, and we can bring several other good depth players. Not really fair some players are not getting a game who deserve it way more than Schoenmakers.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Re: Big defender

we need to throw one of these at a 100kg+ 24yo+ 195cm+ KPD in the next tradeweek.

our team is strong fundamentally (bar ruck and KPD) and our window is open. package up the draft picks/young players and gamble now on someone with a proven track record for the next 3 years.

roughie is too mobile and capable in the ruck now. we need someone who can just hold his own under a high ball.

 

[PottSie2]

Re: Big defender

we need to throw one of these at a 100kg+ 24yo+ 195cm+ KPD in the next tradeweek.

our team is strong fundamentally (bar ruck and KPD) and our window is open. package up the draft picks/young players and gamble now on someone with a proven track record for the next 3 years.

roughie is too mobile and capable in the ruck now. we need someone who can just hold his own under a high ball.

Jordan Lisle

People will say "But he can't get a game at Brisbane". Well on current form, neither would Shoenmakers, and Lisle has him covered for height, weight, speed and smarts.

 

[MC_9]

Re: Big defender

I am amazed that people think Bouman is the answer. The guy would have been absolutely man handled against Pods and Hawk.

The Answer is just painfully obvious now, however im not sure Clarkson will make the change.

We MUST play Roughead back. Lets either Shoey up field to a half forward position (which he has all the tools to play successfully), or send him to the twos.

I would be so happy to see us line up like this next week.

FB: Stratton - Roughead - Guerra
HB: Birchall - Gibson - Suckling

HF: Shoenmakers - Franklin - Rioli
FF: Gunston - Hale - Puopulo

 

[kolchak]

Re: Big defender

Bouman played quite well against Collingwood defensively, thought he was unlucky to get a couple of frees paid against him. Whilst Shoenmakers was completely outplayed. But he got loose a few times and kicked some nice passes, Cloke couldn't kick a goal to save himself and everyone was praising Shoey and denouncing the nay sayers. Shoey, LONG WAY TO GO.

 

[Dixie Flatline]

Re: Big defender

We have given up Pedersen, Lisle, Markovic, who are all better than Schoenmakers at the moment. We didn't recruit Mirra but took Boumann. Another bonehead move. I doubt Mirra would have more than a couple of goals kicked on him today. We would've won by several goals.

Gilham surely has to come in when he is fit.

I think Schoenmakers can still be a good player, and needs time. But Hawthorn is about now. We need to win the premiership this year or another missed opportunity goes by.

In the meantime Roughhead can play there, and we can bring several other good depth players. Not really fair some players are not getting a game who deserve it way more than Schoenmakers.

Pedersen can't crack a game for North Melbourne so far this year and has been more effective up forward than as a defender for North Melbourne when he has played. Ditto with Lisle and Brisbane - seeing Lisle play at Box Hill last year, the club did really well to essentially flip Lisle for Gunston during trade week. Markovic is being beaten as badly as Shoenmakers is when he plays on the monster forwards (Josh Kennedy took Markovic to the cleaners in round 1).

I don't see how any of those guys would offer a better game than Schoenmakers who was beaten by a physically stronger unit and didn't receive any assistance from his teammates in combating Hawkins.

I don't think it's fair to single out Schoenmakers as the reason why Hawthorn lost yesterday. Gibson struggled to contain Podsiadly, we were beaten badly at times in the midfield and our forwards failed to take their chances when they were presented.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Re: Big defender

Jordan Lisle

People will say "But he can't get a game at Brisbane". Well on current form, neither would Shoenmakers, and Lisle has him covered for height, weight, speed and smarts.

What are you basing this on? Your intuition? because the FACTS say otherwise. Jordan's athletic ability falls well short of Schoeys. If you point to the collingwood game last year as your evidence then you are making gross generalisations. Schoey has lisle covered in the football department he is just playing out of his weight divsion currently needs another pre season at least till he gets to Hawkins age of 24

 

[PottSie2]

Re: Big defender

What are you basing this on? Your intuition? because the FACTS say otherwise. Jordan's athletic ability falls well short of Schoeys. If you point to the collingwood game last year as your evidence then you are making gross generalisations. Schoey has lisle covered in the football department he is just playing out of his weight divsion currently needs another pre season at least till he gets to Hawkins age of 24

This forum is all about gross generalisations. When it comes to skill, placement, smarts and how players play, it's all subjective. Just look at how quick this board is to defend certain players, but quite easily write off others after only a handful of games.

For 3 years now we've been defending defenders based on them not being big enough, or not playing them in their right position. For 3 years now we've been searching for a big defender, and last year we get rid of a potential one, who in 5 appearances, did enough to suggest that he'd be worth persisting with.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[Hawks1994]

Re: Big defender

Don't just blame Schoey. Gibson was terrible, Stratton was pretty bad. Pods, Hawkins and Johnson kicked 11 of their 14 goals. There were some pretty pathetic attempts at manning the mark. Just a poor effort all round from our defenders.

Absoluetly!!!! They didn't seem switched on at any time of the game. People just can't blame Schoenmakers every time we give away goals. The other defenders should of helped him out by getting to the contest also. Thats what Stratton and Gibson are best at, yet they were completely useless yesterday... I hope Boumann comes back. I thought he was pretty good against the Pies and deserves another shot.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Re: Big defender

This forum is all about gross generalisations. When it comes to skill, placement, smarts and how players play, it's all subjective. Just look at how quick this board is to defend certain players, but quite easily write off others after only a handful of games.

For 3 years now we've been defending defenders based on them not being big enough, or not playing them in their right position. For 3 years now we've been searching for a big defender, and last year we get rid of a potential one, who in 5 appearances, did enough to suggest that he'd be worth persisting with.

That's all I'm saying.

I don't know about the vast majority of supporters and posters on here but i do know that there are some very astute observers on here that have played and watched young talent play this wonderful game of ours for many a year. I am not claiming to be one of them but i have seen just about every game Jordy has played for our club vfl or afl and just about every game schoey has. I always try and base my beliefs on observations after all they were all Hawthorn players at one stage.