Can Cloke Recapture the Glory Days?

[Good_Old]

Here's were your post went wrong.

but here I go.

 

[JB1975]

Here's were your post went wrong.

Ah. I always mess up that part.

 

[Pie eyed]

Travis is 28 now, which should be prime-time for a forward colossus. But he's been ineffective of late, for a range of reasons according to the media and the footy forums. These include injuries, poor ball-drop/kicking action/leading patterns, lack of front-line support, woeful delivery, flaky game-plan, pitiless umpires and his own mental demons.

Whatever the truth of it, we haven't seen the best of Cloke consistently for a while. Do we have the players, coaching staff, ideas, strategies or whatever else it would take to help him get back to his best? Or should we resign ourselves to a less satisfying reality of about 40 goals a year?

I truly hope so Snag. He needs a foil, which have not had since Didak and The Anvil stalked the forward line.
To be honest we have not had a remotely settle forward 4 since those halcyon days.
Been covering injury all over the ground since 2012, with Cloke seemingly the only constant.

 

[sloth6]

I personally don't think so and I hope I'm proven wrong.

He's a one trick pony now and his kicking hasn't improved.

He's taken a game apart once in the last few years that I can remember and that was against North.

 

[Good_Old]

I personally don't think so and I hope I'm proven wrong.

He's a one trick pony now and his kicking hasn't improved.

He's taken a game apart once in the last few years that I can remember and that was against North.

What's his one trick? and how many forwards have multiple? Who are they and what are their tricks?

 

[cleomenes]

Dawes was handy but not good. the notion that he will fix all our problems is a joke. yes he has missed games. but he has kicked 32 goals in 2 years at Melbourne and none this year. given that we got I think it was Broomhead ( might have been Grundy ) out of this deal we are well infront. Jessie White is playing terrible football last year but still managed 20 goals and relief in the ruck. and given what he has shown already this year he is on track for a 40+ goal season.

My point was that we did not replace Dawes. We got another player of completely different type. We did not have anyone to do what Dawes was doing. Lynch was an unsuccessful attempt to do so, but he had to ruck and be full forward. Likewise White. We did not have a full forward other than Cloke, and didn't seem to want one, which to me was odd.

 

[Bard]

My point was that we did not replace Dawes. We got another player of completely different type. We did not have anyone to do what Dawes was doing. Lynch was an unsuccessful attempt to do so, but he had to ruck and be full forward. Likewise White. We did not have a full forward other than Cloke, and didn't seem to want one, which to me was odd.

Because we didn't recruit Lynch with the intention of trading Dawes. Dawes decided it was his time to go once we recruited Lynch, as he didn't have confidence in himself to remain in our best 22 and wanted the job security Melbourne and their chunky contract provided.

 

[domin8tors]

My point was that we did not replace Dawes. We got another player of completely different type. We did not have anyone to do what Dawes was doing. Lynch was an unsuccessful attempt to do so, but he had to ruck and be full forward. Likewise White. We did not have a full forward other than Cloke, and didn't seem to want one, which to me was odd.

see losing Dawes wasn't the issue though. the issue was actually losing the 3rd tall. in Leigh Brown. as terrible as Lynch was his output was almost as good as Dawes in his last year at the club and thus far White this year has shown better form. we have been playing Goldsack as the " 3rd tall " but he is too defensive and doesn't have goal sense. brining in Gault we be interesting that now gives us 2 Tall forwards. Gault and Cloke. and that nimble tall forward in White.

 

[sloth6]

What's his one trick? and how many forwards have multiple? Who are they and what are their tricks?

Jack Reiwoldt is a perfect example - great leap and can take pack marks, mobile so gets it on the lead, he is able to find space and take uncontested marks, a pretty decent player when the ball hits the deck and he's a pretty reliable set shot for goal.

Cloke - lets try and wrestle and see who is the strongest. Would you want him kicking for goal 20m out?

 

[Good_Old]

Jack Reiwoldt is a perfect example - great leap and can take pack marks, mobile so gets it on the lead, he is able to find space and take uncontested marks, a pretty decent player when the ball hits the deck and he's a pretty reliable set shot for goal.

Cloke - lets try and wrestle and see who is the strongest. Would you want him kicking for goal 20m out?

So 1 bloke is multifaceted? You don't think Cloke can take good pack marks? Cloke also doesn't lead and doesn't take uncontested marks?

 

[gtrain23]

Cloke had glory days??

 

[Snag Breac]

Cloke had glory days??

Indeed he had, and I trust he will again, if properly supported.

 

[Kilmo]

Cloke kicked 5 goals last year against the Saints

 

[Soaring Magpie]

I like the forward set up we have in for tonight, three genuine talls. Gault to play full forward and cloke out to CHF, then Jessie white roaming as a high half forward.
This structure will help out trav enormously, expect a big one from him tonight

 

[Quicky]

He can, but he needs support.

In point of fact, I think he needs us to recruit someone so he is their foil.

Is Darcy the man?

Perhaps we need to dedicate some of our fat purse to the cause of finding him some genuine key position help up there.

 

[Snag Breac]

He can, but he needs support.

In point of fact, I think he needs us to recruit someone so he is their foil.

Is Darcy the man?

Perhaps we need to dedicate some of our fat purse to the cause of finding him some genuine key position help up there.

If the rumours are true, maybe we'll see Darcy helping him out tonight.

 

[dansa]

He's been a great player for the club but at the same time I think it's fair to say that when he won his Copeland in only his 3rd year, future expectations were even higher than what he has delivered. Poor delivery, moving to FF and his poor goal kicking have all contributed.

A very good CHF but unfortunately not elite.

 

[jackcass]

I am starting to become a closet tanker. Now I am flinging open the closet to release my tortured soul. The year is over for me if we lose to St Kilda. Why not look to next year and beyond? Play all the young guys and experiment with game plans. Start watching that Sunday arvo show where a bunch of guys including Terry Wallet talk for what seems eternity about the under 18's.

Or use the pick to grab a ready made champion from another club. Throw in Goldsack as a steak knife. Photoshop Jeremy Cameron in a Collingwood jumper into my new avatar. Suck in my pride and accept that this wooden spoon is not as fearsome as the one with which my mum used to threaten. Coming last for us will be humiliation with an upside.

If Cloke wishes to wallow in mediocrity so be it. A wooden spoon will usher in a long term replacement for him. Given that our players are finished at 30, Cloke will provide protection for a new boy in his first year or support for a more seasoned performer. Problem solved.

I must be a bit tired, originally read that as you confessing you're a w***er and that you're coming out of the closet. Which is fine by the way.

 

[TheWing121]

I am pretty excited to see how he goes tonight. White / Cloke as permenant forwards (Cloke playing higher & white out of the goal square). With Gault / Grundy Rotating in the ruck. I think currently Gault is more of threat up forward than Grundy / Witts so cant be left alone. It should give Cloke a chance to either dominate (especially with a average backline of ST Kilda) or White / Gault to get free

 

[peter9789]

Yes.

Here's how:

1. Move him back to Centre Half Forward and keep him there! Cloke is still in his prime, and his prime asset for a big man (besides his contested marking prowess) is his running ability. At a time when the ability to run has never been so important an asset in football as it is now, Cloke should be in his element running defenders into the ground. Instead, under Nathan Buckley, Cloke has been anchored deep in the forward 50, to be scragged and hung off like decorations on a Christmas tree. His best football has come at Centre Half Forward, where he can use his ability to run as a weapon to wear down his direct opponent, so that when he does push back toward goal, he is doing so on a b-ggered key backman. At age 28, he is not old enough yet to be forced to play from the goal square, so while he can still run, let him use this asset!

We notably saw a glimpse of this against Brisbane, when Cloke was allowed to run at CHF. It made our forward line work so much better. See how him getting up the ground opened up space behind him? Space which was then available for Cloke to push back into when he ran his defender around. We need to stick with this. Playing Cloke at CHF is, I believe, the most crucial step to getting him kicking 50-60 goals again.

2. Find that dependable 2nd key forward and play him deep. It's no coincidence that in Cloke's 4 best years, as measured by goals kicked, marks taken and general structural value to the side (2007, 2010, 2011 and 2013), he had that dependable 2nd key forward playing as a deep target. The 'solid sidekick', as I like to call them. They don't need to be superstars (although we certainly wouldn't say no if they were!), just dependable enough to take the 2nd defender and perform to an adequate standard as marking targets and goal kickers. In 2010/2011, that partner was Chris Dawes, source of a fair amount of angst on this board, but in those 2 years was competent enough to fill that void. In 2013, especially in the 2nd half of that season, it was Ben Reid, while Quinten Lynch had some early success as well which sadly didn't continue (for reasons I'll touch on below). And in 2007, the year Cloke won a Copeland Trophy at age 20, it was Anthony Rocca.

Do we have that 2nd dependable deep forward? To an extent, yes. Is it a rejuvenated Ben Reid? Is it Jesse White finally making good on his potential and making that form he showed in the 2nd half of 2013 as a proper key forward the standard? Is it Patrick Karnezis, translating his sterling 2014 VFL form as a key forward into the AFL? Is it Corey Gault arriving in what looms as a make-or-break year? Or does it come in the form of someone else, a blooding of Darcy Moore or a wildcard move of Brodie Grundy or Jarrod Witts to full forward?

For me, if it isn't Jesse White coming good, then as much as I do like the idea of him back to stiffen an inexperienced defence, practical reality commands that Reid play forward. If Reid can't be relied on with his body and White doesn't cut the mustard, then take a chance on Gault or Moore. They might be inexperienced, but getting those early games into them will reap dividends when their time comes to take over as our lynchpin(s). Karnezis has shone when playing as a key forward at VFL level, but that's generally because he is on smaller/less experienced/less talented backmen. Can he translate that to AFL level, playing AFL standard 2nd defenders? Only playing him will give us the answer.

3. Go back to the 3 talls setup and stick with it. This is the structure which underpinned a side that won a flag in 2010, made it to another Grand Final in 2011, a preliminary final in 2012 and helped us get the car going again in the 2nd half of 2013. In 2010 and 2011, that 3rd tall (who does the relief ruckwork as well) was Leigh Brown. In 2012, Chris Dawes had his best games playing this role in that meager season when he had the 2nd dependable key forward to release him (either Chris Tarrant, Ben Reid or, for a couple of games, Jackson Paine). In 2013, with Cloke and Reid holding the key posts, our structure (and Cloke in particular) worked so much better when our designated Leigh Brown clone was either Quinten Lynch, or a rotation of Jarrod Witts and Brodie Grundy working in tandem.

By contrast, when we 'down-sized' this position and went to a '2 talls, 4 smalls/others' forward setup, the 2nd key forward had to effectively shoulder the workload of two men and crumbled accordingly. It was a task that was beyond Chris Dawes, that ruined Quinten Lynch arguably before his time had come and saw Jesse White dropped twice in the back half of 2014. It is a structure that just doesn't work, bar maybe a sopping wet day when the conditions force you to play smalls and hard nuts. A return to a proper 3 talls structure is, in my view, an essential ingredient to getting Travis Cloke back to his best, because it reduces the workload on both him and his sidekick in the 2nd forward role (and in the case of guys like Ben Reid, it is necessary because they can't play ruck!)

Do we have that usable 3rd tall on our current list? Possibly. It is a physically demanding role, even for an elite AFL footballer. You have to cover territory like a Centre Half Forward does, but also take the relieving ruck duties, a position which is hard enough for the specialist rucks to play let alone the pinch hitters! You also have to be able to fill in for one of the 2 main key forwards when they take a spell. There's a reason why the term 'sh*t-truck' gained currency during Leigh Brown's time: you have to be the Clydesdale to the key forwards' stallions, with none of the affection that those lumbering cart-pulling horses get from the masses. You do the unglamorous work, so that the 2 main key forwards have the freedom to do theirs.

From our available stocks, we could either go down the path of Jesse White, or use one of the 2 young rucks instead (of the 2 I'd go with Grundy for reasons of age/balancing the mobility of the front half, but Witts would spend time forward in that setup as well, so it's much of a muchness), or deploy Gault (he plays this position the best when in the VFL) or take a chance on a young Darcy Moore. Of all these, I can definitely see either of the first 2 options (White or Grundy) working. Indeed, in the first half of 2014, our forward line worked much better than in the 2nd half of that season because we had 2 key forwards and one of the young rucks in the front half (still didn't produce 100 point+ scores, but worked a hell of a lot better than the alternative!). Gault is that next option in line, if we don't try him in the 2nd forward slot, while Moore is appealing on paper, but is perhaps best used as a specialist forward if we play him, if only to save him from the battering of playing relief ruck.

4. Most importantly, improve the delivery! And short of the noted butchers cleaning up their acts and becoming adequate (at a bare minimum) users of the ball, that means picking blokes who can kick! That means getting the Seedsmans, the Scharenbergs, the Broomheads, the Oxleys, even the Youngs all up and running and into the senior side. That means playing the De Goeys and the Maynards when they have the requisite fitness. And if guys like Varcoe and Crisp and Goldsack and Williams and Adams could all bring their standard of footskills up from poor to middle-of-the-road (even just that), well, then that would be a welcome improvement as well.

Sadly, injury management and recovery are key in this step, as they are with other things. Scharenberg (quite rightly) will not be rushed into the side and he's a kid anyway, Seedsman will take a while to get back to form and fitness, Pendlebury may not even play on Friday or if he does, will be playing under duress and has not looked quite himself of late, and Sidebottom's hand won't heal any faster.

There are other elements that we can address, but just addressing these five would see (I believe) Travis Cloke firing again like in the good old days, which in turn makes us a much better side.

Okay, rant/treatise over.

Swing away...

This ^^^^^

 

[loki04]

Cloke will still have days out but they will be irregular in occurence.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

What's his one trick? and how many forwards have multiple? Who are they and what are their tricks?

Plugger could make a dim sim materialise from a bag behind the goals.
He also could make them disappear in the blink of an eye. He was incredibly good at slight of mouth.

 

[HFF]

If the ball use sharpens up absolutely.

His teammates let him down.

 

[iGNITER]

Will kick 5 this week.

Pretty good call huh.

 

[Snag Breac]

Pretty good call huh.

Self praise is no recommendation.

Cloke missed a few, but was still magnificent. A glorious night!