Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[TylerDurden]

Cyril... picked up by the Hawks with pick 12 in the draft.

That's not the elite end mate.

Day was taken with 12. Can't have it both ways.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Yes but does it constitute being in the elite end?

On moto g(7) using BigFooty.com mobile app

For sure
1st round
As was Franklin, roughy, Lewis and hodge

 

[Gavin Excell]

That's not the elite end mate.

Day was taken with 12. Can't have it both ways.

Jeezus

 

[MinerBoy]

Jeezus

Nah we over looked him.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Nah we over looked him.

Bloody hell he was a high pick r1

I know you guys are trying to convince yourselves you are on right track but it's no excuse to fabricate history

 

[Bunk Moreland]

That's not the elite end mate.

Day was taken with 12. Can't have it both ways.

Thread refers to the Top 40 picks in the draft, and how Hawthorn clearly stepped away from that for many years.

 

[La Dispute]

Since when is Pick 12 not a high draft selection? Insane.

Day was also a high draft pick, albeit a reach. That came about though due to no quality players wanting to join Hawthorn last year, rather than some carefully purposed plan to re-invest at the top end of the draft.

 

[tonygeeks]

Deep down the Hawk fans know it's a dangerous game they're playing , you only have to look a the Chernobyl like meltdown that happened when Cogs stayed put

They know without a couple of top notch freebies coming along soon they are in trouble

Now if they can nab a good free agent or 2 then they are in business I'd say because they can still bulk up the bottom end with their picks intact

Pretty important they stay ahead of the chasing rebuild teams this year so they have the right message to sell

 

[TylerDurden]

Thread refers to the Top 40 picks in the draft, and how Hawthorn clearly stepped away from that for many years.

Sorry, the thread title is misleading. Elite end to me is a top 5 pick.

Point I'm trying to make, is Cyril was not an elite end pick. First round yes, but not the Rough/ Bud/ Lewis type picks we had.

Mind you Scully, Patton, Chad, JOM and Scrimshaw were all elite end, but traded in, so I guess it doesn't count in the context of this thread.

Anyway, bring on the season. Everyone's going a bit crazy waiting.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Sorry, the thread title is misleading. Elite end to me is a top 5 pick.

Point I'm trying to make, is Cyril was not an elite end pick. First round yes, but not the Rough/ Bud/ Lewis type picks we had.

Mind you Scully, Patton, Chad, JOM and Scrimshaw were all elite end, but traded in, so I guess it doesn't count in the context of this thread.

Anyway, bring on the season. Everyone's going a bit crazy waiting.

Top 12 in the country in his draft year? I’d call that elite, personally.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Cyril’s goals per game and season is not what made him such a great player...his ability to harass, chase and tackle

Yep, just what Daniel is renowned for amongst those who go to watch Richmond games. Nobody is saying he’s better at it than Cyril was at his peak, but that he brings a similar profile to his team. You (generically speaking) can’t celebrate one, and then dismiss another, for bringing that style of game.

 

[TylerDurden]

Top 12 in the country in his draft year? I’d call that elite, personally.

Different definitions. So be it.

Cyril, an elite player. Yes. Pick 12 an elite pick, not for mine.

 

[Slysh]

Deep down the Hawk fans know it's a dangerous game they're playing , you only have to look a the Chernobyl like meltdown that happened when Cogs stayed put

They know without a couple of top notch freebies coming along soon they are in trouble

Now if they can nab a good free agent or 2 then they are in business I'd say because they can still bulk up the bottom end with their picks intact

Pretty important they stay ahead of the chasing rebuild teams this year so they have the right message to sell

Of course we know it’s risky... just like bottoming out and hoping some kids save our club. List management ain’t easy and most acknowledge it’s far from a sure thing to succeed, we just aren’t willing call it a failure half way through.

 

[tonygeeks]

Of course we know it’s risky... just like bottoming out and hoping some kids save our club. List management ain’t easy and most acknowledge it’s far from a sure thing to succeed, we just aren’t willing call it a failure half way through.

Of course we all want you blokes to have a couple of years on the sh*t sandwiches like the rest of us but I'm not as dismissive as I was before

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Since when is Pick 12 not a high draft selection? Insane.

Day was also a high draft pick, albeit a reach. That came about though due to no quality players wanting to join Hawthorn last year, rather than some carefully purposed plan to re-invest at the top end of the draft.

Giants had Will Day getting taken around their Pick 4 and were looking at him, but Hawthorn take him at 12 and it’s a reach.

Inside the draft's first round: Twists, turns, bluffs, big calls

Draft guru Callum Twomey takes you inside the first round of the draft

www.afl.com.au

 

[Nugett]

2013 Pre-Season Ladder

Pos	Team	Pld	W	L	D	PF	PA	%	Pts
1	Brisbane Lions	4	4	0	0	277	186	148.9	16	Grand Final
2	Carlton	4	3	1	0	310	219	141.6	12
3	Geelong	4	3	1	0	301	242	124.4	12
4	St Kilda	4	3	1	0	246	222	110.8	12
5	Richmond	4	3	1	0	245	225	108.9	12
6	Collingwood	4	3	1	0	228	222	102.7	12
7	North Melbourne	4	3	1	0	272	265	102.6	12
8	Essendon	4	2	2	0	271	164	165.2	8
9	Port Adelaide	4	2	2	0	260	222	117.1	8
10	Fremantle	4	2	2	0	264	271	97.4	8
11	Adelaide	4	2	2	0	239	309	77.3	8
12	West Coast	4	1	3	0	249	253	98.4	4
13	Sydney	4	1	3	0	199	232	85.8	4
14	Melbourne	4	1	3	0	195	235	83.0	4
15	Greater Western Sydney	4	1	3	0	209	281	74.4	4
16	Gold Coast	4	1	3	0	187	268	69.8	4
17	Western Bulldogs	4	1	3	0	160	312	51.3	4
18	Hawthorn	4	0	4	0	198	222	89.2	0

Did we waste the pre season #1 draft pick?

 

[Nugett]

Nah we over looked him.

is that the draft that we picked up Peter Hudson instead?

 

[hk89]

Bloody hell he was a high pick r1

Anything outside top 10 starts to get speculative for mine. Of course it is all relative, and 12 is obviously less speculative than 72, but there are a LOT of 12s that go nowhere. The two number 12s that followed Cyril in 2008 and 2009 were Lewis Johnston (10 games over 4 years), and Kane Lucas (42 games over 7 years). Sure there are some pretty solid number 12s too, but players like Johnston and Lucas are why Hawthorn has tended to use those later first rounders at the trade table instead of on draft day, as they clearly feel they get better bang for buck taking known quantities (as well as the advantage of being very targeted on which holes you are plugging).

I know you guys are trying to convince yourselves you are on right track but it's no excuse to fabricate history

Calling anything outside the top 10 "not that high" is just a matter of opinion not a fabrication.

To be honest I'm worried about the course we are following. I think Geelong has taken a very similar path. They've basically tried to avoid dropping too far down the ladder with targeted trading, and trying to get the most out of their last batch of premiership players to try to grab another shot at a flag before those players retire. They've wavered a bit in recent years hitting the draft a little more, but they are also 5 years ahead of our schedule, and we too chose to go to the draft with our first rounder this year. Hard to know what to make of pre-season games, but Geelong looked frighteningly poor against GC (even allowing for the many reasons a team isn't in top form in pre-season). Hopefully they pull things together once the season starts, because I'd hate to think that was a glimpse of what the future holds for Hawthorn if we continue to follow in Geelong's footsteps in terms of rebuild strategy.

 

[hk89]

Since when is Pick 12 not a high draft selection? Insane.

Day was also a high draft pick, albeit a reach. That came about though due to no quality players wanting to join Hawthorn last year, rather than some carefully purposed plan to re-invest at the top end of the draft.

Who did we target other than Coniglio? Seem to recall he turned down a very generous offer from your club too? Given Finn was in many pundit's first round selections if not for father/son, we brought in the equivalent of 3 first round draft picks during this year's draft/trade period (Day/Finn/Patton). Like I've said, Hawthorn are not ignoring the elite end of the draft, never have. They are just selective on when they bring them in, and often draft day isn't the most opportune time to do that.

 

[Freomaniac]

Plus Ellis, Thorp, Dowler all top 10 pick spuds. Aint no guarantees as they say.

Agreed.....

Just look at the 1st 4 picks in the 2009 draft.

Melbourne got scully and trengrove at picks 1 and 2 and it didnt work out for them.

Pick 3 was in richmonds hands and they got dustin martin. Enough said

Pick 4 freo got Anthony Morabito. Could of been decent if he didnt have 3 knee recos in a row from 2011-13

 

[Gavin Excell]

Anything outside top 10 starts to get speculative for mine. Of course it is all relative, and 12 is obviously less speculative than 72, but there are a LOT of 12s that go nowhere. The two number 12s that followed Cyril in 2008 and 2009 were Lewis Johnston (10 games over 4 years), and Kane Lucas (42 games over 7 years). Sure there are some pretty solid number 12s too, but players like Johnston and Lucas are why Hawthorn has tended to use those later first rounders at the trade table instead of on draft day, as they clearly feel they get better bang for buck taking known quantities (as well as the advantage of being very targeted on which holes you are plugging).



Calling anything outside the top 10 "not that high" is just a matter of opinion not a fabrication.

To be honest I'm worried about the course we are following. I think Geelong has taken a very similar path. They've basically tried to avoid dropping too far down the ladder with targeted trading, and trying to get the most out of their last batch of premiership players to try to grab another shot at a flag before those players retire. They've wavered a bit in recent years hitting the draft a little more, but they are also 5 years ahead of our schedule, and we too chose to go to the draft with our first rounder this year. Hard to know what to make of pre-season games, but Geelong looked frighteningly poor against GC (even allowing for the many reasons a team isn't in top form in pre-season). Hopefully they pull things together once the season starts, because I'd hate to think that was a glimpse of what the future holds for Hawthorn if we continue to follow in Geelong's footsteps in terms of rebuild strategy.

I think the likely result is Geelong like. Finals appearances but perhaps not good enough in the end.
Geelongs topping up has been different though - while 5 or so years ago players traded in were in their mid 20s in latter years they’ve been far older

 

[Pessimistic]

Thread refers to the Top 40 picks in the draft, and how Hawthorn clearly stepped away from that for many years.

‘plenty of spuds consistently before 40

 

[Pessimistic]

I think the likely result is Geelong like. Finals appearances but perhaps not good enough in the end.
Geelongs topping up has been different though - while 5 or so years ago players traded in were in their mid 20s in latter years they’ve been far older

‘it’s like Geelong have had a couple of waves of ‘rebuild’ with the kelly picks perhaps another to come. They have been bold in playing a lot of youngsters, and not really going down the ladder. Seven years after the flag was 2018. Into the second seven year period now. Hawks still 4 years behind that

 

[Furn2]

Elite end of the draft is top 5. Theres a big drop off in your odds of hitting gold after that.

While your odds are obviously better the higher the pick im not sure you can call pick 12 for example elite when the odds of getting a top player are about half that of a top 5 pick.

 

[MinerBoy]

Yep, just what Daniel is renowned for amongst those who go to watch Richmond games. Nobody is saying he’s better at it than Cyril was at his peak, but that he brings a similar profile to his team. You (generically speaking) can’t celebrate one, and then dismiss another, for bringing that style of game.

Daniel is a top young player. Really enjoy watching him.