No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[yaco55]

Source of this being her advice and not Hird's choice of wording? Besides, when you're senior coach and the supplements program which you organised and demanded turns into the farce it did, accepting responsibility is just PR 101. Hardly bad advice if she did give it and Hird shouldn't and surely wouldn't say these things if he didn't believe them...



LOL what? You're trying to tie the Switkowski report around her neck? If the board didn't issue an internal investigation into the serious of cluster****s that occurred, then the board would've been completely inept and would've learned jack s**t about what actually went wrong and how to prevent it happening again. And as for the public release, this same forum and Essendon supporters everywhere demanded to know what had happened with this porgram, how it was allowed to happen, who was responsible and what would been done to rectify it. Which goes into your last 'example'....



So you complain about the club being 'gagged' but when they actually do release something to us of substance, you complain? Lukin just can't win at all.

There's very good reason the club said nothing and Lukin or anyone else with half a brain, let alone qualifications and experience, would know that commenting and refuting events during a crisis situation where you don't know all the facts or what's happened is sheer stupidity. I seem to remember a certain statement released on the very day our players were issued SC notices saying the club says it was very unlikely we would receive any - see how stupid that was?

Not to mention the fact that if you pick and choose stuff to comment on, you give power to the content that you ignore.

For instance, you may refute 75 per cent of an article or be offended by it, but the remaining 25 per cent the general public members will look at and say "oh, they didn't refute that so it must be true" which continues on until you've drowned yourself.

It is far, far more practical to say nothing than to either selectively respond or respond to everything.



Disagree entirely. She's just yet another scapegoat for people to tie the whole thing around certain individuals necks to protect others.

EDIT: since the Hird standing down in round three was mentioned, I have no problem with her suggesting that as an option to him, it's her job after all to present these options and every man, women and dog knew it was a realistic option. Did anyone find out that she suggested it as option? Did she force him to do anything? No. So I don't see how that is something practical to tie around her neck either.

My question is if Hird refused to stand down why didn't Lukin leave her consultancy at Essendon ? It seems pointless for Lukin so stay on, especially seeing that she was working for the AFL.

This saga shows that certain people should have stood down at various times - Sadly it didn't happen.

 

[yaco55]

Not this Evans crap again. I can't comprehend how you can be so stringent in your defence of Hird yet cast Evans to the wolves so easily.

Evans is not a legend - Neither is Hamilton or Robson ! It makes perfect sense.

 

[DonsRule]

McDevitt or the Government ?

McDevitt still has to pull the trigger I understand, maybe the go ahead from the govt, but under the ASADA act he gives the go ahead.

 

[yaco55]

Good on you Tracey Holmes:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-29/holmes-hird-is-slowly-being-extinguished/5631594

How can you say Good on ya Tracey. Holmes writes that board members have been leaking to the media but others on BF claim that Caro is making this up. Which one is it ?

 

[yaco55]

McDevitt still has to pull the trigger I understand, maybe the go ahead from the govt, but under the ASADA act he gives the go ahead.

Yes - But Public Servants bow to their masters - This is far more important than any discussion about Hird - I expect more information to come out in the next few months.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Guys, people misrepresent each other's arguments and put up the straw man quite often- it's part and parcel of debate, unfortunately, and we're probably all guilty of it at some point.

Pfft, yeah, everything everyone says is totally out of context and wrong. Get off your Trojan horse you flog.

 

[DonsRule]

The Prosecutor

The issue with Lukin for he is where did her allegiance lay?

There were the 12 clubs that had possible issues with their suppliments programs, the AFL said all the others were sweet though, no worries. THough we would not have found out about Melbourne and Dank if it were the AFL's way.


The AFL, IMO have had an extremely successful PR campaign, that had 12 clubs been investigated, it would have been an AFL drug scandle. the AFL successfully created a firewall around Essendon it was the Essendon drug scandal

I'm just not sure Lukin had an interest in creating that kind of storm

 

[60sbomber]

You take it up with Bomber60 - This poster is happy to have Hird remain as coach even if players are suspended.

I've just about had enough debating stuff with you, and I was willing to let it ride.........that is, until you post garbage like this.

I said I would keep Hird as coach even if players are suspended, because any illegal use of drugs, if it is established, was not of his doing, and he has acted with integrity throughout.

Somehow, you have tried to turn that into me not caring too much if players are suspended as long as Hird gets off.

I replied that I do not downplay the gravity of any suspension to any player, but it doesn't make Hird responsible. The responsibility lies with Dank and Robinson.

Don't twist my words or my meaning to suit your argument.

 

[Doss]

Pfft, yeah, everything everyone says is totally out of context and wrong. Get off your Trojan horse you flog.

Who says we couldn't have a laugh with each other every now and then?

Talking of horses, I feel like we all get along best when we're telling Damien Barrett and the horse he rode in on to go forth and multiply. Rudely.

 

[yaco55]

Same here. If players get suspended I'm happy to have Hird remain coach and Bomber as assistant.

What's that got to do with how we feel about either? Let me repeat it to you. We want both to be in the clear. BOTH. We don't favour either and won't get into silly debates about 1 or the other. Both clear. Both free.

This is delusional - The AFL doesn't want Hird back now - There is no way the AFL will allow Hird back if the players are suspended.

At least you've pinned your colors to the mast.

 

[yodellinhank]

I doubt that Robson or Hamilton walked voluntarily - I doubt that either was the architect of the supplements program.

Robson and Hamilton's positions were at the behest of the board. Evans position on the board was at the behest of the members. Evans walked without any talk of EGMs.

 

[yaco55]

I've just about had enough debating stuff with you, and I was willing to let it ride.........that is, until you post garbage like this.

I said I would keep Hird as coach even if players are suspended, because any illegal use of drugs, if it is established, was not of his doing, and he has acted with integrity throughout.

Somehow, you have tried to turn that into me not caring too much if players are suspended as long as Hird gets off.

I replied that I do not downplay the gravity of any suspension to any player, but it doesn't make Hird responsible. The responsibility lies with Dank and Robinson.

Don't twist my words or my meaning to suit your argument.

So I quoted your post correctly - You acknowledge that I understood the meaning of your post - There is nothing more to discuss - Hird won't be coach if players are suspended - There is a clause in his contract that covers this scenario - One final point - Who will Hird be coaching ? Do you seriously think that players who are suspended would want Hird as coach.

 

[kfc1]

Caused me to exhale through my nose.

How scurrilous!

 

[Pweter]

Really - So the reasoned decision to have Hird play a back-seat role until the end of Essendon's 2014 campaign is because of media pressure, but yet the Hangar video from March effectively stated this would happen. Yeah - It was media influence !

Go ask bomber, afterall he's the one that said he'd be happy to have hird in the box but they buckled to the media backlash.

 

[Whispering_Jack]

Evans is not a legend - Neither is Hamilton or Robson ! It makes perfect sense.

The argument that you're inferring here is so frustrating, and you're not the only one. The whole 'if it was Knights he would have been gone' argument is s**t. He probably would have been sacked, but that would not have made it any more right, especially when we still don't know the truth.

Hird IS a legend but all that is affording him is the opportunity to do his 'time' and (hopefully) move on, something that anyone in his position should be allowed. It's actually an indictment on society and the media that Hird is an exception and not the rule. Natural justice, not available to anyone famous or rich... Tall poppy syndrome alive and well.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

I can will defend it. Tell me a better, more plausible way of handling it that would take up less energy and actually be effective? Quick tip, there isn't one.

Is it ideal? No. Silence was better than the alternatives.

Oh, I dunno, it's pretty hard to find an alternative PR strategy to the one that worked so well to ours.

Oh, wait, no it isn't.

How about this?

-Aggressively pursue legal action against all slander and libel that is found. Papers with Jake Melksham's name on them should have been filed against Gerard Healy on February 6, 2013. Probably pick a couple of scapegoats among the general public, from sites like this, from Twitter, from SEN talkback. Put a couple of heads on spikes and watch everyone else back right off.

-Aggressively leak our side of the story to News Ltd, have statements almost daily refuting claims leveled at the club, have Justin Rodski almost with a permanent TV slot. Deny until you die. If anything was actually to be proven against the club, a statement denying it would be the least of our worries. The AOD story Whateley ran with in about September should have been leaked in April or whenever it was that the AOD story broke. Dank's correspondence about "thymosin" which referred to the properties of thymomodulin should have been pushed much more aggressively and much sooner than they were.

Suddenly you have a situation where one side of the story is less vehemently pushed due to the need to actually back up a position to the extent that it cannot be construed as libelous, and the other side of the story is also being aggressively promoted. The public can therefore make their mind up based on two sides of the story, not have one side forcibly shoved down their throats until it became the perceived truth while the other side just copped it.

The PR stance is indefensible. It significantly weakened our position when it came to the fisting we copped in August, it continues to weaken our position among the general public, and it will continue to do untold damage in years to come. How many kids who have been bullied at Auskick because they wear a red sash will end up supporting Hawthorn or someone else?

To continue defending it is absolutely remarkable, and significantly weakens any other position you hold on the issue. Defend the conception of it, fine, because that can be defended. To defend its continuation past the point that it became apparent that it was doing more damage than other PR stances is just, well, I'm actually lost for words here.

Oh spare me. He can do absolutely no wrong in your eyes. He damn well could've defended himself if he really wanted to, hell, he told all and sundry he would and promised us all we would be in a very good place. Admittedly, it must've been a pretty good place from his funded vila in France while completed a funded degree. As for your defence of Hird's leaking, that's just pathetic. He leaked testimony that had no relevance to anything at all other than putting the leader of our club under a bus for no reason other than to pursue his own selfish agenda. Think about that for a second would before painting him as Saint Hird again, would you?

As for Evans, would you like to show me a source that Evans did anything untoward? In any case,Evans is complete within his right to allocate responsibility to those who it was deemed worthy of it. Hird was rightfully one of them. Or is Hird above the club?

Sifting through the ridiculous straw men and ad hominems here (seriously, perjoratives like "Saint Hird" and "vila [sic] in France" just make you look pathetic and petulant), there's not really a reasonable point being made.

He can and did do wrong in my eyes, but not to the extent that he has to take responsibility for things that were outside his control.

Your bullshit about him being able to defend himself if he wanted to is the kind of bullshit Hobson's choice logic that resides on the HTB. The club told him they'd prefer if he rolled over and copped something he considered unjust. If he'd refused and fought to clear his name, you and others who are insistent on finding fault with the man in everything he does would complain about him not acting in the club's interest, making it all about himself, blah blah bullshit bullshit.

What did he do to you to make you so irrationally desperate to criticise every aspect of his conduct? There are elements you can absolutely criticise, significant elements, but going beyond that like you so frequently do pushes you beyond the realm of those who have strong and legitimate gripes with his conduct into irrationality.

When Evans on behalf of the board hired Hird, all process were followed and all procedures were put in place to make sure there was as little chance for things to implode. Obviously he failed to establish culture that wasn't sucked into the cult of Hird.

Hird on the other hand, went out and hired Dank without even running a basic reference check FFS. The two are completely different.

As for what Evans did? You can't even acknowledge the fundamental things has done for this club. I mean, that $30 million state-of-the-art facility we now call home was just another example of how Evans sold us up s**t creek.

So far, Evans only transgression has been supposedly putting our playing group, the real victims and our primary assets, ahead of Jamer Hird. What a ******* crime.

Cult of Hird? That's absolute bullshit, and it pretty much ends the point where I waste my ******* time reading your arguments on the issue.

 

[JayDon]

Robbo's summation was ok. The machinations we don't know? But tonight I started to feel there's more going on after 360. I believe Robbo's cards are held close. Who is the Prosecutor? His angle is different???

 

[JayDon]

actually confirmed there's more going on. Imagine the work behind the scenes...look at us...imagine them!!!

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

This is delusional - The AFL doesn't want Hird back now - There is no way the AFL will allow Hird back if the players are suspended.

At least you've pinned your colors to the mast.

I have no care what the afl wants.

From all the information I have at hand the players should escape punishment and so should hird. I'll back both whatever happens.

My essendon colors are well and truly pinned to the mast and proud of it. I'm won't be changing my opinion because of some incompetent and self serving government organization needs to justify it's existence. Or the ******* afl with its shady backroom deals.

 

[60sbomber]

So I quoted your post correctly - You acknowledge that I understood the meaning of your post - There is nothing more to discuss - Hird won't be coach if players are suspended - There is a clause in his contract that covers this scenario - One final point - Who will Hird be coaching ? Do you seriously think that players who are suspended would want Hird as coach.

You may have understood the meaning of my post, but you deliberately misrepresented it to suit your purpose. You said, a few pages back, that I didn't care too much about players getting suspended as long as Hird gets off.

It is enlightening that you have such good sources that you know what clauses are in his contract. I had no idea you were so well informed.

At last something we agree on. The players should have the biggest say in whether Hird stays as coach if there are suspensions. And yes, I do seriously think the players would want him to stay, even if there are suspensions. I think the players have made their support of Hird clear. I don't think this will change if there are suspensions. I expect that they will think, as I do, that any suspensions will not be because he has failed them.

 

[rines]

-Aggressively pursue legal action against all slander and libel that is found. Papers with Jake Melksham's name on them should have been filed against Gerard Healy on February 6, 2013. Probably pick a couple of scapegoats among the general public, from sites like this, from Twitter, from SEN talkback. Put a couple of heads on spikes and watch everyone else back right off.

-Aggressively leak our side of the story to News Ltd, have statements almost daily refuting claims leveled at the club, have Justin Rodski almost with a permanent TV slot. Deny until you die. If anything was actually to be proven against the club, a statement denying it would be the least of our worries. The AOD story Whateley ran with in about September should have been leaked in April or whenever it was that the AOD story broke. Dank's correspondence about "thymosin" which referred to the properties of thymomodulin should have been pushed much more aggressively and much sooner than they were.

Suddenly you have a situation where one side of the story is less vehemently pushed due to the need to actually back up a position to the extent that it cannot be construed as libelous, and the other side of the story is also being aggressively promoted. The public can therefore make their mind up based on two sides of the story, not have one side forcibly shoved down their throats until it became the perceived truth while the other side just copped it.

The PR stance is indefensible. It significantly weakened our position when it came to the fisting we copped in August, it continues to weaken our position among the general public, and it will continue to do untold damage in years to come. How many kids who have been bullied at Auskick because they wear a red sash will end up supporting Hawthorn or someone else?
.

Yep.. that would have been nice. We waited until 99.99% of the public already believed a) we were guilty of doping b) Hird was the devil c) EFC should not play finals d) EFC should be thankful the AFL are even letting the stay in the competition... before we bothered to actually come out and say ANYTHING remotely in defence of our position...

It was staggering then.. it is painful to think about now. As story after story of lies was written.. nothing from EFC. And allowing Ziggy to write THAT line.. was just plain stupid and dumb.. it was a rash line written by someone who IN THE FINE PRINT had explained that he had no knowledge of that side of things.. yet he felt the need to put in this shock quote value line about experimental environments.. that should have been edited.. it added NOTHING to the actual weight/purpose of the review.. but it created a noose from which the club has never escaped. That was perhaps the biggest PR bungle of our time.. right up there with the Hewson explanations of GST on cakes..

 

[EnolaGay]

Yep.. that would have been nice. We waited until 99.99% of the public already believed a) we were guilty of doping b) Hird was the devil c) EFC should not play finals d) EFC should be thankful the AFL are even letting the stay in the competition... before we bothered to actually come out and say ANYTHING remotely in defence of our position...

It was staggering then.. it is painful to think about now. As story after story of lies was written.. nothing from EFC. And allowing Ziggy to write THAT line.. was just plain stupid and dumb.. it was a rash line written by someone who IN THE FINE PRINT had explained that he had no knowledge of that side of things.. yet he felt the need to put in this shock quote value line about experimental environments.. that should have been edited.. it added NOTHING to the actual weight/purpose of the review.. but it created a noose from which the club has never escaped. That was perhaps the biggest PR bungle of our time.. right up there with the Hewson explanations of GST on cakes..

Yes, a similar but much shorter train-wreck than our 2013!

 

[Ben the Gooner]

On Lukin, is anyone surprised that she resigned on the day that Neville Chamberlain quit as Chairman? Funny how after those two key departures we started (somewhat) acting in our own interests.

 

[scottmclaren]

This is the damage caused by Vlad leaking information from the ACCC briefing.

Please nobody suggest that he did us a favour

 

[JayDon]

LOVE hearing VLAD'S name coming up. 2 years in my book.