Opinion Creating a Culture of Success at Hawthorn

[MasterSamurai]

Let's revisit this in 18 months. End of next year

 

[wahawk]

What’s your fascination with posting random pics of players.

Seriously, we have a young group of players who will work their way as they go.

I don’t see 1st yr apprentices giving too many orders on building sites
These kids are young. Give them time to grow.

 

[toomanysquibs]

I know we are in the era of “cuddle culture” and everything’s about making the players happy but I just don’t think you’re ever going to win flags with a kumbaya mantra. If I was a recruiter I would have leadership and competitiveness right alongside football ability in my selection criteria.

Am I being too simplistic?

Luke Hodge was a hyper vigilant leader who demanded a ridiculous level of concentration/iintensity from himself and those around him.

Up close he looked like a Lion. I'll never forget him guarding a forward, then exploding to shut down a Geelong player running unmarked into ther F50 at the punt rd. end in the 2008 GF. One guy beat two opponents in a situation that looked to be a no-win.

Late in that game, when it was won, he screamed at Crawford that he wasn't going to just enjoy the experience. He was too into making it certain we'd win.

The head injury with blood was optional, plenty of AFL players can go hard all day and take a hit. There's just a lot beyond it that went into Hodge being a great leader.

If players like him were growing on trees, everyone would have 22 of them.

Nash embodied that spirit when he was up and about against the Crows. But we need someone who can do it all day, every day.

But then so does everyone else.

Collingwood have a huge list of mature players. It's not Nick Daicos and a supporting cast. It's an entire team, plus the new guys.

Our team is young, it's going to take time to build a big core of guys capable of doing what they are. If we unearth a Luke Hodge somehow along the way, lightening will have struck twice.

 

[Dewnior]

You see this is where i disagree. Gunston perhaps to some extent as an organiser for the forward group but those other 2 were wet blankets.

They could both play football but i wouldn't follow either of them into a milk bar let alone a battle.

We need testosterone and alpha male energy out there on the field.

I mentioned the other two in relation to the original post saying there's no one pushing the training standards.

 

[Brishawk]

You see this is where i disagree. Gunston perhaps to some extent as an organiser for the forward group but those other 2 were wet blankets.

They could both play football but i wouldn't follow either of them into a milk bar let alone a battle.

We need testosterone and alpha male energy out there on the field.

Do you know how many finals brisbane played after 2004 or with brown as captain? They made the finals once in 9 years to play in 2 matches. One win and one loss. Is that the kind of success you are after?

 

[The hands of stone]

Quite a few posters have reacted over a poor performance on the weekend ignoring the previous 3 positive performances .

As the team grows , develops and gains confidence we will see leaders .
We have them now its just not evident on game day due to where the team is .

Its the long patience game if your willing to go for the ride .

 

[threesixpio]

We need players bleeding more. We should have a new KPI

 

[The hands of stone]

We need players bleeding more. We should have a new KPI

 

[threesixpio]

Cam McKenzie should beat up heaps of people and turn up fat to the first two pre-seasons.

I love you Hodgey btw …but you were a bit crap early on.

 

[TazHawk15]

Dear OP, winning 13 Premierships since 1961 is a culture of success.

 

[Lotus]

In regards to Collingwood, I believe another factor is the energy feeds by their rabid supporters on the game day.

Us Hawks supporters, tend to be very quite. Well, I'm just happy if we can fill up the stadium and be a little bit vocal. But yeah perhaps that will come when the team wins more.

 

[CHUBBSS]

Quite a few posters have reacted over a poor performance on the weekend ignoring the previous 3 positive performances .

As the team grows , develops and gains confidence we will see leaders .
We have them now its just not evident on game day due to where the team is .

Its the long patience game if your willing to go for the ride .

Something about patience and enjoying the development of the group needs to stickied on every thread, it’s like Groundhog Day all the time

EDIT: Typo fixed by a mod before Grumbleguts could jump in with a witty riposte

 

[Mitchell Madness]

In regards to Collingwood, I believe another factor is the energy feeds by their rabid supporters on the game day.

Us Hawks supporters, tend to be very quite. Well, I'm just happy if we can fill up the stadium and be a little bit vocal. But yeah perhaps that will come when the team wins more.

Our supporters are very family friendly.
I've literally seen someone get told to sit down and shut up for yelling ball - and that was during our threepeat era!

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

I wish Finn was in the team. Son of a former player and very vocal at training. Always seems happy to wrestle too. Shame about his form

 

[Philhawk]

Maybe you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not expecting wins or even overly competitive performances in the present.

The core of my question is whether we are bringing guys onto our list that have the fire in their bellies. Guys that will lead and set the tone and will us over the finish line.

From 2002-2006 we hardly won a game but we had young guys on the list that embodied those traits. Hodge was screaming and directing traffic in his first season. He was even criticised for it in the media. The other guys I mentioned I don’t remember too well if it was apparent at the time but clearly it was there smouldering. I am convinced that it’s the magic ingredient to sustained success and all I want is to see it germinating on this list.

Can anyone highlight players on our list at present that even remotely fit this bill?

Ill give you Hardwick and at a push Sicily and as mentioned I see some good things with Mitch Lewis.

Newcombe and Worpel im hoping have something in there which isn’t apparent yet because they’re the sort of players you need showing those traits.

Beyond that it gets very thin.

How do you judge who has fire in the belly?

I think we're quick to judge that members of our current playing list don't have the leadership qualities that a Hodge or Mitchell do.

I had the pleasure listening to Hodge speak at a lunch a few years ago on leadership.

When he first entered the club, he was a somewhat tubby kid who relied on talent more than hard work. He spoke about being dropped by Clarko early in his career for being late to a training session because of a birthday party he attended.

Would anyone have predicted he'd go on to become the leader he did? Absolutely not - but he spoke about the mentors he had along the way.

Crawf, Johnny Barker, Michael Osbourne, Angelo Lekkas, Nathan Thompson, Richie Vandenburg, Ben Dixon were all people he spoke about glowingly in terms of the impact they had on his leadership style.

Of those, how many will go down in the annals of Hawks history as legends? Maybe just Crawf? The point is, most of them were role players who most people wouldn't think had a huge impact on developing the young leaders at the club.

There's an obsession that unless we have leaders like Selwood, Jono Brown and Travis Boak to teach the kids, they can't learn leadership. Having really good, strong professionals (and coaches) I'd argue is more important - and it's going to be what gets Day, Newk, Lewis and others into that next tier of leadership.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

I'm gonna get on a bit of a rant here.

There's a bit of an old school obsession with wanting leaders to be angry when things aren't going well. To demonstrate frustration and aggression at teammates to pull them into line if they're not doing well enough. I find it so weird.

Geelong just won a flag and half the time their leaders are on the field laughing and joking around. Dangerfield is obsessed with the camera. Selwood is probably the kind that this thread is calling for but who else at Geelong that has kept them up and thereabouts for a decade? Nobody that fits the 'angry about a loss' types that is being called for here.

I saw Nick Maxwell

Nick Maxwell

Age

40

Ht

193cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.5

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

6.7

4star

M

4.6

4star

T

3.4

5star

No current season stats available

D

14.0

4star

K

8.4

4star

HB

5.6

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

3.0

5star

mentioned in this thread. Geezus Christ - of all the people to refer to. Barry Hall? Come on. Let's get serious here - if you're referencing Barry Hall it really just means you like people who get angry.

We don't want a team of Brendan Goddard's who point and yell and their teammates and throw the pretzels on the ground after every loss. Or Barry Hall's who will get suspended every few weeks. I want guys like Nash who get everything out of themselves and don't need that alpha crap to physically intimidate and beat opponents. I want guys like Will Day who got crunched repeatedly (and injured) as a young player but kept getting up and is now strong enough to take the heat and to change the game when playing in the midfield.

We've got the youngest midfield going around and they are winning their bit every week. Newcombe came from the bush league, Nash from another country, Day developed from twig to rig - all of these guys overcame some amazing things to perform at a level that matches some of the best in the competition. This is the leadership and drive a club needs. We are still miles off but the thing we want is happening right in front of our eyes.

Maybe if Newcombe punched the ground after a loss, or if Day screamed in a teammates face after conceding a goal it would soothe some of the testorone needs of the fans . Maybe a bit of footage of Sam Mitchell tearing strips off one of the players would feel good. Probably Chad. People would love that. Maybe if more players pointed to their jumpers after kicking a goal. Or swore when they made a mistake. (Unless the umpire decides that's 50m, then it's horrible leadership and a bad example).

Sorry - I've descended into sarcasm. But my point is that most of the best leaders in the AFL don't make a show of it for the fans. They just keep going and do it for their teammates.

 

[Philhawk]

I'm gonna get on a bit of a rant here.

There's a bit of an old school obsession with wanting leaders to be angry when things aren't going well. To demonstrate frustration and aggression at teammates to pull them into line if they're not doing well enough. I find it so weird.

Geelong just won a flag and half the time their leaders are on the field laughing and joking around. Dangerfield is obsessed with the camera. Selwood is probably the kind that this thread is calling for but who else at Geelong that has kept them up and thereabouts for a decade? Nobody that fits the 'angry about a loss' types that is being called for here.

I saw Nick Maxwell mentioned in this thread. Geezus Christ - of all the people to refer to. Barry Hall? Come on. Let's get serious here - if you're referencing Barry Hall it really just means you like people who get angry.

We don't want a team of Brendan Goddard's who point and yell and their teammates and throw the pretzels on the ground after every loss. Or Barry Hall's who will get suspended every few weeks. I want guys like Nash who get everything out of themselves and don't need that alpha crap to physically intimidate and beat opponents. I want guys like Will Day who got crunched repeatedly (and injured) as a young player but kept getting up and is now strong enough to take the heat and to change the game when playing in the midfield.

We've got the youngest midfield going around and they are winning their bit every week. Newcombe came from the bush league, Nash from another country, Day developed from twig to rig - all of these guys overcame some amazing things to perform at a level that matches some of the best in the competition. This is the leadership and drive a club needs. We are still miles off but the thing we want is happening right in front of our eyes.

Maybe if Newcombe punched the ground after a loss, or if Day screamed in a teammates face after conceding a goal it would soothe some of the testorone needs of the fans . Maybe a bit of footage of Sam Mitchell tearing strips off one of the players would feel good. Probably Chad. People would love that. Maybe if more players pointed to their jumpers after kicking a goal. Or swore when they made a mistake. (Unless the umpire decides that's 50m, then it's horrible leadership and a bad example).

Sorry - I've descended into sarcasm. But my point is that most of the best leaders in the AFL don't make a show of it for the fans. They just keep going and do it for their teammates.

1000%.

Leadership isn't shown from wanton displays of anger - it's the 100 actions on the training paddock, meticulous preparation, and private leadership away from cameras that matter far, far more.

 

[Brishawk]

We need players bleeding more. We should have a new KPI

Hodge was elite at bleeding. As was McEvoy. Nash is the new leader of the pack in this stat

 

[Brishawk]

I'm gonna get on a bit of a rant here.

There's a bit of an old school obsession with wanting leaders to be angry when things aren't going well. To demonstrate frustration and aggression at teammates to pull them into line if they're not doing well enough. I find it so weird.

Geelong just won a flag and half the time their leaders are on the field laughing and joking around. Dangerfield is obsessed with the camera. Selwood is probably the kind that this thread is calling for but who else at Geelong that has kept them up and thereabouts for a decade? Nobody that fits the 'angry about a loss' types that is being called for here.

I saw Nick Maxwell mentioned in this thread. Geezus Christ - of all the people to refer to. Barry Hall? Come on. Let's get serious here - if you're referencing Barry Hall it really just means you like people who get angry.

We don't want a team of Brendan Goddard's who point and yell and their teammates and throw the pretzels on the ground after every loss. Or Barry Hall's who will get suspended every few weeks. I want guys like Nash who get everything out of themselves and don't need that alpha crap to physically intimidate and beat opponents. I want guys like Will Day who got crunched repeatedly (and injured) as a young player but kept getting up and is now strong enough to take the heat and to change the game when playing in the midfield.

We've got the youngest midfield going around and they are winning their bit every week. Newcombe came from the bush league, Nash from another country, Day developed from twig to rig - all of these guys overcame some amazing things to perform at a level that matches some of the best in the competition. This is the leadership and drive a club needs. We are still miles off but the thing we want is happening right in front of our eyes.

Maybe if Newcombe punched the ground after a loss, or if Day screamed in a teammates face after conceding a goal it would soothe some of the testorone needs of the fans . Maybe a bit of footage of Sam Mitchell tearing strips off one of the players would feel good. Probably Chad. People would love that. Maybe if more players pointed to their jumpers after kicking a goal. Or swore when they made a mistake. (Unless the umpire decides that's 50m, then it's horrible leadership and a bad example).

Sorry - I've descended into sarcasm. But my point is that most of the best leaders in the AFL don't make a show of it for the fans. They just keep going and do it for their teammates.

Great post

 

[Mitchell Madness]

I'm gonna get on a bit of a rant here.

There's a bit of an old school obsession with wanting leaders to be angry when things aren't going well. To demonstrate frustration and aggression at teammates to pull them into line if they're not doing well enough. I find it so weird.

Geelong just won a flag and half the time their leaders are on the field laughing and joking around. Dangerfield is obsessed with the camera. Selwood is probably the kind that this thread is calling for but who else at Geelong that has kept them up and thereabouts for a decade? Nobody that fits the 'angry about a loss' types that is being called for here.

I saw Nick Maxwell mentioned in this thread. Geezus Christ - of all the people to refer to. Barry Hall? Come on. Let's get serious here - if you're referencing Barry Hall it really just means you like people who get angry.

We don't want a team of Brendan Goddard's who point and yell and their teammates and throw the pretzels on the ground after every loss. Or Barry Hall's who will get suspended every few weeks. I want guys like Nash who get everything out of themselves and don't need that alpha crap to physically intimidate and beat opponents. I want guys like Will Day who got crunched repeatedly (and injured) as a young player but kept getting up and is now strong enough to take the heat and to change the game when playing in the midfield.

We've got the youngest midfield going around and they are winning their bit every week. Newcombe came from the bush league, Nash from another country, Day developed from twig to rig - all of these guys overcame some amazing things to perform at a level that matches some of the best in the competition. This is the leadership and drive a club needs. We are still miles off but the thing we want is happening right in front of our eyes.

Maybe if Newcombe punched the ground after a loss, or if Day screamed in a teammates face after conceding a goal it would soothe some of the testorone needs of the fans . Maybe a bit of footage of Sam Mitchell tearing strips off one of the players would feel good. Probably Chad. People would love that. Maybe if more players pointed to their jumpers after kicking a goal. Or swore when they made a mistake. (Unless the umpire decides that's 50m, then it's horrible leadership and a bad example).

Sorry - I've descended into sarcasm. But my point is that most of the best leaders in the AFL don't make a show of it for the fans. They just keep going and do it for their teammates.

I don't think anyone wants to see aggression at teammates etc.
I think people are concerned with the lack of effort at the contest on multiple occasions.
I think many fans want to see that gutsy effort when a player is spent, where he pushes to do something. Think Campbell Brown in the 07 elimination final. Exhausted, he sprinted back and unsuccessfully spoilt a shot at goal, simultaneously wrapping himself around the post.
Unable to run properly, he sprints off to ensure an even contest for the next ball up before collapsing.

 

[extractasam]

The underlying hallmark imo of all our grand finals 2013-2015 was our controlled aggression. The 3 peat tbf was a long time in the making and that group was something else I’m not sure we will see again in our time.

You just work with what you’ve got and the culture will build itself. There is literally no point trying to be like anybody else, as much as I wish we sometimes had a harder edge.

I see what you are saying and it’s extremely hard to describe but we don’t feel intimidating. In my personal experiences in sport teams that are intimidating are hard to play against regardless of their skill. We don’t look or seem to be in that category at all yet. I do believe however we have skilled enough players to one day win more games than we lose

 

[seysearles]

What’s your fascination with posting random pics of players.

I’m giving visual examples of the optics that the sort of players im referring to project. That face that says I’m not ******* taking this. Mitchell Lewis does it also and it’s fantastic. He sends the message to the other players and the fans that he’s invested.

Quite a few posters have reacted over a poor performance on the weekend ignoring the previous 3 positive performances .

As the team grows , develops and gains confidence we will see leaders .
We have them now its just not evident on game day due to where the team is .

Its the long patience game if your willing to go for the ride .

Just for the record, I’m not reacting to the loss on the weekend at all. I’ve really enjoyed the season so far and I’m very happy with the fact that we are rebuilding and how we are tracking in terms of bringing in young talent. I’m just making a general observation about what sort of mentality and optics I want to see coming from the team. I want to see the players taking losing personally and setting really high standards. As a supporter it makes you more passionate when you know the players at the club are myopically focused on fostering a winning culture and driving success.

 

[kirbatron]

Nick Watson & Harley Reid look like Alpha types....

Day, Ward, Mcdonald, Lewis, Newk etc are very self driven & competitive. Whether they possess that outward "follow me'' vibe lets see. I think Day has it.

seysearles Be patient. You are setting an expectation & benchmark to one of the all time great leaders & Captains.

Mitchell has started to lay the foundation - it needs a few more years to build & we will see what we have then.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

I don't think anyone wants to see aggression at teammates etc.
I think people are concerned with the lack of effort at the contest on multiple occasions.
I think many fans want to see that gutsy effort when a player is spent, where he pushes to do something. Think Campbell Brown in the 07 elimination final. Exhausted, he sprinted back and unsuccessfully spoilt a shot at goal, simultaneously wrapping himself around the post.
Unable to run properly, he sprints off to ensure an even contest for the next ball up before collapsing.

But tell me it wouldn't have been better for the team if Brown in fact had the awareness of the goal post and did not injure his knee at all?

Yes, great determination but also dumb as a box of hammers. You've illustrated the point quite well.

We're applauding clumsiness - and pushing through the adversity caused by the clumsiness.

Conversely, Buddy was also pushing himself to the limit including nailing a long range shot which takes power and skill while super depleted in the 120th minute of the game. Crawford ran his arse off right to the final siren (was he playing on Riccutio?). Neither of these players ran in to a point post so nobody talks about how hard they worked all game.

This is what's weird.

 

[Roddy]

Dear OP, winning 13 Premierships since 1961 is a culture of success.

Yep, and this in turn breeds monumentally entitled fans who don’t understand how football clubs and rebuilds work, who start sooking like crybabies when we don’t win the flag every year…