Discussion Hickey and Longer

[Saint_Dos]

I think ruckmen are overrated and overvalued, apart from the elite few. A good midfield or structure more than makes up for a below average ruckman. Take Sydney and Hawthorn, for example. Even us in 2009.

Are you Grant Thomas?

 

[AuntieBarrels]

I think ruckmen are overrated and overvalued, apart from the elite few. A good midfield or structure more than makes up for a below average ruckman. Take Sydney and Hawthorn, for example. Even us in 2009.

Steven King was an All-Australian and a 2X B&F for Geelong
and Michael Gardiner was also an All-Australian one year...
They were great players for us also and were crucial for our push for the flag in '09.
Ruckmen are very important.

 

[Joffaboy]

Don tknow where anyone gets the idea that Hickey is not physical. Very physical on the weekend.

And whomever said keep Longer and Pierce and move on Hickey, lol. I would not be getting rid of Hickey over Pierce or Holmes, that is for sure.

 

[ike2112]

I don't think we'd need to draft another ruckman. I would look at a kid, but if we got rid of Hickey, I'd expect Holmes and Pierce to start fighting for that 2nd ruck/backup spot.

I wasn't thinking draft, that's why I said middle-age recruit. Rucks especially are as well being recruited when they're older. I'm talking like an emergency filled-out option like Derickx or Trent West or their future equivalent; not guys you'd want to rely on as your primary ruck, but a reliable body in case the starter gets injured and Pierce can't hack it.
I like the promise Holmes shows, but I think people underestimate how far back he's coming from, his leap is great but I think if he plays an AFL game this year, his opponent would break the SC points record for ruckmen.

 

[ike2112]

You really need two quality ruckmen to push for a flag, a lack of depth in your ruck stocks can cost you a flag as we all know from the disaster in 97 when we lost both Everitt and Vidovic, the GT era where we were relying on makeshift ruckmen and the Ross Lyon era where we were relying on a washed up King and injury prone Gardiner as our ruckmen.

This time last year Hickey was looking like a gun ruckman and everyone was hailing it as a master trade recruiting him, now all of a sudden people here are suggesting he should be trade bait.

Longer has been good so far this year and has been pretty durable but you never know if loss of form or injury might strike him so I'd be reluctant to push a quality ruckman like Hickey out the door especially when I think he has more potential as a ruck/forward than Longer.

Personally I still prefer Hickey. Longer is a battler, and I get why his style appeals, but he still has a bit to go.
But the ideal is that they both turn out good, and one of them adds other things to their game (Hickey looking the more likely). It looks like we'll get a provisional look this weekend.

My view is you don't need 2 quality ruckmen; and if you want 2, you add the second as the cherry on top of the cake you've built (see Port signing Ryder). Right now we're still seiving the flour. If we have 2 top rucks, I'd rather see us trade one if it meant it got us Shiel or a similar player of similar quality next year. But not leave us too short-handed; say end of 2016 Hickey looks like a top-10 ruckamn, and we can trade Longer for a top 6 pick, we absolutely do it. And use a 3rd or 4th rounder to trade for someone as a backup.

 

[AuntieBarrels]

Don tknow where anyone gets the idea that Hickey is not physical. Very physical on the weekend.

And whomever said keep Longer and Pierce and move on Hickey, lol. I would not be getting rid of Hickey over Pierce or Holmes, that is for sure.

I don't think he meant that he would prefer Hickey over Pierce and Holmes. It's because we have Longer and he is our no.1 ruckman at the moment. Obviously a lot of teams play with one main ruckman with their tall forwards pinch-hitting in the ruck. If Hickey isn't our no.1 ruckman, he would probably want to leave to a team where he is the no.1 ruckman, since that is the sole reason he came over to the saints.

 

[AuntieBarrels]

I like the promise Holmes shows, but I think people underestimate how far back he's coming from, his leap is great but I think if he plays an AFL game this year, his opponent would break the SC points record for ruckmen.

I beg to differ, Holmes would destroy the hit out count.

 

[Plugger35]

I think ruckmen are overrated and overvalued, apart from the elite few. A good midfield or structure more than makes up for a below average ruckman. Take Sydney and Hawthorn, for example. Even us in 2009.

Sydney got smashed in the ruck in the GF last year with Pyke and a part timer Tippett as their ruckman, with Mumford and Pyke playing together as their ruckmen they won a flag in 2012 against the same team.

Barring Sydney all the premiership contenders have good depth in their ruck stocks. Hawthorn have McEvoy, Ceglar and Hale as their ruckmen, Freo have Sandilands, Zac Clarke and Griffen, Port have Lobbe, Ryder and Redden.

We have Longer, Hickey and Holmes/Pierce who should all be around when we push for a flag in a few years, that's a quality ruck combo we should be looking to keep.

 

[Joffaboy]

I don't think he meant that he would prefer Hickey over Pierce and Holmes. It's because we have Longer and he is our no.1 ruckman at the moment. Obviously a lot of teams play with one main ruckman with their tall forwards pinch-hitting in the ruck. If Hickey isn't our no.1 ruckman, he would probably want to leave to a team where he is the no.1 ruckman, since that is the sole reason he came over to the saints.

Maybe. So we have Longer @ No.1 ruck, Hickey leaves then Longer does his ACL. Do we get Jason Blake out of retirement?

 

[ike2112]

Barring Sydney all the premiership contenders have good depth in their ruck stocks. Hawthorn have McEvoy, Ceglar and Hale as their ruckmen, Freo have Sandilands, Zac Clarke and Griffen, Port have Lobbe, Ryder and Redden.

Hence I'm saying 2016, trade Longer for a top 6 pick that in turn gets us a player of the quality of Shiel.
And trade a 4th rounder for a player of the quality of Ceglar.

Its downgrading our backup ruck, to get us a gun MF.

 

[mysainters]

I'll try not to derail this into a Hickey vs Longer thread (too late..)

I rate Longer very highly and have so since we recruited him. He's a work in progress but has shown glimpses that when he matures he will become a very formidable ruck in the competition. Importantly he is very aggressive, very durable and also very athletic with a huge jump. His around the ground work is improving and I've got no doubt once he puts it all together he will be light years ahead of Hickey.

Hickey lacks a lot of things Longer exceeds at. He's not overly aggressive or durable. He doesn't have the same presence in the ruck and gets bullied easily.

I do acknowledge at this point Hickey is ahead of longer around the ground but it's easier for Longer to develop that aspect than Hickey becoming durable and more aggressive.


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Early call IMHO

Hickey has a good footy brain, this is important.

As I said, just curious

 

[God Save Max King]

Hence I'm saying 2016, trade Longer for a top 6 pick that in turn gets us a player of the quality of Shiel.
And trade a 4th rounder for a player of the quality of Ceglar.

Its downgrading our backup ruck, to get us a gun MF.

That's suggesting that Longer becomes an elite ruckman. And that there is a quality depth ruckman available. And that we can compensate for the loss of a player that is elite in his position.

 

[TheLastEmperor]

Early call IMHO

Hickey has a good footy brain, this is important.

As I said, just curious

All good. I'm happy to explain my opinion even if it's against the majority.


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[ike2112]

That's suggesting that Longer becomes an elite ruckman. And that there is a quality depth ruckman available. And that we can compensate for the loss of a player that is elite in his position.

Yes there's lot of ifs.

But the other option is we keep both, and if they both develop we pretty much have to play both. Hence this week might be the first experimental step towards that.
To be honest either way we win.

We only don't win, if one (or both) of them doesn't develop, or they both develop but we piss one of them off by giving them nearly zero gametime so they end up leaving, but we're over a barrel on compensation.

 

[Big Mart]

Say it again

Hickey is underwhelming atm

His numbers at AFL level for a 24yo are average
10ppg 13HO 0.3gpg 1.3CM
Longer at 21yo
8ppg 25HO 0.5CM


At VFL level he is nothing special... I'd expect a quality 6'7" AFL Ruckman to be dominant.

 

[gringo2011]

Say it again

Hickey is underwhelming atm

His numbers at AFL level for a 24yo are average
10ppg 13HO 0.3gpg 1.3CM
Longer at 21yo
8ppg 25HO 0.5CM


At VFL level he is nothing special... I'd expect a quality 6'7" AFL Ruckman to be dominant.

How many has he played? He's still building as a player and you would have to admit most rucks take time. Will Minson took into his late 20s to come good. Same with Jolly, The big Russian, Ivan Maric etc.

 

[Geronimo#]

A good team usually includes a big tough ruckman that opposition midfielders worry about actually getting hurt by. That love throwing their weight around. Like Mumford. Longer could be that

 

[TheLonieRanger]

Sydney got smashed in the ruck in the GF last year with Pyke and a part timer Tippett as their ruckman, with Mumford and Pyke playing together as their ruckmen they won a flag in 2012 against the same team.

Barring Sydney all the premiership contenders have good depth in their ruck stocks. Hawthorn have McEvoy, Ceglar and Hale as their ruckmen, Freo have Sandilands, Zac Clarke and Griffen, Port have Lobbe, Ryder and Redden.

We have Longer, Hickey and Holmes/Pierce who should all be around when we push for a flag in a few years, that's a quality ruck combo we should be looking to keep.

makes for a good argument

 

[Macgruber]

makes for a good argument

Ruckman are very important . Michael Gardiner was a gun!!! Need another like him IMHO!!

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Ruckman are very important . Michael Gardiner was a gun!!! Need another like him IMHO!!

I had a massive man crush on Gardy

 

[Kilroy]

I had a massive man crush on Gardy

One good lookin' rooster ...

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

One good lookin' rooster ...

View attachment 129637

Spoke to him at the B&F after he had retired and asked him if he had any interest in still being involved in footy in any way regarding coaching etc etc
He just skoled his beer and looked at me and said " Nope"
I think he was telling the truth
Interesting dude

 

[Stewart66]

A good team usually includes a big tough ruckman that opposition midfielders worry about actually getting hurt by. That love throwing their weight around. Like Mumford. Longer could be that

Longer is that and is a baby in ruck is showing benefits of getting games last year.

Really don't understand this thread continually asking about Ruckman last problem they have.

Currently have the worst midfield ... By the length of the Flemington straight .
Losing shortly all time great at CHF .
Holes in list are not Ruckman!

 

[mysainters]

Wow, mods here get it done...like

 

[God Save Max King]

Steven King was an All-Australian and a 2X B&F for Geelong
and Michael Gardiner was also an All-Australian one year...
They were great players for us also and were crucial for our push for the flag in '09.
Ruckmen are very important.

Both of those players weren't nearly as good when we were having a crack at the flag. All you need are 2 role players who add depth, players at wont concede too much and will fill their spot in the structure at ruck. No point having 2 star ruckmen, IMO. It's wasted currency. Having 1 star, who isn't asked to do too much (I.e. Backed up by an elite midfield) is obviously ideal.