Aboriginal & TSI Indigenous Drafting

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cormick

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 13, 2007
5,926
15
em dub
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Burgers, City

I'D HEARD the whispers before and, since Liam Jurrah's dramas of the past week, the whispers have grown louder - AFL clubs are starting to back away from recruiting indigenous players.
As a result of the Liam Jurrah saga, in his article in today's Age, Martin Flanagan raises some interesting points in regards to the drafting of Indigenous players into the AFL.

On the day of and those following the breaking of the story that Jurrah had been arrested, both the Herald Sun and Age rushed through emotive articles on the issues of culture and cultural division within the AFL. Martin Flanagan, who I respect immensely as a journalist and who, unlike many, doesn't seem to write on topical issues for the sake of argumentation, has followed up his initial stream of Jurrah and Indigenous-related works with today's article, stating that AFL recruiters have, and will continue to, shy away from Indigenous talent because of issues the likes of Jurrah have brought to the AFL and specific clubs. 'They [Indigenous players] are "too hard" and "too much trouble"' Flanagan writes, not merely expressing his opinion, but voicing 'whispers' he has previously heard.

On face-value, there is merit in what is said: in last year's National, Pre Season and Rookie Drafts, having been widely tipped, not only on forums such as this, but also through the media, to be an early pick for a club willing to 'risk' the problems that would arise from drafting a kid from such a different cultural background (read: an Indigenous player from a remote community), Key-Position prospect Waylon Manson was overlooked entirely. Draft expert Emma Quayle rated him in her list of the 25 most talented players which she compiles each year. Despite outstanding form, including outperforming former AFL star Brendan Fevola in the Northern Territory League, Manson, from the tiny community of Billiluna in the Kimberley region of Western Australia, wasn't selected.

However, in deference to my view, Flanagan puts the 'blame' of this onto the AFL. The AFL needs to act and needs to act quickly he says, firstly as though there is a problem and secondly as though the AFL is at fault. Despite the non-drafting of Manson, I, in all my amateur wisdom, don't see a problem in AFL recruiting. My team Richmond, who has had two recent Indigenous selections backfire as the individuals, Relton Roberts and Troy Taylor, have quit the club and returned to their respective communities and who is referenced in Flanagan's article as the team that "passed up [Buddy Franklin] in the draft because they thought he was trouble" just last year acquired another rookie prospect, Indigenous player, Gibson Turner, from the Rovers Football Club in the Northern Territory. In the 2004 draft Flanagan claims Richmond overlooked Franklin in, Richmond selected another Indigenous Territorian, Richard Tambling. Moreover, not confined to the drafting of Richmond, Flanagan's article suggests many, if not all AFL recruiters are beginning to overlook Aboriginal players that might struggle to adapt from community life to city living. Hawthorn's drafting of Amos Frank, the Bulldogs' Zeph Skinner, Fremantle's Casey Sibosado and so on, proves that Indigenous players are still feted and celebrated by AFL recruiters.

The Manson non-selection, my guess as to the root of the hysteria worked up by articles the like of Flanagan's, is an interesting one. Having lived nearby Billiluna for the best part of the past two years, I can understand and recognise the strong pull-factor that would keep the people I worked with, in their community, or drive them back to their community after a short period away. I'm guessing Manson, coming from very similar circumstances, would experience a similar bond to his community. Remembering that AFL isn't for everyone - Nathan Ablett being a prime example of a great talent disinterested in playing professionally - I'm guessing AFL recruiters believed Manson would struggle to adapt to the culture shock that moving from his community to whichever city held the club that drafted him.

With internationally-acclaimed programs including 2011 Beyond Sport winner Flying Boomerangs and QANTAS Kickstart, the AFL is doing more for Indigenous youth than any other organisation save for the government, in the country. To suggest that the AFL isn't doing enough for Indigenous players, to me, is just plain wrong.
 
Forgot to add...

If it truly were becoming a problem, that Indigenous players were being overlooked because of problems that drafting them may incur, then an idea Kevin Sheedy floated a couple of years ago which, especially on here but also in the media, was shot down as racist, seems like a realistic possibility. Sheedy suggested that the AFL should set up something akin to the rookie list for Indigenous players to join from where clubs don't use valuable draft picks yet Indigenous players still get a chance at making AFL lists. Something similar to the International Rookie Scheme, I'd presume, but cannot find the article. However, until it's proven to be a problem, the AFL has no worries.
 

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I guess then the contrary argument to this is the story of Eddie Betts. AFL and being selected completely turned his life around. He himself said in an article in the Herald Sun several years ago that had he not been selected by Carlton and taken a real interest in AFL he'd most likely be in prison right now.
 
From having read the article..

Broad problem...AFL clubs are starting to think recruiting some aboriginal players is more trouble than it's worth.

'solution' have a big summit meeting, which will doubtless tell the clubs they need to do more.

Result, if such players were debatably too much trouble before, they're even more so now so the debate is solved.


The clear stars will still be drafted, but the 'maybes', particularly from the rural/tribal areas will drift down the draft and possibly be missed entirely.
 
The clear stars will still be drafted, but the 'maybes', particularly from the rural/tribal areas will drift down the draft and possibly be missed entirely.
Therein lies Flanagan's concern. According to his article (well summarised :thumbsu:), players from 'rural/tribal areas' won't be given the same access to compete at the top level as suburban players, because issues such as home-sickness seems to be more prevalent thus the player more risky.

I disagree with the premise, but if it were true, it is a problem and something semi-radical such as Sheedy's proposal might be necessary.
 
So will clubs stop drafting white kids from the country because alot of them get to the big city, piss fart around too much and end up back in the sticks within 3 years?
 
So will clubs stop drafting white kids from the country because alot of them get to the big city, piss fart around too much and end up back in the sticks within 3 years?
Short answer: no.
N Ablett aside, I struggle to think of one non-Indigenous player who turned his back on a promising career to the same extent and at the young age of a Troy Taylor or, to a lesser extent Relton Roberts. The 'go home' factor for some Indigenous players, especially those from remote communities, is seemingly a bigger factor than for non-Indigenous players.
It would also be a challenge to find a non-Indigenous kid capable of playing at a similarly high level to Brendan Fevola, kick bags of goals in a senior competition and still remain undrafted.
 
So will clubs stop drafting white kids from the country because alot of them get to the big city, piss fart around too much and end up back in the sticks within 3 years?

Yes!

Well, not stop, but it will be considered.

They'll look at as many factors as they can, and things like how they'll fit in, 'likelihood of hitting the piss' and 'go home factor' will apply.

I'm sure recruiters already do all this, and not just for Aboriginal players...Didn't Jack Darling drop down in the draft for similar concerns?
 
Yes!

Well, not stop, but it will be considered.

They'll look at as many factors as they can, and things like how they'll fit in, 'likelihood of hitting the piss' and 'go home factor' will apply.

I'm sure recruiters already do all this, and not just for Aboriginal players...Didn't Jack Darling drop down in the draft for similar concerns?

Adelaide, and I'm sure the other non-Victorian teams are similar, now has a policy that when it's our turn to make a selection, if we have more than one name on the board that we consider to be equal in all other respects, if one or more are Vic Metro kids they are declined in favour of the SA/Vic Country/WA/Other kid.

It's been our experience that Vic Metro kids are the worst offenders at suffering 'culture shock' by having to move to Adelaide, and have a greater propensity for demanding a return back to Melbourne as soon as they are able.
 
so this only happens to indigenous players? All players at draft camps are interviewed and profiled. Im sure there are players who turn out to be dead beats/no hopers who the clubs know will only cause trouble and are therefor overlooked.

Aboriginal representation is at its highest and players like Rioli, Yarran, Goodes, Franklin are some of the most exciting. There will always be those overlooked because they have problems and its fair enough. Clubs need to look after no.1 and that is their club.
 

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Well there's a surprise, another article by Flanagan about indigenous football issues.
90% of his articles, Aborigine related
6% Irish related
3% Tasmanian related.

The remaining 1% with nothing about those 3 are presumably filed under the wrong byline.

I find the last paragraph in his article to be surprising to say the least.

The argument can be summarised simply. In 2012, the face of the game is an indigenous player, Hawthorn's Buddy Franklin. Richmond passed him up in the draft because they thought he was trouble.
Maybe Buddy dropped to #5 because the clubs thought the 4 players preceding him were better.
He had a relatively poor u18 carnival and there were question marks IIRC regarding his workrate.

Deledio was the consensus no 1 pick, Roughead was chosen by Hawthorn at #2, Griffen selected by WBDogs at #3 (and Clayton has stated he viewed him as the best player in the draft) and another indigenous player in Tambling was chosen, by Richmond, at #4.

But lets not facts get in the way of Flanagan slandering Franklin.
I'm damn sure if another journo wrote an opinion piece stating that clubs overlooked Buddy "because they thought he was trouble", then Flanagan would be all over them for stereotyping Aborigines as trouble makers.

Even if it were true that is the reason Buddy was not selected by Richmond, why is it an 'aborigine issue'?


Clubs make judgement calls all the time.

I think it is generally agreed that Jack Darling wasn't selected until pick 26 in 2010 because of concerns regarding his off field behaviour.

Finally with regard to the OP's comments regarding Manson.
Yes he was overlooked, but as the OP identifies, Amos Frank, an indigenous player from remote SA, who does not have English as his first language was selected.

Again another judgement call.

PS I should add that I found cormick's post more interesting and balanced than Flanagan's.
 
Adelaide, and I'm sure the other non-Victorian teams are similar, now has a policy that when it's our turn to make a selection, if we have more than one name on the board that we consider to be equal in all other respects, if one or more are Vic Metro kids they are declined in favour of the SA/Vic Country/WA/Other kid.

It's been our experience that Vic Metro kids are the worst offenders at suffering 'culture shock' by having to move to Adelaide, and have a greater propensity for demanding a return back to Melbourne as soon as they are able.

I'm sure most clubs prefer local ( or 'not local for anyone else' ) players for similar reasons. Not sure that Vic Metro is better or worse though.
 
Finally with regard to the OP's comments regarding Manson.
Yes he was overlooked, but Amos Frank, an indigenous player from remote SA, who does not have English as his first language was selected.

Again another judgement call.

Richmond picked up a rookie called Gibson Turner.

There was an article in WAToday a few days back about him. He got a scholarship to a boarding school in Adelaide with 5 other tribal kids...He was the only one who stuck it out.

Now, one (or all) of those other 5 kids may have been a better footballer, but if you were going to recruit someone, then surely the kid who stuck it out is going to be looked at favorably.
 
I'm sure most clubs prefer local ( or 'not local for anyone else' ) players for similar reasons. Not sure that Vic Metro is better or worse though.

That's the thing though, it turns out Vic Metro really is worse - to enough of an extent that our recruiter has admitted to the policy of shying away from Vic Metro kids when they have an option. Probably has much to do with the fact that the other states and Vic Country kids are already (with some exceptions of course) accepting of the fact that there's a 90% chance or more that they'll be leaving home to play football, and for Vic Country kids it's 100%.

Vic Metro kids all seem to hold onto the fantasy that they'll be staying home and playing, because there are so many Melbourne clubs how could they not? We've seen some pretty visceral, negative, instant reactions on draft day to being selected by SA and WA teams over the years.
 
so this only happens to indigenous players? All players at draft camps are interviewed and profiled. Im sure there are players who turn out to be dead beats/no hopers who the clubs know will only cause trouble and are therefor overlooked.

Aboriginal representation is at its highest and players like Rioli, Yarran, Goodes, Franklin are some of the most exciting. There will always be those overlooked because they have problems and its fair enough. Clubs need to look after no.1 and that is their club.
I think it's more common for issues such as walking out on the club to arise from those of remote and Indigenous backgrounds. I have no facts to back this up, but Nathan Krakouer, Rex Liddy, the aforementioned Roberts and Taylor, Wonaemirri all seemingly gave up the chance to play at the top level when the chance was still there, whereas Nathan Ablett and to an extent Will Thursfield are two that spring to mind as non-Indigenous that have done likewise. Due to the higher proportion of Indigenous players quitting, walking out, returning home or however you want it worded, Flanagan suggests recruiters won't give future Indigenous draft-hopefuls from similar communities the same opportunities to make it onto an AFL list and do what the likes of Rioli, Yarran, Goodes, Franklin and co have been able to.

Regardless of background or upbringing, if a player is a 'dead-beat' or 'no-hoper', then no one would begrudge recruiters overlooking them, but Flanagan infers that Indigenous players are being overlooked solely because of how and where they were brought up. As I said in the OP, I don't think it is happening, but if it is, I agree to some extent with him that something ought be done.
 
I enjoy Martin Flanagan's articles but think he is asking too much of the AFL and footy in general to fix up problems in the Aboriginal community ( particularly remote areas ) that successive Governments have failed to address.
 
do what the likes of Rioli, Yarran, Goodes, Franklin and co have been able to.

Rioli hardly counts, he left the Tiwis for Darwin, then Darwin for Melbourne, while he was still a child, and was drafted out of Scotch College. A suburbs kid.

Goodes bounced around a variety of places with his Mother from an early age, and I find it unlikely he'd be heavily attached to a particular place or deeply integrated into a tribal structure given that history.

Franklin lived in an average town in the Wheat Belt rather than a remote indigenous settlement, and went to high school in Perth.

AFL recruiters aren't going to shy away from all indigenous recruits - just the ones who have lived their entire lives in small townships, heavily integrated into a tribal society, far enough away from average towns and regional centres to prevent much in the way of interaction with mainstream Australia. Indigenous players from the suburbs, and from the large towns or with a good portion of their developing years in a city high school, are still going to get just as many chances.
 
Richmond picked up a rookie called Gibson Turner.

There was an article in WAToday a few days back about him. He got a scholarship to a boarding school in Adelaide with 5 other tribal kids...He was the only one who stuck it out.
Tribal kids?
Gibsons Mother is full blood but his father is only slightly coloured.They live in Alice Springs and are very civilised and well spoken people.
Not tribal as such so maybe there is the difference.
 
Heard Dean Rioli explain that his background as a Tiwi Islander had virtually nothing at all in common with guys like Jurrah & Skinner from remote communities who had little in common with rural communities that give us Goodes, the Krakouers & the Bennells.
Rioli was not sure he was qualified to speak on behalf of the indigenous footy community - I'd suggest he has a better take on things than most.
 
I'd say it is a bigger punt on a Vic Metro lad from one of the colleges than it is on an aboriginal from a remote community for the Crows.

Melbourne is a bigger and more exciting city than Adelaide and when your friends and family already live there it is hardly surprising that so many want to return home.

That is not to be critical of Adelaide, but is far easier to go from Ballarat or other such places to Adelaide than it is to go from Melbourne to Adelaide.
 
I'd say it is a bigger punt on a Vic Metro lad from one of the colleges than it is on an aboriginal from a remote community for the Crows.

Melbourne is a bigger and more exciting city than Adelaide and when your friends and family already live there it is hardly surprising that so many want to return home.

That is not to be critical of Adelaide, but is far easier to go from Ballarat or other such places to Adelaide than it is to go from Melbourne to Adelaide.

Understandable, but I wouldn't say it's the same.

A Vic Metro kid going home will usually be traded, and even if you don't get fair value from that trade you get something.

You get nothing when a kid from remote areas goes home.

I dare say places like Adelaide would be easier for Aboriginal kids to adjust to due to the same reasons you mentioned that might turn off Vic Metro kids.
 

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