Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 shot down 295 dead.

[Chameleon75]

I think the master plan is to split Russia up into a number of smaller weaker states, apparently the first step is to surround them as much as possible with missile defence systems, analogous to Russia having missiles on Cuba.

like how they tried after ww1 with the allied occupation, splitting Russia into zones. Always been a goal, resources.

 

[Chameleon75]

The Europeans would find themselves in a spot of bother if they tried to freeze Russia out of the gas market. There are two proposed gas lines in the, ah, pipeline from Azerbaijan but they are more for the south east/baltic region and Italy, with the former terminating in Austria, but these will not have the capacity to support Europe's gas needs. If a proposal was put forward by the major Euro players to build more to meet their needs then I would suspect the next winter would be very cold indeed as the Russian supply dwindles and Russian activities would escalate around Azerbaijan.

Ukraine are in the difficult position of having Russian gas running across their land by various pipes which service Romania, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Italy and southern Germany (15% of euro consumption). Gazprom also operate the North Stream and South Stream pipelines which provide gas to all the big players in Europe but the Russians want a compliant Ukraine so that they can guarantee supply through to Europe through all avenues. The Ukrainians want to shake off the yoke of reliance on Russian gas (Gazprom reckons they owe them 4.5 billion Euros) and to supply the 15% of Europe with their own gas that Gazprom currently supply, hence this whole dispute. Russia don't play fair, and they won't play fair with this either. Many euro nations have contracts with Gazprom for supply until 2025-2030 and Europe is only going to hungrier for that supply. Russia will not give up any of that without a flight and I doubt anyone will stand up to them anyway. Besides, the recipient countries have invested heavily in a financial sense already in the North and South lines (Gazprom maintained 51% ownership) so I doubt they will now walk away from that for moral reasons.

I also find it interesting looking at the map of the south stream on the Gazprom website. Anyone else notice something interesting? http://www.gazprom.com/f/posts/85/290063/south-stream-map-en.jpg

besides crimea being incorporated into russia, the pipe line passes through Bulgaria, a nato country. Bring ukraine into nato and you control their gas lines to europe.

 

[Zidane98]

IA 655 was flying with it's identity transponder on, which identified the plane as civilian. The US has never apologised or admitted mistakes and only settled before Iran took them to the International courts.
You seem quite content to push your narrative that holds Russia solely responsible and seem to advocate for regime change.

The difference between MH 17 & IA 655 was the US carrier group was under attack by Iranian military boats at the time and attempted at least 3 times to raise the plane by radio which unfortunately the IA 655 pilots ignored.

The Russian backed rebels were not in a live gun battle at the time as far as we know and apparently made no attempt to contact the aircraft warning it may be shot down because it was in "their" airspace. Also unlike the Russians no denial by the yanks and no trying to blame others. The delay in settlement was down to the Iranian government wanting the settlement paid to them rather than directly to the families.

 

[GarnerSmash]

besides crimea being incorporated into russia, the pipe line passes through Bulgaria, a nato country. Bring ukraine into nato and you control their gas lines to europe.

It was the Crimea thing I found interesting. A fait acompli it seems.

Gazprom own 50% of the south stream in total with no host country owning more than them. But I guess the reality is that the host countries can 'take over' the gas lines, the gas still comes from Russia. Taking over the gas lines would be an act of war as far as Russia are concerned. Seems to me that Putin has Europe's nads in his icy grip.

 

[Norwood1878]

The difference between MH 17 & IA 655 was the US carrier group was under attack by Iranian military boats at the time and attempted at least 3 times to raise the plane by radio which unfortunately the IA 655 pilots ignored.

The Russian backed rebels were not in a live gun battle at the time as far as we know and apparently made no attempt to contact the aircraft warning it may be shot down because it was in "their" airspace. Also unlike the Russians no denial by the yanks and no trying to blame others. The delay in settlement was down to the Iranian government wanting the settlement paid to them rather than directly to the families.

Do you have any other evidence to present that is not directly or indirectly related to or spawned from "the" youtube vid?

 

[slicedndiced]

A lot of what I was wrote was motivated by how angry I feel about this, but I do have some reasons why I thought it would work fine.

Yeah, I get you're anger and I'm pretty sure we all do.

Whether its worth the risk is a whole different question

And that's the point, isn't it?

Despite your reasoned arguments to the contrary, your idea leaves unknown scenarios that are too innumerable to count or possibly imagine and too horrific to consider.

One idiotic act/accident/incident from either side could kick off a conflict beyond our imagination.

The MSM continuously focus upon the Middle East, but this region holds far, far more potential as a flashpoint for "global" conflict than any other in the current circumstances.

 

[QuietB]

It was the Crimea thing I found interesting. A fait acompli it seems.

Gazprom own 50% of the south stream in total with no host country owning more than them. But I guess the reality is that the host countries can 'take over' the gas lines, the gas still comes from Russia. Taking over the gas lines would be an act of war as far as Russia are concerned. Seems to me that Putin has Europe's nads in his icy grip.

Exactly. NATO already controls the gas lines, they travel trough and terminate at Europe. They are useless unless Russia puts gas in them though.

 

[Freo2012]

I would have thought this thread would be left to the actual topic - the shooting down of MH17. All this other "diverting" discussion is a very cruel attempt to de-humanise the actual event. Perhaps you lot really should started separate thread about the overall situation rather than try to divert and play down this one. They were real people, children - how would you feel if your kids died on that flight?

a few points:

1. All preliminary information points to it being shot down by a fairly modern missile system, which given the altitude all have the capability of identifying commercial from non-commercial planes. Anyone trained sufficiently to operate the system would also be fully aware of these identification features. There are also intercepted communications that point to this being the case, including separatists own social media sites (quickly deleted when it was found to be a commercial plane). there are also intercepted communications from another group of the separatists earlier in the flight plan identifying the plane as commercial.

2. If 1. above is correct then it is a matter of by whom, highest probability is the Russian separatists, and given the communications intercepted and the attempts by Russia and separatists to cover up, get rid of evidence (further communications show this). So who trained them? and who do they report to? Again there is very clear knowledge and evidence that the separatists report back to Russian masters in this whole matter. If they were trained in the equipment why weren't they shown the very integrated and essential plane identification features?

3. Are Malaysian airlines also culpable? even if it is just morally. After MH370 went down a logical person would probably think they should have placed higher focus on their internal "risk management" - every organisation in the world has risk management strategies, the bigger the organisation the more formalized and procedured. Given other airlines had for months avoided this fly route because of their own risk management (and which Malaysian airlines would have been fully aware, or do they not know what goes on in their own industry?) Malaysian airlines because of MH370 possibly should have been amongst the first to avoid flying in this region. Logically you would think that simple risk management states that another "event" so close to MH370 in time would have far greater effects on them than for another airline and thus the downside risk is far greater and they possibly should have been at the forefront of avoiding other risk events, not waiting til well after other airlines - simple logic. But they probably will suffer economically as a result of public perception.

4. Whatever the cause of the dispute between Ukraine and Russia/separatists it does not change what this event is - either a very major incompetence event (still with culpability by whoever instructed/ordered/pulled the trigger) or simply plain murder. And there should be a price paid by those that are culpable. Blaming it on the cause of the dispute between Ukraine and Russia is a major cop out and diversion. It is the same in any war, if soldiers of anyone break (or allow through their reasonably to be expected inaction) the basic "rules of engagement" they are war criminals no matter what side they are on.

 

[swingdog]

gets popcorn

 

[The_Reaper]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/2-ukraine-fighter-jets-shot-down-by-pro-russian-rebels-1.2715224

Two jets just shown down over Donetsk.

It seems quite obvious that the seperatists shot the MH-17 down because they thought it was a Ukrainian military plane.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest it was done on purpose.

 

[Zidane98]

Good post. As for Malaysian Airlines culpability I don't think they have any as all of these airlines that have claimed to "avoid" Ukrainian airspace fly routes that don't go through there on a direct routing. All of the SE Asian carriers (Thai, Garuda, Malaysian,) plus the likes of Virgin, Lufthansa all routed across there. The ICAO had declared to as a recognised airway and safe. Also the actual flight that was shot down originally intended to fly further south but diverted north due to thunderstorms in the way (couldn't divert south of the flight path because that would take it over Crimea and that was a no fly zone). Don't think anyone predicted that somebody would go off popping SAM's at random aircraft.


On the BUK missile system apparently you only get plane identification if there are two radars connected. The most likely scenario is a couple of Russian rebels noticed a blip on their radar screen coming from Ukranian held territory and just assumed it was hostile without verifying its origins or intentions. Which they still didn't have the right to do on Ukranian territory. I believe Russia is making sure that there are no links that can be discovered between themselves and the rebels and once they have done that they will openly blame the rebels and claim it had nothing to do with them.

 

[Zidane98]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/2-ukraine-fighter-jets-shot-down-by-pro-russian-rebels-1.2715224

Two jets just shown down over Donetsk.

It seems quite obvious that the seperatists shot the MH-17 down because they thought it was a Ukrainian military plane.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest it was done on purpose.

Almost certainly wasn't shot down on purpose from what we know. If there was any hint the aircraft was intentionally targeted and destroyed there would have already been a very strong military response launched.

 

[The_Reaper]

Almost certainly wasn't shot down on purpose from what we know. If there was any hint the aircraft was intentionally targeted and destroyed there would have already been a very strong military response launched.

Plus there is absolutely no reason for the plane to be shot down.

Lockerbie was done for political purposes. The Donetsk, Luhansk seperatists don't gain anything from shooting it down but have lost a lot.

They've also been shooting down Ukrainian planes for a few months and indeed shoot down a few more since the MH-17 was shot down.

 

[medusala]

Lockerbie was done for political purposes. The Donetsk, Luhansk seperatists don't gain anything from shooting it down but have lost a lot.

This. Who stands to benefit? Who benefitted from protesters getting shot in Kiev?

Who would really believe the CIA? Same mob who were full of it re Iraq and TWA 800.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

This. Who stands to benefit? Who benefitted from protesters getting shut in Kiev?

Who would really believe the CIA? Same mob who were full of it re Iraq and TWA 800.

You suggesting ol mate Murica on the sly or Ukrainian patsies shot it down?

 

[awaremind]

Just wondering is there any info on what happened to the info from the ukrainian air traffic control, Russians report it as mysteriously missing?

 

[medusala]

You suggesting ol mate Murica on the sly or Ukrainian patsies shot it down?

I have no idea. I am pretty certain however that there were some very dodgy stuff going on in Kiev and that the CIA is involved somewhere.

I reckon if you have the ability to shoot the plane down every chance you can identify it. So why would the Russians do it? Huge call. You would think a heap of radio chatter would precede it.

Also the Russian satellite stuff on the face of it looks a bit more valid than what the other side has said. We may never know the truth.

Poms turn to lie to everyone now that they have the black boxes.

 

[awaremind]

sorry this is what they said"the Ukrainian secret service has taken the unusual move of confiscating the recording between air traffic controller and the doomed aircraft. Such information would be needed to establish culpability and identify whether Ukrainian air traffic control directed the aircraft into the zone where it was shot down."

 

[Smiling Buddha]

 

[Catfish Alley]

Interesting that the first article had a bunch of likes and lot more options to share.

 

[Zidane98]

i find it quite amusing anybody entertains the thought that Ukraine deliberately shot down the plane in open daylight & tried to blame the rebels. Yet it was the rebels furiously cleaning up and sterilising the crash site, the rebels who posted that they brought down a Ukranian military jet (or so they thought). They also boasted they had control of a BUK missile system end of June of all which they are not surprisingly denying now. Both the Russians & Americans with their satellites and intelligence would know the exact launch location and only the Americans are the ones who have come out and said the missile was fired from rebel controlled territory. The Russians are only offering feeble excuses like blaming the Ukranians for fighting the way and supposedly having 2 fighter aircraft in the region (even though the fighter planes in question cannot climb higher then 22,000 feet).

 

[romeoh]

i find it quite amusing anybody entertains the thought that Ukraine deliberately shot down the plane in open daylight & tried to blame the rebels. Yet it was the rebels furiously cleaning up and sterilising the crash site, the rebels who posted that they brought down a Ukranian military jet (or so they thought). They also boasted they had control of a BUK missile system end of June of all which they are not surprisingly denying now. Both the Russians & Americans with their satellites and intelligence would know the exact launch location and only the Americans are the ones who have come out and said the missile was fired from rebel controlled territory. The Russians are only offering feeble excuses like blaming the Ukranians for fighting the way and supposedly having 2 fighter aircraft in the region (even though the fighter planes in question cannot climb higher then 22,000 feet).

Well then, we differ because not much about this amuses me.

 

[Total_Juddshanks]

Yeah, I get you're anger and I'm pretty sure we all do.



And that's the point, isn't it?

Despite your reasoned arguments to the contrary, your idea leaves unknown scenarios that are too innumerable to count or possibly imagine and too horrific to consider.

One idiotic act/accident/incident from either side could kick off a conflict beyond our imagination.

The MSM continuously focus upon the Middle East, but this region holds far, far more potential as a flashpoint for "global" conflict than any other in the current circumstances.

So looks like I might be getting my wish after all re troops?

http://m.perthnow.com.au/news/mh17-...r-friday-25-july/story-fniztvnf-1227000952665

 

[slicedndiced]

So looks like I might be getting my wish after all re troops?

http://m.perthnow.com.au/news/mh17-...r-friday-25-july/story-fniztvnf-1227000952665

And I maintain that it is a very, very dangerous game to play.

I'm pretty sure that the vodka-soaked Cossack's won't appreciate this one bit.

I understand the need for our Federal Police to be involved as, unfortunately, they hold some expertise in this field due to Bali. I also understand that they need protection, but let's hope that it doesn't kick off something on a larger scale.

 

[slicedndiced]

And further to this...

http://www.watoday.com.au/world/aus...ice-to-mh17-site-analysts-20140726-zx3mo.html

Prime Minister Tony Abbott's plan to deploy armed police to the MH17 crash site risks increasing tension in the Ukrainian territory held by Russian-backed rebels, according to international political analysts.

"They must be nuts," Joerg Forbrig, a senior program officer for central and eastern Europe at the Berlin bureau of the German Marshall Fund of the US think tank, said. "It's a very dangerous proposal and will be seen as a provocation by the separatists and the Russians."

Oh Tone, what have you done?