Roast My feelings about Hawthorn losing the 2012 Grand Final

[BotsMaster]

Better than Duddy and Bitchwell , who both went missing when the pressure was on.

EFA

 

[Grizzly_82]

I though 2008 was 5 years ago?
Seeing its 2013...

 

[fishtopher]

Each of them had an average day, just marginally better than Cyril and Roughie.

Was that in the park with the kids because they weren't anywhere near good enough last year to be playing on the G that day.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Was that in the park with the kids because they weren't anywhere near good enough last year to be playing on the G that day.

No they stayed home and watched the game with Hodgey and Clangers.

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

Reading another thread, got me thinking that hawthorn IMO will seriously struggle to make the 8 this year.

Their mids are carried by Mitchell who is 30. Bugoyne is also 30, and they've recruited a proven head case in lake who will be 31 next month.

That in mind, their backs are still relying on said 31 year old head case and the perennially young and improving schoenmakers (never mind that plenty of 22 and 23 year olds are dominating the league)

Their mids rely outrageously on a 30 year old in Mitchell, a 28 year old Sewell who hasn't played his best footy in a while, and a 30 year old Burgoyne. Deplspite the promises, Cyril hasn't stepped up in engine or consistency.

Their rucks hinge on a battler in Hale.

Their forward 6 are amazing. But that said in clutch moments, they choke. Consistently. Puopolo against the cats in round 19 in the last 5 minutes was classic. The "dead eye dick" Gunston missed a sitter. Then there is Buddy...

Unlike the cats who blooded some amazing youngsters over the last few years, who are the gun 18 and 19 year old mids at hawthorn? Who is their bundy and Mitch Duncan? They've put all their eggs in a basket that hasn't won their 2nd flag and now their about to fall off the cliff. They remind me of the bulldogs a couple of years back.

Finally, lots of Sides are improving. At best the hawks will remain where they were in 2012. Meanwhile the cats youngsters will improve and the return of varcoe, vardy, caddy McIntosh, rivers and Menzel will see us improve. Similarly Richmond will improve. Essendon will improve. Collingwood will improve. Carlton will improve

You get the drift. Hawthorn to finish 9-12...

Love it!!!

 

[SleazySimon]

They have blooded youngsters whitecross, savage, gunston and bruest. They did riley on hale for most of the ruckwork last year but that's only because their no1 ruck max bailey was injured (similar ruck situation as us). I agree their youngsters coming through won't be as good us ours in the future but lake will make them stronger than last year for this season at least. They'll be up there again this year. Mitchell is 30 and isnt quick but hes a ball extractor and if his body holds up could easily play on for another 3 year's or so.

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

They have blooded youngsters whitecross, savage, gunston and bruest. They did riley on hale for most of the ruckwork last year but that's only because their no1 ruck max bailey was injured (similar ruck situation as us). I agree their youngsters coming through won't be as good us ours in the future but lake will make them stronger than last year for this season at least. They'll be up there again this year. Mitchell is 30 and isnt quick but hes a ball extractor and if his body holds up could easily play on for another 3 year's or so.

None of the players mentioned are quality mids. And bailey was fit
Through September. They just didn't pick him. Speaks volumes about your ability if you can't get a game ahead of David hale.... And lake may improve them. Or he may be the head case he was at the bulldogs. He's also 31 and has himself admitted that the bulldogs medics said his knees were a disaster.

 

[SleazySimon]

They'll be up there this year but fall away after that

 

[Scottland2007]

If they make the grand final, I think they will know it's not a gimme and will have a serious desire to win. However, they have to get there first. There win loss ratio was better in 2011, just Geelong and Collingwood dropped off in 2012. If two teams step up this year, say Sydney and W.C, and they can't make grand final this year, then there window is shut.

 

[Moley Russels Wart]

Finally, lots of Sides are improving. At best the hawks will remain where they were in 2012. Meanwhile the cats youngsters will improve and the return of varcoe, vardy, caddy McIntosh, rivers and Menzel will see us improve. Similarly Richmond will improve. Essendon will improve. Collingwood will improve. Carlton will improve

Not sure why people think Collingwood will improve. They got rid of a B grader, possible future A grader in Wellingham, a C grade gorilla in Dawes, and brought in a C grader from Hawthorn and a D grader from WC and Carlton, both of whom wouldn't get a game in 2013 in their old team. Sure Ball will be back and it's a good midfield, but falls away quickly after the top 5 and Ball is the only player in the whole team with a bit of mongrel to win the hard ball.

 

[Moley Russels Wart]

Also, Freo have a good young midfield but very reliant on Sandilands and Pavlich still, and both those players just had surgery so I'm expecting that will affect them well into the season.

 

[scottydeewah]

Reading another thread, got me thinking that hawthorn IMO will seriously struggle to make the 8 this year.

Their mids are carried by Mitchell who is 30. Bugoyne is also 30, and they've recruited a proven head case in lake who will be 31 next month.

That in mind, their backs are still relying on said 31 year old head case and the perennially young and improving schoenmakers (never mind that plenty of 22 and 23 year olds are dominating the league)

Their mids rely outrageously on a 30 year old in Mitchell, a 28 year old Sewell who hasn't played his best footy in a while, and a 30 year old Burgoyne. Deplspite the promises, Cyril hasn't stepped up in engine or consistency.

Their rucks hinge on a battler in Hale.

Their forward 6 are amazing. But that said in clutch moments, they choke. Consistently. Puopolo against the cats in round 19 in the last 5 minutes was classic. The "dead eye dick" Gunston missed a sitter. Then there is Buddy...

Unlike the cats who blooded some amazing youngsters over the last few years, who are the gun 18 and 19 year old mids at hawthorn? Who is their bundy and Mitch Duncan? They've put all their eggs in a basket that hasn't won their 2nd flag and now their about to fall off the cliff. They remind me of the bulldogs a couple of years back.

Finally, lots of Sides are improving. At best the hawks will remain where they were in 2012. Meanwhile the cats youngsters will improve and the return of varcoe, vardy, caddy McIntosh, rivers and Menzel will see us improve. Similarly Richmond will improve. Essendon will improve. Collingwood will improve. Carlton will improve

You get the drift. Hawthorn to finish 9-12...

Love it!!!

I dont understand your argument. They made the GF this year and were right there until about 180 seconds left in the season. Yet suddenly them relying on Mitchell (gun), Sewell (very good player), Burger (had best season he has had at the Hawks last year), etc. is their downfall. Why? What possible reason do you have that these players, who played very well last year, will suddenly be crap this year?

Look I would love the Hawks to be complete rubbish. But they have a list full of some serious talent and I dont see why all of a sudden guys like Sammy, Sewell, Lewis, Buddy, Roughy, Rioli, Gibson and Hodge will suddenly forget or lose the ability to play footy. I dont know if they will be as dominant as last year (and they did smash a LOT of teams), but I cant see them finishing 9-12th!

 

[SleazySimon]

Not sure why people think Collingwood will improve. They got rid of a B grader, possible future A grader in Wellingham, a C grade gorilla in Dawes, and brought in a C grader from Hawthorn and a D grader from WC and Carlton, both of whom wouldn't get a game in 2013 in their old team. Sure Ball will be back and it's a good midfield, but falls away quickly after the top 5 and Ball is the only player in the whole team with a bit of mongrel to win the hard ball.

Because they got highish draft picks for losing wellingham and dawes. Herald sun says they did the best at the draft table so it must be true.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I dont understand your argument. They made the GF this year and were right there until about 180 seconds left in the season. Yet suddenly them relying on Mitchell (gun), Sewell (very good player), Burger (had best season he has had at the Hawks last year), etc. is their downfall. Why? What possible reason do you have that these players, who played very well last year, will suddenly be crap this year?

Look I would love the Hawks to be complete rubbish. But they have a list full of some serious talent and I dont see why all of a sudden guys like Sammy, Sewell, Lewis, Buddy, Roughy, Rioli, Gibson and Hodge will suddenly forget or lose the ability to play footy. I dont know if they will be as dominant as last year (and they did smash a LOT of teams), but I cant see them finishing 9-12th!

This is my line of reasoning as well. I think Hawthorn have around two years of their 'current' Premiership window left to run - can probably tie it to what's left of Sammy Mitchell's career. Two to three years?

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

Just reckon that Mitchell carried them so much. At 30 we will see him slow down if anything. He certainly isn't going to improve. My theory on them slipping is that I don't see their side improving and keeping up with the Geelong, Essendon, Richmond, north Melbourne and other sides that each year improve. If they get a serious injury to buddy or Mitchell, then they are in real trouble.

 

[Strangled Cat]

I have a confession.

I knowingly slept with a hawks flog on the weekend.

There is a disturbance in the curse. Maybe an early loss to them would be a blessing in disguise.

Was it a good flog?

 

[scottydeewah]

Just reckon that Mitchell carried them so much. At 30 we will see him slow down if anything. He certainly isn't going to improve. My theory on them slipping is that I don't see their side improving and keeping up with the Geelong, Essendon, Richmond, north Melbourne and other sides that each year improve. If they get a serious injury to buddy or Mitchell, then they are in real trouble.

Mitchell doesnt need to improve, he just needs to carry on. There are a lot of players who have played into their 30's and been guns. Also it isnt like he has a history of being injured.

You could write off a lot of teams by injuries to their gun players. Honestly without Hawkins (who is in the top 2-3 forwards in the league now) our forward line doesnt look nearly so good.

I dont believe in using injuries to write off a team unless there is a historical basis for it. Neither of the two players you mentioned has a history of being injured, so why all of a sudden in 2013 will they have season ending injuries?

Also we have a lot of players around that 30 mark. You saying Bartel is going to slow down - Sammy and Bartel where never fast to begin with. What about Kelly, Corey, Enright, etc.

 

[catswhiskers]

Just reckon that Mitchell carried them so much. At 30 we will see him slow down if anything. He certainly isn't going to improve. My theory on them slipping is that I don't see their side improving and keeping up with the Geelong, Essendon, Richmond, north Melbourne and other sides that each year improve. If they get a serious injury to buddy or Mitchell, then they are in real trouble.

This is the biggest worry for the Hawks. Depth. Their best 22 when fit and firing can beat anyone. But its a marathon and without depth a side could get into trouble. This year more than any other for quite a while.

This year only a few games will be marked down as wins without much thought. Even the GCS / Bullies will be improving plus Brissie. When the injuries hit you need good replacements or a few key players have to work too hard. Hodge has had to do this for a couple of years now and its starting to show.

 

[fishtopher]

Just reckon that Mitchell carried them so much. At 30 we will see him slow down if anything. He certainly isn't going to improve. My theory on them slipping is that I don't see their side improving and keeping up with the Geelong, Essendon, Richmond, north Melbourne and other sides that each year improve. If they get a serious injury to buddy or Mitchell, then they are in real trouble.

You know you're struggling when you can't even get your fellow Catters to take you seriously. Name you're price for the Hawks not to make the eight and I'll happily double it.

As far as depth goes here's a couple of names for you who weren't there in the granny - Brian Lake, Brent Guerra, Brendan Whitecross, Max Bailey, Micheal Osborne, Kyle Cheney, Bradley Hill, Jonathan Simpkin, Jed Anderson, Mitch Hallahan. They might not be match winners but everyone of them can step straight into the any AFL 22 if needed.

Saying we will be in trouble if Franklin or Mitchell go down is a ridiculous argument. Name one team who won't take a step or two backwards if their best one of their best two players go down. You think you guys won't miss a beat if you have to replace Hawkins or Selwood with someone like Kersten and Horlin-Smith.

You need to poke your head out of the Cattery once in a while and learn a bit more about opposition lists before you start dribbling this kind of garbage.

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

You know you're struggling when you can't even get your fellow Catters to take you seriously. Name you're price for the Hawks not to make the eight and I'll happily double it.

As far as depth goes here's a couple of names for you who weren't there in the granny - Brian Lake, Brent Guerra, Brendan Whitecross, Max Bailey, Micheal Osborne, Kyle Cheney, Bradley Hill, Jonathan Simpkin, Jed Anderson, Mitch Hallahan. They might not be match winners but everyone of them can step straight into the any AFL 22 if needed.

Saying we will be in trouble if Franklin or Mitchell go down is a ridiculous argument. Name one team who won't take a step or two backwards if their best one of their best two players go down. You think you guys won't miss a beat if you have to replace Hawkins or Selwood with someone like Kersten and Horlin-Smith.

You need to poke your head out of the Cattery once in a while and learn a bit more about opposition lists before you start dribbling this kind of garbage.

1 who disagrees. Can't wait for round one. And round two then rounds three and four. Hawks to be 0-4

 

[fishtopher]

1 who disagrees. Can't wait for round one. And round two then rounds three and four. Hawks to be 0-4

I counted a couple and no-one who actually agreed with you beyond our premiership window being more closed than open. Doesn't quiet add up to not making the eight. If you want four to one with the Cats finishing above us as well just let me know. Out of curiosity, where do you think the Cats will finish this year? Let's see how confident (and honest) you can be in front of your brethren. Or is just going to be more dribble?

 

[Partridge]

Each of them had an average day, just marginally better than Cyril and Roughie.

And far better than Young. Unless one of them fell over bringing drinks back from the bar.

 

[catswhiskers]

As far as depth goes here's a couple of names for you who weren't there in the granny - Brian Lake, Brent Guerra, Brendan Whitecross, Max Bailey, Micheal Osborne, Kyle Cheney, Bradley Hill, Jonathan Simpkin, Jed Anderson, Mitch Hallahan. They might not be match winners but everyone of them can step straight into the any AFL 22 if needed.

I don't normally get into discussions like this but to support my assertion that hawks have a very good first team roster but not much depth if things don't go according to plan:

That list of depth players is a little underwhelming.

Isn't Whitecross out most of the year with a knee? not depth 2012
Guerra will only replace Young in starting 22. not depth
Brian Lake is interesting-31 but talented and flighty. That one could go anywhere.
Bailey has yet to prove he can stay on the park or that he has enough talent.
Cheney and Simpkin (not good enough to stay on another clubs list) are journeymen at best.
Hill has 5 games under his belt and looks a prospect. Like this one if he builds up a bit.
Hallahan yet to play a game after 2 or 3 years on the list? Anderson is a 19 yo half-back flanker who was drafted in November last year - ready made?!

Even if we count Lake, Cheney, Bailey, Hallahan, Simpkin and Hill thats a list that goes to 28.

PS I would have listed Spangher - have always liked the lad - don't know why 2 clubs have cut him already.

 

[raff23]

I don't normally get into discussions like this but to support my assertion that hawks have a very good first team roster but not much depth if things don't go according to plan:

That list of depth players is a little underwhelming.

Isn't Whitecross out most of the year with a knee? not depth 2012
Guerra will only replace Young in starting 22. not depth
Brian Lake is interesting-31 but talented and flighty. That one could go anywhere.
Bailey has yet to prove he can stay on the park or that he has enough talent.
Cheney and Simpkin (not good enough to stay on another clubs list) are journeymen at best.
Hill has 5 games under his belt and looks a prospect. Like this one if he builds up a bit.
Hallahan yet to play a game after 2 or 3 years on the list? Anderson is a 19 yo half-back flanker who was drafted in November last year - ready made?!

Even if we count Lake, Cheney, Bailey, Hallahan, Simpkin and Hill thats a list that goes to 28.

PS I would have listed Spangher - have always liked the lad - don't know why 2 clubs have cut him already.

because some of the players mentioned havent played senior footy yet does not mean they are not good depth, young will be replaced by either hill or savage and possibly matt suckling, not guerra. Dureya, litherland, and kelly to mention a few other names are all ready to step up this year if required, Dureya is depth for guerra as of next year onwards, alex woodward would have been pushing the first 22 had he not done his knee again, huge wraps on the kid if he can get his knee right. Anderson btw was rated a top 20 pick in the draft yet we got him for something in the 40s if my memory serves me correctly, the guy had big wraps on him, not saying that means anything but the argument that we dont have much depth for the next few years is pretty silly. If Hallahan can really make a statement in the pre season he will be playing seniors this year, has the body and development level required to have an impact.

 

[fishtopher]

I don't normally get into discussions like this but to support my assertion that hawks have a very good first team roster but not much depth if things don't go according to plan:

That list of depth players is a little underwhelming.

Isn't Whitecross out most of the year with a knee? not depth 2012
Guerra will only replace Young in starting 22. not depth
Brian Lake is interesting-31 but talented and flighty. That one could go anywhere.
Bailey has yet to prove he can stay on the park or that he has enough talent.
Cheney and Simpkin (not good enough to stay on another clubs list) are journeymen at best.
Hill has 5 games under his belt and looks a prospect. Like this one if he builds up a bit.
Hallahan yet to play a game after 2 or 3 years on the list? Anderson is a 19 yo half-back flanker who was drafted in November last year - ready made?!

Even if we count Lake, Cheney, Bailey, Hallahan, Simpkin and Hill thats a list that goes to 28.

PS I would have listed Spangher - have always liked the lad - don't know why 2 clubs have cut him already.

Don't disagree mate but we are talking about 10 players who are not in the best 22. All clubs are spread thin these days but I don't think many (if any) would have even 2 or 3 outside of their best 22 that you would genuinely want at your club.

Sydney's next best - Ben McGlynn, Kurt Tippett (out for half the year like Whitecross - every team has them), Gary Rohan, Tommy Walsh, Tony Armstrong, Andrejs Everitt, Harry Cunningham, Dean Towers, Tom Mitchell, Jed Lamb, Tim Membrey.

Handy first three (although the TippTruck is massively overated) but not much to right home about after that.