Paddy Ryder bump on Will Day

[PJays]

If you're gonna speculate about conspiracies against St.Kilda, I can suggest better places to go than the tribunal

Like, the fixture. St Kilda missed the finals by 1 game and percentage last season after having the toughest fixture in the comp. This year, we again get a tough fixture- harder than several teams who made the 8 last year.

That conspiracy might have legs. But I think it's more likely the AFL's just incompetent.

Might have to start a new thread for that one...

 

[kozi]

Yeah not sure this is quite the dunk you think it is.

Everyone else here but you seems perfectly capable of discussing the topic. That'll do for now donkey.

 

[Halways]

Nonsense

If this is basketball Ryder gets an unsportsmanlike foul for that, minimum. Then probably suspension for rough conduct, just like the AFL situation. The basketball rules require 2 USFs OR USF and Technical for an ejection. So it wouldn't be an ejection, but it would be immediate USF, and report.

The issue is he hip and shouldered Day. That's not a basketball play at all. Basketball has screens, and occasionally a poorly executed screen can result in a play somewhat resembling a side on bump, but they are still fundamentally different actions.

It is a footy play. Bumps occur regularly. But my question is, by penalising a bump like this, will the bump eventually disappear altogether and is that a good thing?

Ultimately though, there is emerging knowledge about concussions, and a never ending list of players whose careers are significantly impacted, or ended, by concussion (at St Kilda Kosi, Stevens, Longer, McCartin, McGuire although his concussion occurred as a Brisbane player. I'm sure there's a few others too). If Ryder doesn't bump, there's likely no concussion.

It's not an easy issue. I think I've settled on one match being an appropriate ban.

But talk of Ryder being stationary or not is a subsidiary of the bigger issue of the fact that he actually bumped a guy which caused whiplash to the head.

Day was kicking the ball and couldn't be sure what Ryder's action would be until he was already in the kicking motion, and he could hardly stop before impact. So talk of Day being to blame is off the mark. The only questions are firstly whether Ryder's action was acceptable, and if not, what is the appropriate penalty?

Refreshing - the first logical, sensible take on the “well in basketball….” crew running down the hill with pitchforks




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[outofthegloom]

Ryder is a lumbering, albeit more athletic big ruckman, charging down a much slighter and nimble Day. This pressure makes Day kick the ball away so Ryder realises this and knows he can't tackle him or its an immediate free downfield for holding. As we all know from playing the game, if you can't tackle, previously you bump... he doesn't even move to bump but stands his ground and braces for contact and bumps. Shock horror, he's got 20cm and 30kg on Day and this bump causes a concussion. If it was Gawn or even Fyfe running at him in the same position, of course this concussion wouldn't happen due to their body size.

I've had a few pints so talking a load of tripe, but in my mind, this was pretty tame.

 

[smeltitdeltit]

Ryder is a lumbering, albeit more athletic big ruckman, charging down a much slighter and nimble Day. This pressure makes Day kick the ball away so Ryder realises this and knows he can't tackle him or its an immediate free downfield for holding. As we all know from playing the game, if you can't tackle, previously you bump... he doesn't even move to bump but stands his ground and braces for contact and bumps. Shock horror, he's got 20cm and 30kg on Day and this bump causes a concussion. If it was Gawn or even Fyfe running at him in the same position, of course this concussion wouldn't happen due to their body size.

I've had a few pints so talking a load of tripe, but in my mind, this was pretty tame.

Agree it was tame, and had no malice but that’s why it was deemed careless instead of intentional and hence not 3 weeks. Fits the description pretty well.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Agree it was tame, and had no malice but that’s why it was deemed careless instead of intentional and hence not 3 weeks. Fits the description pretty well.

Pretty much. We can’t have players being subbed out.

 

[smeltitdeltit]

Everyone else here but you seems perfectly capable of discussing the topic. That'll do for now donkey.

Ok champ. You stick with the idea the defences argument was too high brow for the tribunal.

 

[chopflop]

I think Paddy is in trouble and the best he can hope for is a reduction to 1 week.

I don’t think the fact that he has braced for contact and is almost stationary is a good enough defence (he wasn’t actually completely stationary and when you watch it back in slow motion you can see his momentum is still moving forward slightly into the bump).

At no point in the lead up to making contact has Ryder had eyes on the ball. He has made a B-line for Day and at no point did he try and smother the ball or intercept the ball. His line of movement did not deviate at any point even when it was clear he would not impact the play. At that point he should have stepped aside and not initiated contact.

As you can see in the stills, in the first image Day is already kicking the ball. At this point Ryder still has the option to not engage with Day as the play has moved on and he is not impacting the ball.

Ryder also has a duty of care towards Day. As Day is in the motion of kicking the ball, he is completely vulnerable and unable to protect himself for the bump.

In short, if Ryder actually showed any attempt to go the ball I think he’d be ok but as he has not, this is the result.

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This is damning. The football play here is to attempt a smother. He wanted to flatten him and if you do so, wear the consequences. 2 weeks good result

 

[kozi]

Ok champ. You stick with the idea the defences argument was too high brow for the tribunal.

Dumbing down the argument so the tribunal could understand it. Clearly not a serious assertion you absolute pot plant.

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

Ridiculous decision. At some point the responsibility he has to be on the player to look after themselves. Ryder may have collected him but he could have completely ended him had that been his intention and Day had more than enough time to brace for the contact that came his way.

 

[Plugger35]

This is damning. The football play here is to attempt a smother. He wanted to flatten him and if you do so, wear the consequences. 2 weeks good result

How could he smother when the ball had gone by the time he got near Day? Also if he wanted to flatten him he'd have a lot worse than just concussion.

 

[smeltitdeltit]

Dumbing down the argument so the tribunal could understand it. Clearly not a serious assertion you absolute pot plant.

At least I’m not the doughnut suggesting Ryder was “stationary at the point of impact and no contact was made to the head.”

Both patently false.

 

[chopflop]

How could he smother when the ball had gone by the time he got near Day? Also if he wanted to flatten him he'd have a lot worse than just concussion.

Look at the first pic legend. Eyes for the man and the ball is moving from hand to foot. If he is playing the ball, he would be diving for a smother. He picked him off. Plain and simple. I, like many others on here, have done the same thing... But it's a new era in the AFL. Play the man, get weeks. Simple.

 

[juss]

I find this quite shocking. IMO worse actions have got off/got less.

For me that's no suspension, 1 at worst. That he got 2 boggles my tiny brain.

Punishing the result and not the action is the wrong focus IMO. In the long term it's the actions that we want to change, the result is often just good or bad luck which you can't control, unless you stamp out all physical contact.

 

[Xtreme]

2 week ban stands.

Do the crime
Do the time

 

[Boozeroo]

The frustration for me is the lack of awareness from Day.

With constant rule changes and the increasing awareness on concussion rules in particular, the modern footballer seems to be in situations that initiate contact to free up another player or dispose at the last second etc., whereas in the past you would be split in half, so disposals occurred earlier



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[PJays]

Ridiculous decision. At some point the responsibility he has to be on the player to look after themselves. Ryder may have collected him but he could have completely ended him had that been his intention and Day had more than enough time to brace for the contact that came his way.

This take has been made a few times but it fails the pub test

Will Day was kicking the ball. He was running forwards at speed and he entered a kicking motion.

Yes, there was an opponent running towards him. From here we have two options:

1. Day was looking to his teammates and trying to kick, and didn't see Ryder

If this is true, then Day could hardly have braced himself

2. Day saw Ryder coming, but continued trying to get his kick off in time

If this is true, Day still had no way of knowing what Ryder would do. Day had already entered his kicking motion well before Ryder committed to any course of action- the screenshots in this thread demonstrate that clearly

In that situation, most opponents would attempt to smother, or lay a late tackle, or pull out of the contest completely (after realizing they were too late to influence the kick). Ryder chose to bump. He chose to bump a player who was towards the completion of their kicking motion and who was running straight towards Ryder at speed. That was risky- potentially risky to his opponents health (which unfortunately eventuated) and risky that Ryder might also get suspended (which also eventuated). It was a risk Ryder took in that instant.

Either way, whether Day saw Ryder or not. Key point is this: Day should have the right to continue his kicking motion- which he already entered into well before Ryder committed to any specific action- without facing the risk that his head ends up whiplashed because the opponent turned their shoulder into him.

St Kilda captain Jack Steele essentially admitted this when asked, he said "we have to protect the head".

You could say "Day had already kicked and should've braced himself". But Ryder was so late, and Day took only half an extra step before the collision- that half step was unavoidable once he's made the decision to make a running kick. Which again, Day decided long before Ryder decided to bump.

And this is also what differentiates the Tim English incident. English's feet were planted, he was in position for ages, and his opponent ran into him. English literally had no options except brace for contact. Or sidestep away from a position where his feet were already set. He braced for contact (with a slight lean in and push off, which could be considered bracing himself) which is what anybody would do in that situation. Ryder was different. Ryder was running in and had options- smother, late tackle, pull out, or bump. He chose the risky bump option. Not identical to the English incident at all.

Saints fans are up in arms, but the tribunal will never be perfect. AFL has 36 players running frenetically in every direction over a 160m long oval. It's a crazy game in some respects. Extremely difficult to come up with coherent principles that look completely consistent and please everybody every time.

For mine, one week was probably appropriate for Ryder. Two weeks slightly over the top. But there's some commentary trying to completely excuse the act which has been off the mark and poorly thought out. This is a good example.

 

[True Blue Saint]

This is what you describe Day as “making a beeline for Ryder”. LMFAO you dolt

So Day doesn't step off his right foot and move left towards Ryder?

He's oblivious to all around him.

If Paddy chose to "bump" Day he would've buried him some time in to next week.

 

[Plugger35]

Look at the first pic legend. Eyes for the man and the ball is moving from hand to foot. If he is playing the ball, he would be diving for a smother. He picked him off. Plain and simple. I, like many others on here, have done the same thing... But it's a new era in the AFL. Play the man, get weeks. Simple.

He would have needed to be Superman to smother the ball from where he was and Day contributed to the collision by lacking awareness and not protecting himself.

Players have a duty of care to protect other players but they also have a duty of care to protect themselves which Day lacked in this instance.

 

[juss]

English is standing still for a considerable amount longer than Ryder was. Doesn't really matter now, Ryder ultimately got suspended because Day got knocked out, if Blakey didn't play the week after due to concussion I'm sure English would be suspended to. It's got nothing to do with the club either plays for.

That's the problem with punishing the result and not the action.

English turns and puts the shoulder in, and got off because of the luck of the opponent not being concussed.

Flip the results of Ryder and English's actions, and English gets suspended and Ryder doesn't for the same actions they did.

That's a huge problem with the MRO. They're basing their decisions on variables outside of the offenders control.

 

[spenze]

I've often thought that on these sort of incidents, they should wait til Gerald and Robbo have their say and then just do the opposite.

It is an unfortunate collision that would have been negated if either of them didn't start turning in the same direction

 

[kozi]

At least I’m not the doughnut suggesting Ryder was “stationary at the point of impact and no contact was made to the head.”

Both patently false.

Yeah that one hasn't landed either. Are your eyes painted on?

Jog on mate. I'll let the others deal with you now.

 

[chopflop]

He would have needed to be Superman to smother the ball from where he was and Day contributed to the collision by lacking awareness and not protecting himself.

Players have a duty of care to protect other players but they also have a duty of care to protect themselves which Day lacked in this instance.

I am sure if you keep sooking it up that it will help you feel better.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Interesting that you can forcefully bump someone when standing still and static with both feet planted on the ground.

 

[Plugger35]

I am sure if you keep sooking it up that it will help you feel better.

I don't need to sook it up to feel better I just need to watch a replay of our big win on Sunday.