Preview Rnd 2 - Carlton v Sydney Sunday 3rd April 4.40PM @ Etihad - Team post #761

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

You've muddled the maths a bit there, that's 34% game time where one of them wasn't playing the primary ruck role (ie. combined).

I'd argue that the only time Phillips was in the forward 50 was when he ran forward for a goal, but I'm going from memory. Do you have access to I50 targets?

Yeah I guess you're right there. If they shared the ruck time 50/50 (which they probably didn't), they would both have spent 50% out of their 67/68% in the ruck. So effectively it would be more like:
Kreuz = 50% ruck, 18% forward and 32% on the bench
Phillips = 50% ruck, 17% forward and 33% bench time
With slight variances based on how much the ruck work was actually split.
So really they only spent roughly 1/3 of the game COMBINED playing forward. In that case, 2 goals is a sufficient return IMO.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

He was training far better last year though. Looked like a jet, kicking included.

There's a lot of 'unknown' about Thomas right now and for all we know he may just be doubting himself, given just how much time he has been out of the game. Just one good game....a really good game....and we may see something like what we envied 5 years ago.

<Insert 'doubting Thomas' joke here>

 

[therubbernub]

Whether he's best 22 or not is up for debate, literally, as that's what's been happening. So it's no more "ludicrous" to suggest he isn't as it is to suggest he is. It's really just opinion.
We can only, each of us, state our arguments. Thomas is not a gut runner any more, when was the last time we saw him impact a game, change the momentum of a game with his gut running? Also, the criticism aimed at him is not based on NAB, it's been over the course of his time at Carlton. Injuries granted, I'm not sure he's played a memorable game for us, a game that might sway the doubters. I questioned Nick Graham for a long time, but I'm now one of his biggest fans, because he proved me wrong, Thomas has done nothing to appease his critics.
The question is, does Daisy add value to the side? The answer at this stage is definitely not. So we can debate whether he's best 22 or not, but an "automatic inclusion", he is not.
Daisy's weapons have all deserted him, the attributes that made him a good player are gone. They were gone even before he came to Carlton, they're not magically coming back, he's in decline as a footballer.
You stated if he has a great game against the swans, people should get off his back, fair call. But If he has another poor game, what will your view be then?

A lot of what you write is a bit disingenuous

1 . "Thomas is not a gut runner any more" Based on what? 2014 ? a year where he had no preseason, and was still recovering from an ankle that was supposedly never going to allow him to play again. I wouldnt expect him to shine in 2014 as a gut runner- he was coming from too far back.
2015?- reportedly was very fit and ready to go. Got an unlucky break very early in rd1 and this took his ability to show his gut running ability away for the year.
2016? - I am not going to crucify a mature, established AFL player for his failure to take the NAB cup as anything more than blowing the cob webs away.

2. "I'm not sure he's played a memorable game for us, a game that might sway the doubters ' Granted he hasnt had that awe inspiring game that we are probably forgiven for demanding from such a highly paid player. But then again , for all the same reasons as I have outlined above, he really hasnt had the opportunity. Although, if you look at his 2014 season i would point you to the appraisal of his rounds 19 and 20 .

2014 Season
1 Port Tried hard but lacked a little zip. Missed a sitter in third, among others. 5
2 Rich Came into his own in third quarter surge. Put quieteners on Cotchin. 7
3 Ess Apart from one brilliant tap to Murphy he was largely a non-factor. 4
4 Melb Injured shoulder early and while returned never looked comfortable. Impact nil. 4
5 WB Picken went with him at start. Worked hard and kicked trademark goal. 6
6 WCE Showed some good signs. There was bounce in his game again. 5
7 Coll Flummed first shot. Quiet and jeered all night. Fitness appears lacking. 3
8 StK Used permanent forward and apart from one great goal he didn’t give a yelp. 2
10 Adel Best game for club. Gave team a rev at three-quarter time and goaled late. 6
11 Bris On Paparone. Busted gut but not having sustained effect on games. 5
12 Geel Three goals despite copping heavy knock early. Made most of opportunities. 7
13 Haw Couple of flashes of class and one goal but generally well quiet. 4
14 GWS Kicked two goals and claimed seven marks in a reasonable performance. 6
15 Coll Worked hard but not much came his way. One goal but just one inside-50. 4
16 StK Savage began on him then Newnes. Good work-rate as ever and was solid. 5
17 Syd The once-mighty Thomas is a shadow of his former self right now. 4
18 NM Off for treatment early. Worked hard without impact. 4
19 Frem Best game for club? All over the field and played with a poise we haven’t seen. 8
20 GCS Finding best form at last. Roamed across half back and racked them up. 8
21 Geel Injured knee early and was on and off until night ended in final term. 1


"Daisy's weapons have all deserted him, the attributes that made him a good player are gone. They were gone even before he came to Carlton"

Again you make no allowances for his lack of opportunity to show his weapons since crossing to carlton. Prior to moving.....His 2012 season was pretty good without being at the stellar level of his 2010 and 2011 years, however his weapons were still there. Then he had the ankle in 2013- should we expect anything from his 2013 season- he only played 5 games FMD.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

she started it

Trump? Is that you?

 

[HBF]

With all due respect mate, that's 18 months ago.
He's pretty much missed an entire year of footy, played two NAB games and waltzes back into the team.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Good discussions re: Everitt and Thomas everyone. Glad we can all get our views across in a civil manner, even if we all still end up disagreeing.
Could imagine a few other boards eating each other alive.




I really need to get some work done now...

Alright, one more refresh!

 

[therubbernub]

And Cripps had only played just over a half as well.
Murphy (and Cripps) are easily in our best 22. Daisy is borderline best 22 for me. He was undisciplined against Sydney and copped a week. He has zero runs on the board at Carlton to be able to just walk back into the team after he's been suspended. We did ok without him last week, and I doubt had he played the result would have been any different.

Ok so you admit that NAB form isnt the only barometer- that there may be other factors at play that result in a player being selected. BB seems pretty positive about him- can we at least agree that BB is in a better position than all of us to judge who is best to execute his game plan?
Once he is selected and has played 3-4 senior games I feel that we will all be in a better position to judge him. If after those games he has clearly lost his "weapons" and is just an also ran, I would be happy to admit that he is probably past it. If however he shows a few signs, I would be more than happy to persist with him on the basis that he is still only 28 and could have another 3-4 years . If he can play a worthwhile role and bring experience and leadership to the group, then why not persist with him?

 

[ESKIE]

I'm leaving Daisy conundrum to Bolts

He has had some bad luck with injury ie last year

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

With all due respect mate, that's 18 months ago.
He's pretty much missed an entire year of footy, played two NAB games and waltzes back into the team.

But everyone's starting with a fresh slate under Bolts. Preseason training obviously counts for a lot.

 

[My name geoff]

Bolton has clearly and repeatedly stated that the club has had a complete reset. Any form prior to 2016 is irrelevant, including Daisy's.

 

[HBF]

Bolton has clearly and repeatedly stated that the club has had a complete reset. Any form prior to 2016 is irrelevant, including Daisy's.

I'm happy for Bolton and the club to take this approach, but I think some of this can be undone by players being gifted games.
Not having a crack at you, but I still haven't seen anyone give me a reason why Thomas walks straight back into our best 22.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Let's smash up all those kiddies' growth plates on that hard surface

You are getting so negative in your old age.

 

[Metalcrusher]

I think we are flogging a dead horse here HBF. However, I will state for the record that: I would LOVE NOTHING MORE, than to see a fit, firing and productive Thomas on the park, I just have reservations as to whether that will ever happen (Opinion only). I will be the first to admit after stringing 3-4 quality games together that I was wrong.

Daisy is a confidence player and I truly believe that he needs to go back to the Bullants to find both touch and confidence, otherwise, it sends a damning precedent to the up and comers, and for that matter the rest of the playing group, does that make sense?

However I absolutely stand on the premise that players need to be picked by merit otherwise we go back to playing favourites. As HBF has said probably better than me, is WHY is Daisy being automatically selected? It cannot be on form I have watched in the last 2 years at CFC so it must be on memories of deeds past ...............

Like Soapy said a few posts ago put the BEST team on the park. That doesn't mean putting the hypothetically best team on the park. But the BEST team that covers matchups, spread, run, mobility, shutdowns and the biggest one FORM!

 

[1981]

You'd have to think, Charlie Curnow being named in the Emerg 2 weeks running , it would be likely he will play seniors this week.

 

[TheCoach16]

A lot of what you write is a bit disingenuous

1 . "Thomas is not a gut runner any more" Based on what? 2014 ? a year where he had no preseason, and was still recovering from an ankle that was supposedly never going to allow him to play again. I wouldnt expect him to shine in 2014 as a gut runner- he was coming from too far back.
2015?- reportedly was very fit and ready to go. Got an unlucky break very early in rd1 and this took his ability to show his gut running ability away for the year.
2016? - I am not going to crucify a mature, established AFL player for his failure to take the NAB cup as anything more than blowing the cob webs away.

2. "I'm not sure he's played a memorable game for us, a game that might sway the doubters ' Granted he hasnt had that awe inspiring game that we are probably forgiven for demanding from such a highly paid player. But then again , for all the same reasons as I have outlined above, he really hasnt had the opportunity. Although, if you look at his 2014 season i would point you to the appraisal of his rounds 19 and 20 .

2014 Season
1 Port Tried hard but lacked a little zip. Missed a sitter in third, among others. 5
2 Rich Came into his own in third quarter surge. Put quieteners on Cotchin. 7
3 Ess Apart from one brilliant tap to Murphy he was largely a non-factor. 4
4 Melb Injured shoulder early and while returned never looked comfortable. Impact nil. 4
5 WB Picken went with him at start. Worked hard and kicked trademark goal. 6
6 WCE Showed some good signs. There was bounce in his game again. 5
7 Coll Flummed first shot. Quiet and jeered all night. Fitness appears lacking. 3
8 StK Used permanent forward and apart from one great goal he didn’t give a yelp. 2
10 Adel Best game for club. Gave team a rev at three-quarter time and goaled late. 6
11 Bris On Paparone. Busted gut but not having sustained effect on games. 5
12 Geel Three goals despite copping heavy knock early. Made most of opportunities. 7
13 Haw Couple of flashes of class and one goal but generally well quiet. 4
14 GWS Kicked two goals and claimed seven marks in a reasonable performance. 6
15 Coll Worked hard but not much came his way. One goal but just one inside-50. 4
16 StK Savage began on him then Newnes. Good work-rate as ever and was solid. 5
17 Syd The once-mighty Thomas is a shadow of his former self right now. 4
18 NM Off for treatment early. Worked hard without impact. 4
19 Frem Best game for club? All over the field and played with a poise we haven’t seen. 8
20 GCS Finding best form at last. Roamed across half back and racked them up. 8
21 Geel Injured knee early and was on and off until night ended in final term. 1


"Daisy's weapons have all deserted him, the attributes that made him a good player are gone. They were gone even before he came to Carlton"

Again you make no allowances for his lack of opportunity to show his weapons since crossing to carlton. Prior to moving.....His 2012 season was pretty good without being at the stellar level of his 2010 and 2011 years, however his weapons were still there. Then he had the ankle in 2013- should we expect anything from his 2013 season- he only played 5 games FMD.

I respect your views on the game trn but all you've done in that post is make excuses for him. I understand he's had setbacks, But the fact remains, His average (at best) performances from two years ago don't make him a walk up start right now. My question remains, does he add value to the side right now? Is he so good that he needs to be an automatic inclusion in a side that performed extremely well last week?
Serious question, sincerely not having a go, but who's appraisals are those you've listed?
And the weapons I was referring to were speed, long accurate kicking, impressive leap, midfield and forward line impact. Is it "disingenuous" to suggest that we've seen none of that during his time at Carlton? Or is it just the unfortunate truth?
Anyway, I guess he's in this week, we'll see what impact he has, and what value he adds....

 

[1981]

I'm happy for Bolton and the club to take this approach, but I think some of this can be undone by players being gifted games.
Not having a crack at you, but I still haven't seen anyone give me a reason why Thomas walks straight back into our best 22.

Composure, experience.

He hasn't got a lot of runs on the board of late, but with limited rotations and us fielding a largely inexperienced side with lots of new faces trying to gel together, I think composure and class esp late in games would be good for us right now.

It was Q4 we blew it last week.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

You'd have to think, Charlie Curnow being named in the Emerg 2 weeks running , it would be likely he will play seniors this week.

Hope so.

 

[Big Sim is Back]

if Daisy Thomas had, say, the limited ability of Tom Bell, but gave his usual 100 per cent effort, we would all be singing his praises, making excuses for his shortcomings, and starting him every week.

But because he is the highest paid player at the club, an MM fave, a former Pie, and is not the player he once was, well, on the scrapheap with him.

Lucky the coaches of the club understand his worth.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

I think we are flogging a dead horse here HBF. However, I will state for the record that: I would LOVE NOTHING MORE, than to see a fit, firing and productive Thomas on the park, I just have reservations as to whether that will ever happen (Opinion only). I will be the first to admit after stringing 3-4 quality games together that I was wrong.

Daisy is a confidence player and I truly believe that he needs to go back to the Bullants to find both touch and confidence, otherwise, it sends a damning precedent to the up and comers, and for that matter the rest of the playing group, does that make sense?

However I absolutely stand on the premise that players need to be picked by merit otherwise we go back to playing favourites. As HBF has said probably better than me, is WHY is Daisy being automatically selected? It cannot be on form I have watched in the last 2 years at CFC so it must be on memories of deeds past ...............

Like Soapy said a few posts ago put the BEST team on the park. That doesn't mean putting the hypothetically best team on the park. But the BEST team that covers matchups, spread, run, mobility, shutdowns and the biggest one FORM!

I agree that the argument is pretty much done, but I do find it interesting that a 180 odd game veteran with runs on the board can be questioned on selection, but Weitering and C. Curnow aren't.
I'm as excited as the next person to see both of these guys get games and develop, but what exactly have they done?

 

[TheCoach16]

I'm happy for Bolton and the club to take this approach, but I think some of this can be undone by players being gifted games.
Not having a crack at you, but I still haven't seen anyone give me a reason why Thomas walks straight back into our best 22.

No one has given you a reason, because there simply isn't one. Even His biggest fan couldn't possibly justify this "automatic, walk up start, has to play" decision.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

No one has given you a reason, because there simply isn't one. Even His biggest fan couldn't possibly justify this "automatic, walk up start, has to play" decision.

Is that the reason? Or have reasons already been supplied but unwilling to be accepted as 'valid'?
I think the fact that he's trained well and had one good NAB game out of two, is reason enough. If it was enough for him to get a start in round 1 had he not been suspended, then it's enough reason now. I think that's a valid reason. You, HBF and a few others probably don't. That's fine, but it also suggests that we aren't going to be able to provide a reason that you consider 'valid'.
Rowe trained well and had a bad NAB run. Everitt trained well and had a bad NAB run. Simmo, same. Murphy trained well after leaving the rehab group and played no NAB games. All of these players played round 1. Weitering played round 1 purely on the back of good training and NAB form, with no exposed senior form.

 

[NOCLUE]

All of these are valid enough points, and if we see these out on the ground then we'll all be happy. I'm not a Daisy hater, far from it, but my concern is that he's being gifted a game here when he really doesn't deserve it.

If I go by your reasoning then Gibbs should never of played rd 1 as his 2015 output was extremely poor and his 2016 NAB games weren't
much better. Maybe he should've been made to earn a game through the 2's as well.

 

[Navara79]

No one has given you a reason, because there simply isn't one. Even His biggest fan couldn't possibly justify this "automatic, walk up start, has to play" decision.

People have posted plenty of reasons why he is a walk up start. You don't agree with them. That's perfectly ok

 

[HARKER]

Daisy is a confidence player and I truly believe that he needs to go back to the Bullants to find both touch and confidence, otherwise, it sends a damning precedent to the up and comers, and for that matter the rest of the playing group, does that make sense?

However I absolutely stand on the premise that players need to be picked by merit otherwise we go back to playing favourites. As HBF has said probably better than me, is WHY is Daisy being automatically selected? It cannot be on form I have watched in the last 2 years at CFC so it must be on memories of deeds past ...............

Like Soapy said a few posts ago put the BEST team on the park. That doesn't mean putting the hypothetically best team on the park. But the BEST team that covers matchups, spread, run, mobility, shutdowns and the biggest one FORM!

Sounds like you may know something Bolton doesn't.

You can see how this comes across, don't you?

 

[CUG81]

Daisy coming in so easily doesn't sit well with me either. Right now we are trying to build a team and instill a good culture that has been lacking for quite some time. A player who has missed last season and gets suspended for round 1 should not be walking into this team that easily considering the effort that was given by the players last week against Richmond.

I would be playing Daisy in the 2s until he proves he can play at the level he needs to at AFL level.