Ruckman top 10

[p4p1]

Lol, in what world is Naitanui more versatile? You can't play guys that big that are unable to mark the ball in any other position.

Gawn's one of the best contested marks of all time, and can play all over the ground (a testament to not only his ability, but his endurance).

Poorly phrased on my part. Nic Nat should be more versatile. He should be the toughest matchup in the AFL. He's 6'8, has one of the highest recorded leaps in the game, is insanely quick, seems to outmuscle almost everyone he has ever played against and is very good for a big man when the ball hits the deck. If he doesn't have the gas tank to play in the ruck full time that's fine, sometimes guys who are that explosive can never build up to being a great endurance athlete. But those attributes I outlined should be able to make him a dominant key forward or key back. Whether he had the footy IQ for that is another question entirely.

 

[Lingsface]

Gawn is Mike’s ahead of Nic Nat. Nic Nat Dominique Wilkins human highlight reel, Max Gawn

11

Max Gawn

Age

32

Ht

209cm

Wt

110kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

7.4

3star

HB

6.7

4star

CL

2.8

4star

HO

35.3

5star

D

18.5

4star

K

11.5

4star

HB

7.0

4star

CL

3.5

4star

HO

29.2

5star

D

8.4

3star

K

3.6

2star

HB

4.8

4star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

15.6

5star

Shaquille ONeal best big man for along time.

 

[Lingsface]

Both iconic players though and would have made their clubs alot of money! The amount of Nic Nat jerseys and clothing posters etc would of been so far beyond any other eagle since cousins Judd era.

 

[Shueygod]

I also don’t see how the fact Naitanui has a very similar impact in 20% less game time is held against him.

We aren’t replacing him with a traffic cone (perhaps recently it’s been close to) when he’s not in the ruck, another player is racking up those possessions.

Hence why in 20/21 we statistically had the best ruck combo despite having a couple of average options as second ruck.

 

[Scythe94]

So he gets 2 less effective possessions, less marks, far more clearances, likely a similar number of hit outs to advantage and more tackles over their careers.

Gawn also has more flangers and turnovers.

Statistically it’s actually pretty even, guess it depends on if you want a few more marks and touches a game or one of the best clearance players in the comp.

Kind of like comparing Oliver and peak Andrew Gaff, I know who I’m taking between those two.

Considering Gawn averaged more hitouts to advantage in 2021, 2019, 2018, 2017 (Naitanui didn't play), 2016 and 2015 (i.e. the years since Gawn started playing regular AFL – they were tied in 2022), I'd point out that you're just blatantly making up stats now.

I'd expect Gawn to average more turnovers since he gets the ball more.

So basically, Gawn is the better tap ruckman, and better around the ground, and has won more than triple the major awards over the course of his career. I can't exactly see what the argument for Naitanui is here.

 

[Shueygod]

Considering Gawn averaged more hitouts to advantage in 2021, 2019, 2018, 2017 (Naitanui didn't play), 2016 and 2015 (i.e. the years since Gawn started playing regular AFL – they were tied in 2022), I'd point out that you're just blatantly making up stats now.

I'd expect Gawn to average more turnovers since he gets the ball more.

So basically, Gawn is the better tap ruckman, and better around the ground, and has won more than triple the major awards over the course of his career. I can't exactly see what the argument for Naitanui is here.

Gawn is pretty obviously not the better tap ruckman for anyone that actually watches them.

I think better around the ground is pretty subjective as well, would you say that peak Gaff was better around the ground than Petracca last year?

I know which I’d be taking, but you seem to value marks and uncontested possessions very highly.

 

[00Stinger]

You're right, didn't even need h to wipe the floor with Melbourne in the 2018 prelim.

How'd Gawn go that day?

cool, you wiped the floor with us that day. Never seen a champion player have a bad game?

Gawn didn't have a great day, but for my mind he more than made up for it in the 21 preliminary final and the following fortnight when he was premiership captain

 

[Scythe94]

Gawn is pretty obviously not the better tap ruckman for anyone that actually watches them.

I think better around the ground is pretty subjective as well, would you say that peak Gaff was better around the ground than Petracca last year?

I know which I’d be taking, but you seem to value marks and uncontested possessions very highly.

a. Disagree over the course of their careers, though Gawn's ruckwork isn't what it once was
b. Holy false equivalence batman! Gaff seagulling around the ground for uncontested marks hardly bares any relevance to Gawn being in the top 15 contested marks of all-time.

 

[Shueygod]

I’m not even arguing that Naitanui has had a better career than Gawn.

Gawn deserves to be higher on this list imo, but one being the “clear best of this generation” and the other not being in people’s top 20 is simply wrong, it’s a pretty minimal gap between the two.

 

[00Stinger]

Nik Nat averages 0.8 more clearances than Gawn over their careers, would have thought it was like 5 more a game the way the Wet Toast fans are talking

Anyway I'll take a 6 time AA, 2 x b&f winning, 1 x AFLCA winning, 1 x Premiership captain over a 2 x AA with cool hair anyday

And just for the record NikNat has played 30 odd more games than Gawn but apparently Nik Nak has been more injury prone

Both have had 2 knee recos too

 

[00Stinger]

I’m not even arguing that Naitanui has had a better career than Gawn.

Gawn deserves to be higher on this list imo, but one being the “clear best of this generation” and the other not being in people’s top 20 is simply wrong, it’s a pretty minimal gap between the two.

4 AA's, 1 x AFLCA award & 1 premiership (as captain)

hahaha there is almost a hall of fame career difference between the two of them

 

[Shueygod]

a. Disagree over the course of their careers, though Gawn's ruckwork isn't what it once was
b. Holy false equivalence batman! Gaff seagulling around the ground for uncontested marks hardly bares any relevance to Gawn being in the top 10 contested marks (for players over 100 games) of all-time.

Right but we’re talking 1 maybe 2 contested marks a game, in terms of overall
impact for mine contested marks are pretty irrelevant (key forwards being an exception)

His contested marking has come up huge in some crucial moments, but I can’t say I’ve ever worried about how many contested marks the ruck is going to get coming into a game.

 

[Shueygod]

Nik Nat averages 0.8 more clearances than Gawn over their careers, would have thought it was like 5 more a game the way the Wet Toast fans are talking

Anyway I'll take a 6 time AA, 2 x b&f winning, 1 x AFLCA winning, 1 x Premiership captain over a 2 x AA with cool hair anyday

And just for the record NikNat has played 30 odd more games than Gawn but apparently Nik Nak has been more injury prone

Both have had 2 knee recos too

3 x AA, 2 x b&f.

 

[00Stinger]

3 x AA, 2 x b&f.

I guess that makes your argument slightly less embarrassing for yourself

 

[Shueygod]

I guess that makes your argument slightly less embarrassing for yourself

Again I’m not arguing who’s had the better career, but when you look at the stats (clearances and contested marks for mine are similar), you’re looking at a couple of uncontested marks and effective disposals being the difference vs an extra tackle.

Do you think that gap justifies the difference in reputation?

 

[Trav 20]

This is coming from an old Ruck for what it's worth...

Farmer, Nicholls and Simon Madden are the standouts for mine. The first 2 were magnificent as rucks...their records speak for themselves. I have only seen highlights though so am going by what I have seen from video and online.

Simon Madden is the best I have seen...easily. He was a fantastic mark, excellent tap ruckman (his technique was sensational the way he leaped and tapped) and on top of that, he kicked almost 600 goals. 600 goals as a ruck...that is obscene!! To the poster who said he is overrated, you in my humble opinion know zero about the game. That is probably one of the worst posts I have seen on BF for the entire time I have been on here.



Spot on about Dempsey. I would take him above Gawn. Sure Gawn moves better but different training would have Dempsey at Gawn's level easily. Gawn is still very good and the best going around of the current rucks.

Dean Cox was good but so was Stynes...they both were very similiar.

NicNat is a very good tap ruck and clearance player but his marking is poor for a ruck. No way he gets on a Best of alltime list.

Did I mention Simon Madden kicked almost 600 goals as an elite ruckman?!

Yes, Madden was a great ruck/forward. An incredible mark.

If anything, I reckon Gawn is underrated by many modern footy pundits.

His contested marking numbers is double that of Dean Cox and as an interesting aside, he has 30 more Brownlow votes than Cox from 110 less games. Btw, I'm not suggesting that that's a significant measure, but it's interesting nonetheless.

I watched a lot of games from the 70s during the off season on Fox and was shocked how bad the standard was. We tend to look at the past through rose coloured glasses, but the athletes of today are pretty incredible. Obviously those from the past would emulate those from today with contemporary training standards.

Cox was more skilful than Gawn, but I suspect by the end of his career Gawn will be considered one of the most effective rucks of all time and in my biased opinion doesn't pale in any comparison to past players.

 

[00Stinger]

Again I’m not arguing who’s had the better career, but when you look at the stats (clearances and contested marks for mine are similar), you’re looking at a couple of uncontested marks and effective disposals being the difference vs an extra tackle.

Do you think that gap justifies the difference in reputation?

Yes, I do. Cherry picking stats or using stats doesn't tell the full picture

Teams try to play and run the ball away from Gawn because he is so dominant. His endurance is elite, he is a leader, he has been regardedin the top 20 players in the league for what 7 years now.

 

[Shueygod]

Yes, I do. Cherry picking stats or using stats doesn't tell the full picture

Teams try to play and run the ball away from Gawn because he is so dominant. His endurance is elite, he is a leader, he has been regardedin the top 20 players in the league for what 7 years now.

I can tell you teams have been avoiding kicking to the Naitanui side his whole career.

Not huge on that argument.

 

[nineteen eighty]

True enough but you're selling quite a few of the old fellas short.

• Len Thompson won a Brownlow as a ruckman and was easily in the same category as Farmer and Nicholls. Some rate "Thommo" as the first of the truly mobile giant ruckmen (Farmer was after all at 6'2 merely an oversized ruck-rover).
• Carl Ditterich could play a bit as well (he wasn't JUST a hitman) and his physical style was quite confronting to lots of the taller types.
• Mark Lee was another ruck who ran straight and hit hard...and won plenty of premierships to boot.
• Barry Round, Graham Teasdale, Graham Moss, even Percy Jones were very effective ruckmen.

The fact that Madden kicked that many goals should actually show you that he didn't play as many minutes as you think as an actual ruckman. His early career he played second fiddle to Graham Jenkin and Graham Moss for 3-4 years, then Kevin Sheedy preferred to use physical centre bounce and around the ground rucks (Peter Keenan) and leave Madden as a front half ruckman alongside Max Crow and a young Roger Merrett. By 1980 his brother Justin had arrived and Sheeds preferred again to leave Simon Madden as a proxy full forward/ front half ruckman.

It wasn't until the arrival of Paul Salmon in 1983 (and the departure of his brother Justin to Carlton) that Sheedy finally let Simon Madden play as a full time ruckman. His results over the next few years (and the fact that the Bombers won two flags in that period) probably established in everyone's minds that Madden was in fact a ruckman but as you can see, 80% of his career to that stage had been played as a full forward.

In the latter half of the 80's when Simon Madden was getting on a bit Sheedy again preferred using him as a quasi forward, sharing the ruck duties with Paul Salmon who'd returned after his ACL surgery. Sheedy always a proponent of large/physical rucks brought in a young John Barnes and then Peter Somerville. An aside with Sheedy was that he always had these tall physical players playing Key positions (Max Crow, Kevin Walsh, Ron Andrews, Paul Van Der Haar, Roger Merrett....so he always had plenty of talls to contest any ball ups anywhere on the ground, thus reducing the need for a full time ruckman as most other teams featured at the time. Sheedy was very big on his team being flexible and able to play multiple positions. Simon Madden may have appeared on the team sheet in the ruckman's spot but he very rarely played more than 30-40% of a game there.

So in essence 600 goals for a ruckman??? it's incredulous, but its also a pretty big lie.

Dempsey was a magnificent defensive ruckman. He would easily best Gawn as a pack marking ruckman and his ability to recover following being badly burned in the '66 Lara Bushfires demonstrated his mental toughness. He rarely pushed forward, but his ability to assist his defenders with timely marks was legendary.


I agree but they were both pretty poor copies of Peter Moore. Moore was so dominant around the ground and at centre clearances that he had to have a new rule brought in to counter him. When he and Gary Dempsey wrestled their way through the 1979 PF the VFL administrators hated the look so much that they brought in the "centre line" for the 1980 season. Moore loved it actually because he had such a great leap, but it seriously depleted the careers of the "body ruckmen"....the likes of Nicholls, Farmer and Dempsey would never be seen again.
Peter Moore won 2 Brownlow's as a freewheeling ruckman. Cox and Stynes (who actually learned his craft under Moore at Melbourne) were his contemporaries.

Agreed

Yeah you did, but he was largely a full forward so there is no real argument there!

Excellent post. I don't have time right now to address all your points. Regardless, some excellent points.

Where would Peter Moore rank?

To the both of you, yep you're right about Moore. I was in a hurry this morning and skipped right over him. He was better than Stynes and Cox.

 

[masai tu]

Naitanuis been better than Gawn when fit.

When fit .......

 

[Lampers]

I can tell you teams have been avoiding kicking to the Naitanui side his whole career.

Not huge on that argument.

Ok, on this I agree.

Why would a team deliberately try and kick the ball to the interchange bench?

 

[GWT6]

Right but we’re talking 1 maybe 2 contested marks a game, in terms of overall
impact for mine contested marks are pretty irrelevant (key forwards being an exception)

His contested marking has come up huge in some crucial moments, but I can’t say I’ve ever worried about how many contested marks the ruck is going to get coming into a game.

I have the opposite view to you. Contested marking and marking around the ground are the most important attributes of a ruckman in my opinion. Teams need a couple of very good contested marks.

Clearances can come from half a dozen other players, same with tackling. Getting first hands to the ball in a ruck contest doesn't really impact the number of clearances won.
The best value of a player like Gawn is what I call the "get out kick" - If Melbourne are struggling to break a zone or the other team is manning up, or it's a close game and need to ensure they retain possession - kick it to Gawn down the line. It will either be a mark or a throw-in. Sandilands was probably the best I have seen with this.

Second most important is being about to change the opposition's setups in the forward and back 50 with his marking. If a player has marked 55 out, Gawn goes to the goal square and 18 blokes on the other team are focused on him
If it's a close game and Melbourne are up, put Gawn back in the hole and he is a one-man wall with his marking and endurance.

 

[Saab NLAW]

4 out of 5 played for or play for the team you just happen to barrack for lol. Any list that includes Jamar…

 

[owen87]

Natanui is the modern ruck you'd choose if everyone was fresh and you needed to impact that one single ruck contest right now IMO. His impact play at a stoppage is exceptional and the follow-on effect it has on how the WCE midfield sets up, but his relative lack of tank and low impact outside of that stops him from being an out and out ruck great.

From a structural point of view you can't run Natanui as a sole ruck, because he only plays what, 60% - 70% game time at most? So you're relying on 30 - 40% coverage from your second ruckman.

Gawn is less impactful at a single stoppage, but his endurance and versatility makes him a much more complete player. Goldstein always criminally underrated in these discussions, his ability to carry 90% odd game time in the ruck and durability puts him right around the Top-10 IMO.

Sandy is probably the only ruckman without versatility that makes the all-time list simply because he was so dominant at stoppages with his ruck craft alone.

 

[Saab NLAW]

Again I’m not arguing who’s had the better career, but when you look at the stats (clearances and contested marks for mine are similar), you’re looking at a couple of uncontested marks and effective disposals being the difference vs an extra tackle.

Do you think that gap justifies the difference in reputation?

You're now just embarrassing yourself, anyone who knows anything about football understands the difference between the two players.

One is a see ball/get ball type of player, the other is an all-time great.

Thanks for the entertainment though, always grateful to come to BF and have a laugh