Strategy Should we trade Rance to West Coast involving Liam Duggan and get Paddy Dangerfield?

[ReaperX]

I was confused until I realised you were a Carlton supporter versus Richmond supporter!.

I think Rance is well ahead of Kruzuer in the value stakes to the point it just would not happen. I would not trade Rance for Kruzuer and then some, and some more again honestly.

My gut impression is your trying to dump Kruzeur. Can't see that happening even after Hampson

List management advice from a Carlton supporter after trading out Kennedy and more for Judd. Mmm can't see us making that mistake!

Nah bro, I would trade Rance for Kruezer... on the proviso that Carlton finished in the Bottom 3 or 4 this year, got pick #3 or #4 in the draft, and also gave us that pick as well.

Rance for Kruezer as a straight swap would be absolutely crazy on our part though.

It would be "McMahon for Pick #19" type of stupid.

 

[ReaperX]

Without worrying about names from a generalist perspective in terms of total list management, eg. Lids, JR, Cotch, Rance, Dusty and there are sure to be others. Is it realistic to assume we are a high chance not to lose any over the next 8 years via FA?

So where I am coming from is is it prudent for RFC to adopt counter measures which suits the players individually and as a group along with the club to benefit everyones interests and success? It might be advisable to be a little proactive in this area rather than totally reactive!

It is pretty realistic I think, actually.

- Jack will never leave us, he is the soul of Richmond, and will stay with us as a career player, just like Richo did. I'd put everything I own on that. He is absolutely Richmond through and through.
- Lids is signed already until he's 30+
- Cotch is signed already until he's 30+
- Rance should stick around, he's one of our core players, however until he's signs there is always a chance he could go. However from the way he carries himself around the club, he's got almost as much passion for Richmond as JR does, or close to, so I think it's a slim chance of him leaving unless Dockers offer him 1 million+ per year for 7 years, or something crazy like that. In which case, honestly I wouldn't begrudge him of leaving for that type of offer. But I doubt he'll be offered that much.
- Dusty is the one I'm worried about. He could potentially leave if offered big bucks, however at the same time, we've been down that road before, and since him staying last time, I think Richmond is far more entrenched in him now than before. But of our Big 5, he's the most likely chance of leaving I think. Still don't believe he will though.

The guys we need to make sure we don't lose are our 2nd tier guys like Astbury (22), Grimes (23), Conca (22), Griffiths (22), Vlastuin (20), and B. Ellis (21). Their improvement is what will take us to the Top 4 and beyond, and even though all of those guys are already pretty solid, they can get better. There are others too, of course, but those guys come to mind as some of our most important.

The point is, bringing in superstars from the outside isn't the way we need to go. We just need to continue developing the top end talent we've got, and keep improving from within. Whilst getting someone of the ilk of Dangerfield would be awesome, if we'd have to lose Rance to get him, it wouldn't be worth it. We should only be adding stars from other clubs once we have retained all of our own potential stars first.

People keep saying our list has heaps of "holes", but honestly I don't think we have as many holes as some people think. We're thin in the ruck division, and we probably need one or two more quality mids to push guys like Grigg and Petterd out of the team, but aside from that our KPF and KPD stocks are looking pretty good, and our midfield can slice teams open when it's firing on all cylinders.

If we got Dangerfield, yes we'd be a premiership contender. But even without him, we should still be pushing for Top 4 in the next 2-4 years, provided that we continue to develop our own talent, and don't lose anybody of significance.

I've been saying this for a few years now, but I feel we are very much on a similar trajectory as North Melbourne, with the difference being that our top end talent is much younger than theirs by a fairly large margin. I think our 2015 will be much like their 2014 was, hopefully minus some of the inconsistency.

In other words, Top 4 is very achievable in 2015.

 

[theflea]

I rate Rance very highly, in fact I'd be happy for Carlton to trade Kruezer for him (would never happen though)

Rance, for all the debate of his kicking skills, is just about the only tall defender that towels up Lance Franklin on a regular basis.

He is arguably your 2nd most valuable player after Cotchin, a prized asset that shouldn't be traded under any circumstances..

There is a glut of star young mids coming out of contract soon (Aish, Treloar, Shield etc) there is absolutely no need for the Tiges to sacrifice an AA defender to get Dangerfield, it would be more then robbing Peter to pay Paul, it'd be Grand Theft Punt Rd Oval.

Agree, but I would also say this idea he butchers the ball, as yesteryear issues. his kicking is pretty good by and large and like all players can turn it over sometimes. I have seen the same from the stars of the comp, so Rance is no different.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

It is pretty realistic I think, actually.

- Jack will never leave us, he is the soul of Richmond, and will stay with us as a career player, just like Richo did. I'd put everything I own on that. He is absolutely Richmond through and through.
- Lids is signed already until he's 30+
- Cotch is signed already until he's 30+
- Rance should stick around, he's one of our core players, however until he's signs there is always a chance he could go. However from the way he carries himself around the club, he's got almost as much passion for Richmond as JR does, or close to, so I think it's a slim chance of him leaving unless Dockers offer him 1 million+ per year for 7 years, or something crazy like that. In which case, honestly I wouldn't begrudge him of leaving for that type of offer. But I doubt he'll be offered that much.
- Dusty is the one I'm worried about. He could potentially leave if offered big bucks, however at the same time, we've been down that road before, and since him staying last time, I think Richmond is far more entrenched in him now than before. But of our Big 5, he's the most likely chance of leaving I think. Still don't believe he will though.

The guys we need to make sure we don't lose are our 2nd tier guys like Astbury (22), Grimes (23), Conca (22), Griffiths (22), Vlastuin (20), and B. Ellis (21). Their improvement is what will take us to the Top 4 and beyond, and even though all of those guys are already pretty solid, they can get better. There are others too, of course, but those guys come to mind as some of our most important.

The point is, bringing in superstars from the outside isn't the way we need to go. We just need to continue developing the top end talent we've got, and keep improving from within. Whilst getting someone of the ilk of Dangerfield would be awesome, if we'd have to lose Rance to get him, it wouldn't be worth it. We should only be adding stars from other clubs once we have retained all of our own potential stars first.

People keep saying our list has heaps of "holes", but honestly I don't think we have as many holes as some people think. We're thin in the ruck division, and we probably need one or two more quality mids to push guys like Grigg and Petterd out of the team, but aside from that our KPF and KPD stocks are looking pretty good, and our midfield can slice teams open when it's firing on all cylinders.

If we got Dangerfield, yes we'd be a premiership contender. But even without him, we should still be pushing for Top 4 in the next 2-4 years, provided that we continue to develop our own talent, and don't lose anybody of significance.

I've been saying this for a few years now, but I feel we are very much on a similar trajectory as North Melbourne, with the difference being that our top end talent is much younger than theirs by a fairly large margin. I think our 2015 will be much like their 2014 was, hopefully minus some of the inconsistency.

In other words, Top 4 is very achievable in 2015.

Great Post Reaper.
Use to be dead keen on Dangerfield,But if there is a chance it might cause unrest in our group then perhaps the Jack Steven as an FA and Sheils as a trade might be the best path for us.

 

[Mr Magic]

Nah bro, I would trade Rance for Kruezer... on the proviso that Carlton finished in the Bottom 3 or 4 this year, got pick #3 or #4 in the draft, and also gave us that pick as well.

Rance for Kruezer as a straight swap would be absolutely crazy on our part though.

It would be "McMahon for Pick #19" type of stupid.

The thing is if a Carlton supporter says we shouldn't do it it kinda is a endorsement we should do it in a way because isn't that the fear RFC pull off something like that coming through possibly meaning more pain for CFC?

 

[Mr Magic]

It is pretty realistic I think, actually.

- Jack will never leave us, he is the soul of Richmond, and will stay with us as a career player, just like Richo did. I'd put everything I own on that. He is absolutely Richmond through and through.
- Lids is signed already until he's 30+
- Cotch is signed already until he's 30+
- Rance should stick around, he's one of our core players, however until he's signs there is always a chance he could go. However from the way he carries himself around the club, he's got almost as much passion for Richmond as JR does, or close to, so I think it's a slim chance of him leaving unless Dockers offer him 1 million+ per year for 7 years, or something crazy like that. In which case, honestly I wouldn't begrudge him of leaving for that type of offer. But I doubt he'll be offered that much.
- Dusty is the one I'm worried about. He could potentially leave if offered big bucks, however at the same time, we've been down that road before, and since him staying last time, I think Richmond is far more entrenched in him now than before. But of our Big 5, he's the most likely chance of leaving I think. Still don't believe he will though.

The guys we need to make sure we don't lose are our 2nd tier guys like Astbury (22), Grimes (23), Conca (22), Griffiths (22), Vlastuin (20), and B. Ellis (21). Their improvement is what will take us to the Top 4 and beyond, and even though all of those guys are already pretty solid, they can get better. There are others too, of course, but those guys come to mind as some of our most important.

The point is, bringing in superstars from the outside isn't the way we need to go. We just need to continue developing the top end talent we've got, and keep improving from within. Whilst getting someone of the ilk of Dangerfield would be awesome, if we'd have to lose Rance to get him, it wouldn't be worth it. We should only be adding stars from other clubs once we have retained all of our own potential stars first.

People keep saying our list has heaps of "holes", but honestly I don't think we have as many holes as some people think. We're thin in the ruck division, and we probably need one or two more quality mids to push guys like Grigg and Petterd out of the team, but aside from that our KPF and KPD stocks are looking pretty good, and our midfield can slice teams open when it's firing on all cylinders.

If we got Dangerfield, yes we'd be a premiership contender. But even without him, we should still be pushing for Top 4 in the next 2-4 years, provided that we continue to develop our own talent, and don't lose anybody of significance.

I've been saying this for a few years now, but I feel we are very much on a similar trajectory as North Melbourne, with the difference being that our top end talent is much younger than theirs by a fairly large margin. I think our 2015 will be much like their 2014 was, hopefully minus some of the inconsistency.

In other words, Top 4 is very achievable in 2015.

I am not sure on this confidence. The 2nd tier leaving us isn't too much of a worry except for the younger ones because they are theoretically closer to our
window.

This whole option is more about reshaping RFC's list like Collingwood than necessarily chasing A superstar like Dangerfield. CFC with Judd is a great beacon that overpaying for Dangerfield could be counter productive. So when one are talks about re-shaping one is talking about getting a younger Duggan in to bolster our half backline and midfield for years to come, already played with new Ellis/McKenzie etc.. I think. Hopefully snaging Talia which means you are younger again and it helps attract the likes of Fyfe and Gunston all in Dusty's draft year as their windows all coincide. We might not get Talia but the money is their to chase another or front load Dusty and chase the guns later. It would really boosts our premiership chances in 3-6 years helping JR and Lids snag a premiership at RFC.

We can't afford to lose Dusty IMO. He is the glue which keeps the list management belief together due to his timeline and ability as well as robustness. Keep Dusty and we can start to make a solid argument with substance to attract players later like Hawthorn IMO in the sense we are talking real premiership chances not just top 4 likelyhood's ala North Melbourne.

I get the feeling you might underrate what we need to achieve to actually position ourselves to truely get into contention. I agree we need to continue to develop, but we also need to bolster our list with quality as well that suits a real window opportunity if we are a real chance in 3+years IMO. If we have to let someone go to shape it that way a the player has his own benefits going to another destination club maybe it is the best way. I don't think saying everybody needs to stick fat to one club is the best way to reach ultimate success. That is too unrealistic IMO as many stories come in different shapes and sizes. Sometimes some re-modelling might be the best way to go for all parties so everybody gets the right fit as to how they reach their goals. This is a little overly simplistic but if Duggan is more beneficial for RFC shaping our list and Rance is more beneficial to WC shaping their lists to both our premiership goals, including involving the players in such premiership goals why fight it? I am not saying this is necessarily the case but conceptually surely one would have to think about it if this is indeed close to a reality.

I am not buying this top up policy of chasing a Shiel or Stevens here and there. That is real amteur stuff and if it was that easy everyone would do it. To me it is like RFC is cracking the whip on the horse in the back straight of the Melbourne Cup with these simple add ons like North so you have no real chance being at the post at the finish line. IMO it is far smarter to think multi-dimensionally, be patient, pick the smart route, and when you get to the final straight unload with quality inclusions with strategic timing to ensure we are strong enough at the line to surge to victory then and going forward!

 

[Stylo]

 

[wadistance]

Bump. I don't think Duggan is going anywhere. Crazy how most of the supporters on our board praising him were cursing him/calling him marshmellow immediately post draft

 

[Mr Magic]

Bump. I don't think Duggan is going anywhere. Crazy how most of the supporters on our board praising him were cursing him/calling him marshmellow immediately post draft

Too late.


Thats why we got C Ellis and Menaude.

Expect him to come back within 9 years via FA if possible as probably as West Coast searching through their next rebuild after Kennedy etc...

 

[SdKfz 181]

This guy continually on drugs?

 

[Mr Magic]

This guy continually on drugs?

Na just showing why organisations have 5 year and 10 year plans really to be honest

 

[jc12]

I thought this was a serious post till I saw it was by mr magic

 

[Funky Chicken]

This guy continually on drugs?

Yes.

Yes he is.

 

[Funky Chicken]

Is he still telling everyone that Richmond should go after Bartel?

 

[TheTigerArmy]

What is this, where am I?

You are in an Assylum where Mr Magic is the Warden

 

[Mr Magic]

Is he still telling everyone that Richmond should go after Bartel?

whats wrong with that?

Bartel loves the place.

You only have to see him long down when Maxwell trashes RFC on the Sunday program like after the North match in Tassie.

Bartel is a great option as a possible future assistant coach and helps give us temporary relief in the ruck rover area.

Who is our standout ruck rover atm?? Exactly we have none.

Martin just pitches in taking away from his deadly forward forays.

He surely would improve our clearance know how.

Couple of years from Bartel before his retirement could be terrific and just enough for us to pinch hit a premiership with a few other additions.

I would rather Bartel at value in the guts for us than the likes of Armitage FFS in the pressure of a final!



I am pretty sure the likes of Dusty would listen to Bartel's clearance advice and other thoughts, he did win a brown low in the past after all!

It is not like Geelong are desperate for him to stay when entering a rebuilding phase

If thats the reinforcement to attract the likes of Danger why not?

It is not like getting Bartel gets in the way of us developing the likes of C Ellis and Menadue etc.. not to mention other top draft hopefuls in our brigade for the future!

We all know Bartel is not the player he was, but in a guts role where pace is not paramount, among pacy players and in other roles using his guile and smarts I have little doubt he would be very effective for us at value on and off the field. I have no doubt the whole place would lift again with tiger supporter Bartel walking through the place. A far better option than Chapman even if he may not make the final cut for our possible GF side if he played for us. Who knows though, he might get a brief second wind playing for a surging Tigers in the twilight of his career!

 

[TJTIGER]

Some of the things you said I can understand mrmagic . Much would depend on how he comes back from injury? Also I agree he would have more impact than cats x chappy.

 

[Mr Magic]

Some of the things you said I can understand mrmagic . Much would depend on how he comes back from injury? Also I agree he would have more impact than cats x chappy.

The main thing for me is he can help in our major area of weakness. Apart from that Dusty and others can play in more dangerous roles more forward or in one on one match ups if Bartel offers a chop out and supports the back half more.

If his acquisition helped get Dangerfield it would be a major coup, but I do not think he would be a burden at least initially. He always relied on his smarts rather than pace and I think the way Geelong played him later before this year has not suited him away from the middle underscoring him IMO. He is still dangerous forward when resting with a dangerous kick for goal.

If time passed him by, which will happen, I am confident he would give it away with no fuss, seems a humble type, whether assistant coach interests him or not is to be decided I suppose. The contracts put out would have to be value to each party probably year on year. If the club were happy to give him a assistant coach option I think it would help to. The other benefit is the leadership and guidance he can provide to Dusty, C Ellis and others not to mention support to the likes of Cotch and Lids. Having a few contemporary elder wise heads about also helps the stability of the leadership on and off the field to

 

[TJTIGER]

The main thing for me is he can help in our major area of weakness. Apart from that Dusty and others can play in more dangerous roles more forward or in one on one match ups if Bartel offers a chop out and supports the back half more.

If his acquisition helped get Dangerfield it would be a major coup, but I do not think he would be a burden at least initially. He always relied on his smarts rather than pace and I think the way Geelong played him later before this year has not suited him away from the middle underscoring him IMO. He is still dangerous forward when resting with a dangerous kick for goal.

If time passed him by, which will happen, I am confident he would give it away with no fuss, seems a humble type, whether assistant coach interests him or not is to be decided I suppose. The contracts put out would have to be value to each party probably year on year. If the club were happy to give him a assistant coach option I think it would help to. The other benefit is the leadership and guidance he can provide to Dusty, C Ellis and others not to mention support to the likes of Cotch and Lids.

Also cost to us would be a very important issue. Goes without saying , but I said it....

 

[SpudsLoveChild]

I'd love to see some more realistic trades and recruitment targets.

How about Jesus playing CHF, Buddha in the middle and Satan in white boots running around at CHB going the knuckle.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Rance is more important for our structure than Duggan and Paddy. Chaplin has been serviceable and is in his twilight years. Astbury is still an unknown quantity. If we lose Rance it would be a major blow to the list.

Adding Duggan and Paddy to the midfield would make our midfield almost unstoppable for many years but it isn't worth if for making the list unbalanced IMO.

No problem. Get paddy , and then tempt Carlisle away from the drug cheat provided he doesn't get two years

 

[SunshineBoy]

No because you need All Australian Full Backs to win a flag!

Welcome back

 

[Mr Magic]

Also cost to us would be a very important issue. Goes without saying , but I said it....

Thats one of the main reasons he has my interest.

A 32 year old FA agent Bartel should not cost too much year on year.

Cheaper than most other ready made options anyway.

Cost is not just about money either. It is also about draft picks.

We need to ensure we are even stronger in 2018 and beyond probably when Bartel moves on from us if he came if he has not left before from on-field!

 

[sregit]

Just dribble. Why would West Coast trade for Rance when if he was prepared to go to WC they could get him as an unrestricted FA. What an idiot suggestion.

 

[caroma]

******* hell. who dragged this back up?