The Doping Tribunal Report: The Age

[Iskender Time]

burden of proof is on ASADA, they have to establish to the comfortable satisfaction of the tribunal that players actually took TB4 - if they had established that, then issues about player responsibility of what goes into their system come into play

trial bottles etc are important, but whsts the evidence that the players used those bottles - it's about what the players actually took

Dank said in an interview they were using it. It was on consent forms. Dosages discussed for tb4 matched the forms. This result is busllshit.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Blah blah blah, not guilty, that is all they said that matters.

All the rest is background noise to try and make out they were tough.

If a player were to demand to know what they were injected with and Essendon cannot tell them.

That opens up a some serious issues that are probably worse then what any ASADA/WADA ban can do.

 

[BM123]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...g-was-deplorable-20150331-1mc8hi.html?stb=twt

Drug record keeping 'deplorable'.

Tribunal could not be comfortably satisfied that the players took the banned drug thymosin beta-4

Tribunal noted that "it is the responsibility of the club to ensure that complete and accurate records are kept".

Consent forms "alarmingly inadequate".

far too much reliance on Mr [Stephen] Dank

It's clear the players had no actual knowledge of the substance with which they were injected.

"There is evidence from a player he was injected with a substance from a brown vial that Mr Dank always told him was thymosin." But Jones said that was of "no significant probative value".

comfortably satisfied that biochemist Shane Charter had bought thymosin beta-4

some inference in correspondence from Alavi that he had compounded the drug.

The tribunal was not sure that Dank had received the drug in his capacity as an Essendon representative.

The tribunal rejected the notion that he had used the legal variant, thymosin alpha.

...

Hird, who said on Tuesday he had apologised five times throughout the ordeal, could not confirm what substances were given to the players, saying it hadn't been his role as a coach to choose the supplements.

...

"There are questions that will never be answered," McLachlan said.

"There are some people who say they know what they had given and I think the players would love to know.

"From what I have read and I need to be careful because it is a confidential document, what we can say what was established through the tribunal is that theyweren't comfortably satisfied it was thymosin beta-4. I don't think they have established what it was."

I don't understand how a clear cut confession is seen to have no probative value. I sincerely doubt that he made up the Thymosin story to get himself suspended.

 

[rdhopkins2]

Workcover would surely examine this. You can't have employees receiving injections and not having accurate records. The tribunal has suggested a lack of records. That has no place in a safe workforce.

 

[KnobHead]

Dank said in an interview they were using it. It was on consent forms. Dosages discussed for tb4 matched the forms. This result is busllshit.

see what happens in the appeal

 

[Laphroaig]

interesting he didnt say records shredded. WT...........?

Shark. Must jump

 

[JDavey]

rdhopkins2 JDavey let's keep it civil. We have some actual information from the tribunal here, lets discuss that.

It's a summary of a summary, where in some sentences literally only one word is quoted without any way of validating context. It's pretty poor journalism.

 

[Nikita Blue]

Given how scathing the judgment is do you think that makes an appeal more likely?

 

[Chief]

I don't understand how a clear cut confession is seen to have no probative value. I sincerely doubt that he made up the Thymosin story to get himself suspended.

Perhaps because it was just something he was told by Dank, not something he knew for a fact.

 

[Chief]

It's a summary of a summary, where in some sentences literally only one word is quoted without any way of validating context. It's pretty poor journalism.

Its a big report apparently and the article doesn't pretend to be a complete summary.

More will come soon IMO.

 

[Blue1980]

The AFL wanted to get them off so looked at every way to make it happen. Why would you hide what was being injected if it was legit?

We will see what happens in the appeal, if there is one. I get the feeling not from ASADA but maybe WADA.

 

[morgoth]

Given how scathing the judgment is do you think that makes an appeal more likely?

Nah less, this is designed to make it hard to appeal, ie we took all the facts into account, blah blah so coming up with grounds for appeal is pretty hard.

Bit like what Middleton did to Albert.

I strongly suspect WADA will reverse the onus of proof onto the athlete if no records are available, ie no records, 2 year ban unless you can prove it. Would reverse the outcome in this case IMO and if WADA wants to close this loop hole down its probably what they have to do.

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

where would the records be for the Cronulla players, or Bock, or the Collingwood duo, or Crowley? If ASADA need records for every doping case theyre in some serious trouble

Correct. Which is why this case sets a very bad precedence for Australian team sport. WADA will come down harder on ASADA now, any hope Australian Team Sporting codes had of bargaining for differing team based approach (as has been bleeted about repeatedly in the press in recent weeks) has just been scuppered.

AFL will have to seperate from WADA/ASADA if they want to retain their existing control over the "sport". And I don't think the other Australian team sporting codes will be happy with having been tarred with the same brush.

Dank's contractor-for-hire fee just doubled ... unless the AFL expel him as the NRL have done.

 

[Ron The Bear]

"There are questions that will never be answered."

- Gill the Dill

How is this acceptable? Why hasn't Dank been questioned?

The AFL deserves to be dragged over the coals in court. C'mon Hal Hunter, don't accept the grubby payoff.

 

[andrewb]

AFL - 'it's up to the players whether they want to release the report'

Bwahahahaaaaaaaaa dogs

 

[Broken_Chairs]

It's a pretty scathing read isn't it, hardly a victory worth gloating over.

Those comments from the tribunal also provide some context for McDevitt's statement... They seem less aggressive & more in line with what was actually said. Not sure whether intentions towards an appeal can be gleaned from them.

 

[pie machine]

Essendon have done an OJ Simpson. Have they opened an arms race should be the next question from this saga. Just 'lose' the records?

I hope not

 

[rose jam]

The ASADA presser will be interesting tomorrow especially if McDevitt brings some information out.
EFC pretty simply have gotten away with doping, the more that comes out the more obvious it will be. But to the letter of the law not sufficient, but come on pretty damn obvious to everyone.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Tribunal accepted that Dank received TB4 and that Charter sourced it for compounding by Alavi.

Tribunal rejects that Thymosin Alpha was ever used at Essendon.

Tribunal has access to consent forms naming Thymosin, but can't quite figure out what that could be referencing.....despite Dank telling Fairfax he used it, and then recently going on radio to declare that it is not banned.

And they still can't work out what he was injecting into the players?

******* LOL!

 

[Chief]

Tribunal accepted that Dank received TB4 and that Charter sourced it for compounding by Alavi.

Tribunal rejects that Thymosin Alpha was ever used at Essendon.

Tribunal has access to consent forms naming Thymosin, but can't quite figure out what that could be referencing.....despite Dank telling Fairfax he used it, and then recently going on radio to declare that it is not banned.

And they still can't work out what he was injecting into the players?

******* LOL!

They can work it out, they just can't quite join those dots with enough legal certainty.

It's understandable.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

They can work it out, they just can't quite join those dots with enough legal certainty.

It's understandable.

I would've thought...

• consent forms with Thymosin on them
• rejecting that Thymosin Alpha was used at Essendon.
• a bottle Dank refers to as Thymosin being seen by players
• Acceptance that Dank received Thymosin Beta 4 from Alavi
• Dank's declaration of how he used Thymosin at Essendon
• Dank's annoyance at TB4 being referred to as a banned drug
• Players saying that they were given Thymosin

That would go a pretty long way to making me 'comfortably satisfied' that TB4 and the drug the players were getting were the same thing, but I'm obviously not a judge*.


*Although, I'm a devilishly handsome man.

 

[Ultimatt]

I would've thought...

• consent forms with Thymosin on them
• a bottle Dank refers to as Thymosin being seen by players
• Acceptance that Dank received Thymosin Beta 4 from Alavi
• Dank's declaration of how he used Thymosin at Essendon
• Dank's annoyance at TB4 being referred to as a banned drug
• Players saying that they were given Thymosin

That would go a pretty long way to making me 'comfortably satisfied' that TB4 and the drug the players were getting were the same thing, but I'm obviously not a judge*.


*Although, I'm a devilishly handsome man.

Don't forget Sandor Earl confessing to taking TB4 from Dank, and Dank texting Robinson about how it'll be the staple of their injection program at Essendon.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Don't forget Sandor Earl confessing to trafficking TB4 for Dank, and Dank texting Robinson about how it'll be the staple of their injection program at Essendon.

Ultimatt, are you comfortably satisfied?

Hehe, I am.

 

[Ultimatt]

Ultimatt, are you comfortably satisfied?

Hehe, I am.

Apparently only a positive test is enough to make some comfortably satisfied. I suppose athletes should just pharmacalogically experiment with untested peptides that have no anti-doping tests made for them, zero risk.

 

[Sir Hugh Percy]

We know in our guts that they're guilty, and this goes further to suggestion we're not wrong, but being able to prove it is another matter.

I wouldn't mind betting that the AFL stressed to their tribunal the importance of this case in the scheme of things and that that should set the bar for comfortable satisfaction at damn near beyond reasonable doubt.