The Pokie Debate - My Personal View

[Old Spice]

A reasonable criticism hey?

Go have a chat to the millions of people killed by Stalin, Mao and Kim Jong - all started with a solution very similar to socialism.

Also have a chat to some of the socialist government's in Europe (e.g. Greece). They are suffering much worse than the USA, the poster child for right wing extremism.

It is easy to blame the GFC on run-away capitalism, and in part it is to blame, but there are also other causes (such as forcing banks to lend to people who couldn't afford the loans on the basis of fairness). Also go have a chat to the thousands fleeing Cuba each month.

Capitalism is not even close to perfect and unrestrained capitalism is wrong, but capitalism with sensible regulation is the best form of government there is.

In arguing for socialism you clearly show your lack of understanding of human behaviour, and more importantly, the lessons from history. Generally blaming something as complex as the GFC on one factor shows you haven't got a proper grasp of the situation. There are many lessons from the GFC - one of which is the need to properly regulate financial markets, but the lesson is not that socialism trumps capitalism. If anything the GFC shows that socialist economics lack the flexibility to adjust and respond to global shocks.

State banks and libraries are socialist accoutrements. Lets go and arrest the librarians and Glen Stevens before we're overun by the red peril.

I can't think of a cruder argument than what you've put forward. Equating facts like a progressive taxation system, a welfare system or an arbitration system with gulags is just nutty.

What is really funny is your closing remark. Italy is hardly the benchmark of socialism, but they are up the duffer, as is Greece. Why the distinction?

 

[sammm]

sammm,

That's a great positive story of someone helping themselves through counselling and self action. I would be interested in hearing your friends thoughts on Mandatory Pre-Committment as most recovered addicts believe this scheme of only gambling a little bit wont work but Gamblers Anonymous and other counselling services are the way to go. Including the recovered addict on 4 Corners the night the Wilkie story was featured.

I think there are two types of addicts.

the person who can't control themselves at a pokie venue and gets to the point of stealing to play the pokies.

and the person like my friend who spent his pay in 1 hour the went to gamblers anonymous.

pre committment might help the 2nd person. but the not the first.

however, what my friend in the end was doing before he stopped, was trying to limit himself, but all he would do was go home get more more money or go to a bank and go to another venue. It made no difference. Self control did not work.

Even now 2 years later without gambling in pokies places, he can't wallk in to a venue at all, as he wants to play, but he knows he has no self control.

and by the way the guy has no problem with any other type of gambling, its just the pokies that he has a problem with.

pre-committment might have and probably would have helped my friend in the beginning, but once he became an addict and playing every day, nup it won't work.

I believe It will help those players just before they become an addict. not once they are an addict.

 

[Kwality]

Democratic Socialism IS common sense.

If you've got a (in your mind) reasonable criticism of it, I'm hardly stopping you from putting your point forward.

But if (as I suspect) you don't have s**t, stop posing. People that think they're above an ideology of some kind, are usually politically ignorant (i.e. they think that what THEY think hasn't been thought of before, which is just plain narcissism - my evaluation of you fits this, btw) or they're actually mentally ill (i.e. politics is out to get me, I know the truth etc etc)

Clearly the sun NEVER shines in your world.

The best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship, just it never works, nor does your doctrinaire democratic socialism. Fine theory...

Try considering issues through the prism of common sense & stop referring to your thought manual to adopt the position a democratic socialist MUST.

 

[CarltonBlues25]

Did you come down in the last flood? Honestly, what hysteria.

State banks and libraries are socialist accoutrements. Lets go and arrest the librarians and Glen Stevens before we're overun by the red peril.

I can't think of a cruder argument than what you've put forward. Equating facts like a progressive taxation system, a welfare system or an arbitration system with gulags is just nutty.

What is really funny is your closing remark. Italy is hardly the benchmark of socialism, but they are up the duffer, as is Greece. Why the distinction?

Where did I say that unrestrained capitalism is the best form of government. I believe what I said is the capitalist system is the best form, with proper regulation. Part of those regulations is things like the RBA.

State libraries etc may be social institutions but they fit within the capitalist model because they exist to correct market failure. A true capitalist doesn't simply argue everything must be determined by the free market - because the principles underpinning a free market are often not satisfied. Hence the need in many cases for regulation, or for other forms of intervention (e.g. a progressive tax system).

However, it is a long walk from these forms of market intervention to a pure socialist system.



Also Greece and most of Europe are very close to socialism - most of their governments have been social democratic governments. Where is the big crisis atm? Get an education and an understanding of history, and don't try and verbal me.

 

[LouisCK]

A reasonable criticism hey?

Go have a chat to the millions of people killed by Stalin, Mao and Kim Jong - all started with a solution very similar to socialism.

There was nothing remotely democratic about any of those three leaders.

If you think all socialism is instantly the same as authoritarian state communism, then there really is not point in me continuing to debate as you are far too ignorant to even understand my point.

Also have a chat to some of the socialist government's in Europe (e.g. Greece). They are suffering much worse than the USA, the poster child for right wing extremism.

Blaming socialism for the problems of Greece, Italy, Ireland, Iceland and Portugal shows a massive lack of understanding of the economic issues leading to their problems. Its primarily due to lack of taxation and an inability to repay debt as a result. Of course, the debt was incurred due to an over the top availability of cheap credit and a lack of regulation in the banking sector.

Again, these are problems of 'free market' systems, more than they are problems of democratic socialism.

It is easy to blame the GFC on run-away capitalism, and in part it is to blame, but there are also other causes (such as forcing banks to lend to people who couldn't afford the loans on the basis of fairness). Also go have a chat to the thousands fleeing Cuba each month.

No bank was ever forced to lend to low income earners. Its a myth and a lie constantly perpetuated by the right. It simply didn't happen, not even once.

There is a pattern here, you see, you are showing a massive level of ignorance.

Capitalism is not even close to perfect and unrestrained capitalism is wrong, but capitalism with sensible regulation is the best form of government there is.

Democratic socialists believe this too. I don't know if you even realise what you're arguing against now. But capitalism isn't a system of government, its an economic system.

In arguing for socialism you clearly show your lack of understanding of human behaviour, and more importantly, the lessons from history. Generally blaming something as complex as the GFC on one factor shows you haven't got a proper grasp of the situation. There are many lessons from the GFC - one of which is the need to properly regulate financial markets, but the lesson is not that socialism trumps capitalism. If anything the GFC shows that socialist economics lack the flexibility to adjust and respond to global shocks.

You are not very informed.

 

[LouisCK]

Clearly the sun NEVER shines in your world.

The best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship, just it never works, nor does your doctrinaire democratic socialism. Fine theory...

Try considering issues through the prism of common sense & stop referring to your thought manual to adopt the position a democratic socialist MUST.

All the countries with the highest standards of living *(Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada, Denmark) are Democratic Socialist.

The proof is in the pudding.

 

[CarltonBlues25]

All the countries with the highest standards of living *(Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada, Denmark) are Democratic Socialist.

The proof is in the pudding.

Oh dear. Australia is a democratic socialist country are we?

And you call me ill-informed?

I am not going to bother to engage with you any more - it is like talking to an Occupy protestor or a member of the socialist alliance.

Norway is wealthy because of its mineral reserves.

Canada has one of the most right wing governments in the world because socialism failed.

Capitalism is a form of economic system, which underpins a government structure. Socialism is a form of economic system, which underpins a government structure. Democracy is the form of government structure in this debate. So you are arguing for a social democracy, whereas I believe in a capitalist democracy.

As for Greece etc, the reason they have so much debt is because their socialist government pays people like train platform operators 80k a year. Their social welfare system (as in most of Europe) is unsustainable. The one shinning light in europe is Germany, which is the least socialist of all European countries.

You need to read slightly more than your socialist alliance newsletter chump.

As for the "right wing scandal re lending" this is pure fact, acknowledged by that right winger Bill Clinton.

 

[Arwib]

188,000 employed by pub-style hotels

that's pokies people

legally they are not allowed to promote gambling in any way

that's at hotels, this doesn't include the club-hotels, which are are a different category


also, people would save money, not necessarily spend it, meaning jobs may not be created

Dude, the report you posted itself, a report commissioned by the AHA, says that their modelling suggests 15000 jobs would go from the industry if you removed pokies completely. The 200 000 you're citing as "employed by pokies" is ludicrous and made up.

 

[Upton Sinclair]

I am not going to bother to engage with you any more - it is like talking to an Occupy protestor or a member of the socialist alliance.

He promised me the same thing, Louis, he never keeps to it though, more's the pity.

 

[Northalives]

I breed racehorses and have been involved in this "industry" for many years.
I like a punt but what is going on now in this country is akin to what the tobacco industry was like before they were reined in (excuse the pun).

Gambling has gone way beyond being a fun pass time to now being "A WAY OF LIFE". It is being marketed as being a desirable lifestyle pursuit and if you don't have a bet on the footy or the cricket, soccer or play the pokies etc. etc. etc., you are not part of the scene; you're not cool.

This is tobacco advertising circa 20th century and Clubs Australia, Australian Hotel Association, corporate bookmakers: they are all scum, just like the tobacco "industry".

They prey on the weak and the vulnerable and this crap about "choice" is bourgeois wank.

Poker machines should be taken out of hotels and allowed only in casinos. Gambling on sport other than horse/dog racing, should only be available via the TAB's and then only for the win/treble/quadie; "spot" wagering should be outlawed as should wagering/gambling on a horse/team/individual to lose.

Don't listen to the lies and rubbish coming out of the vested interests. I have seen the devastation caused by the insidious penetration of gambling/wagering into the psyche of our communities first hand.

Teachers at primary school level telling me that children, talking about the footy, talk about "what odds" their team is. Young ladies who, without boyfriends, spend hours in front of poker machines and when they do meet a bloke, their addiction to these machines is not broken. Suicides, bashings, robberies, extortion, relationship breakdowns, fraud, mental breakdowns etc. etc. All the things once thought of as symptoms of drug abuse are now common place with pokie/gambling addiction and don't be fooled into thinking that "addiction" is "fairly minor" amongst the population. Bookmakers I know say that if someone has a punt on two of the seven days of the week, "they're hooked" and rub their hands with glee! The person that goes to the pub after work and has a liquid refreshment and pumps the machine a few times, is rife for the picking.

No amount of loss of profits or loss of jobs makes up for the amount of suffering and social fragmentation that gambling addiction causes and for those of you who are itching to fire back with, "how about the suffering caused by losing your job if they cut pokie machines", that is a **** ing stupid argument. There is only a certain amount of money in the economy and if it is not going into pocker machines, it will go into other things and boost other areas of the economy.

The arguments put forward by the vested interest are the grotesque rantings of those who peddle misery in return for fat profits.

 

[CarltonBlues25]

He promised me the same thing, Louis, he never keeps to it though, more's the pity.

Yes because you decided to accuse me of being dishonest.

You really are a little bitch - one of those kids at school always getting picked on because they can't play well with others.

 

[Upton Sinclair]

Yes because you decided to accuse me of being dishonest.

You really are a little bitch - one of those kids at school always getting picked on because they can't play well with others.

And you envisage yourself as the bully doing the picking-on in this strange little Freudian fantasy of yours, right? Certainly explains the macho demeanour and the hollow threats to "crush me like a bug". Just, please whatever you do, keep the end of the fantasy to yourself, right? I don't want to think about it

[YOUTUBE]AO43p2Wqc08[/YOUTUBE]

Like I said, you shaping up to be a right hoot of a character!

 

[Paradigm]

I work in the gambling industry.

It is not the pokies that are the scariest to me, it's the on line availability and ability to bet on ANYTHING.

You have to get in your car, drive to the pokies, cash the money....cash more money...cash more money ...but at least it is money.

I-phone apps and internet access that lets you transfer from a credit card to on line betting is way more dangerous.

I am not a pokie fan, but I also see daily that people do need to take a certain amount of responsibility for their own actions. Every second add on the net is to play poker on line.

I don't like the pokies myself, but everything in moderation - including moderation.

 

[Arwib]

That's a very good point, although at least currently Australians' losses to sport and online gambling are a lot smaller than gaming machine losses. That may change in the future.

 

[Paradigm]

That's a very good point, although at least currently Australians' losses to sport and online gambling are a lot smaller than gaming machine losses. That may change in the future.

I would say in the past two years at least 10% of our turnover has moved to on line betting......and I would say those people now bet a lot more.
It also has a natural appeal to younger people.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

pokies provide 300,000 jobs directly from thier revenue, not to mention indirect jobs such as bistro's, bottleshops etc.

the tax from them nearly completely funds the welfare system

people may not like them, but to get on a moral high ground as a result is a bit much

does anyone know what the effect could be if they weren't around?

just because people don't spend it there, doesnt mean they will elsewhere

better support is necessary for problem gamblers, such as mandatory exclusion if identified by a venue, but elimination of the machines could potentially send the country into a depression, which the result could be a lot worse!

Yep, I was 25 when they were introduced into Vic and believe me, we haven't been better off for having them.

They will spend it elsewhere because that's exactly what they used to do before they were introduced.

No point moaning about people losing jobs if they're banned or severly curtailed, the exact same thing happened to a lot of other small businesses when disposable income was redirected into pokies.

 

[Bombertastic]

My mother is addicted to pokies, big time. I'm 36 and now have my own family. However it still affects me in a big way. This is because of my Father and what he has gone through over the past 40 years of marriage to her. I love and admire him but I see the struggle and hurt in his eyes.

He's a very religious man and has struggled to deal with a wife who is addicted to many more things then poker machines. A couple of years ago it reached critical point when she was selling every jewelry item she had (apart from her wedding ring) and running up credit card debts of over 12k just to feed her addiction.

If it wasn't for his religious beliefs and strong (seemingly desperate) determination to change her ways he would have divorced or at least left her. Many others would have. They are a toxic cancer on our society. Whether it's pokies, casinos or online gambling I believe they should all be destroyed.

The argument that these places employ members of society and give back to the community is laughable because how much they destroy. I honestly believe that they should be treated like cigarettes. It should be illegal to advertise any kind of gambling on TV, radio or print. Or any establishment that has pokies to advertise the fact. Time to get serious.

 

[Bombertastic]

Yep, I was 25 when they were introduced into Vic and believe me, we haven't been better off for having them.

They will spend it elsewhere because that's exactly what they used to do before they were introduced.

No point moaning about people losing jobs if they're banned or severly curtailed, the exact same thing happened to a lot of other small businesses when disposable income was redirected into pokies.

People would indeed spend "disposable" income in other ways. However the problem is the amount of people spending more then just that. Addiction has no limits in modern society. The amount of families that this has destroyed shows that.

We see "responsible" gambling ads on TV and in the media just about as much as anti smoking. However the advertisement of this vice is still not banned. I almost vomit every time I see that smug Tom Waterhouse on TV. How does he say "betting" and "IQ" in the same sentence and keep a straight face.

 

[Northalives]

People would indeed spend "disposable" income in other ways. However the problem is the amount of people spending more then just that. Addiction has no limits in modern society. The amount of families that this has destroyed shows that.

We see "responsible" gambling ads on TV and in the media just about as much as anti smoking. However the advertisement of this vice is still not banned. I almost vomit every time I see that smug Tom Waterhouse on TV. How does he say "betting" and "IQ" in the same sentence and keep a straight face.

Bombertastic, I empathise with the situation you and your family finds itself in.

As I said before, I've seen this type of thing many times and continue to see new addicts emerge every week.

That little bastard Waterhouse comes from a long line of bent family members and I too, almost vomit when he gets on the teli telling us that we should do ourselves a favour and bet with him.

Someone else said that online betting is surging and so is this "download an app" crap for your phone to bet with that also.

This has to stop: it has to !

 

[Upton Sinclair]

This has to stop: it has to !

We need our own Carrie Nation

 

[checkraiseulite]

Bombertastic, I empathise with the situation you and your family finds itself in.

As I said before, I've seen this type of thing many times and continue to see new addicts emerge every week.

That little bastard Waterhouse comes from a long line of bent family members and I too, almost vomit when he gets on the teli telling us that we should do ourselves a favour and bet with him.

Someone else said that online betting is surging and so is this "download an app" crap for your phone to bet with that also.

This has to stop: it has to !

I don't think you can really blame an individual provider for advertising within the parameters of what is considered legal within the industry.

Yes, advertising in the sports betting industry is excessive but it's the government that should be blamed not the bookies, they are simply falling in line with what their competitors are doing. Obviously if you don't advertise you are losing business in a rapidly expanding market place.

Blaming TW is first level IMO.

For the record I don't think sports-betting can or should be compared with pokies. The latter is a much bigger problem both in terms of proven turnover and vulnerability. I would hazard a guess that there are far more recreational sports bettors than pokies players combined with the fact that sports bettors are confined to the availability of sports/games to bet on and very rarely will people just blindly bet accross anything available.

 

[Daytripper]

That little bastard Waterhouse comes from a long line of bent family members and I too, almost vomit when he gets on the teli telling us that we should do ourselves a favour and bet with him.

Actually TW is quite a responsible provider of gambling as his take out rate would be in the vicinity of 4% - 7%. Compare that to the state sponsored pokies and Tattslotto where it is around the 25% to 30% and TAB's (16%) and there really is no comparison.

I've mentioned before but gambling only becomes an issue when you lose. With the extreme take out rates, winning becomes an impossibility and you lose money at sometimes 5 times the rate of the operators such as Waterhouse etc.

If take out rates were reduced, punters would not lose so much and there would be less issues via gambling.

Admittedly though this is a fanciful solution as governments across the board are too much in love with the gambling dollar for this to be implemented.

 

[Slattery_20]

My mother is addicted to pokies, big time. I'm 36 and now have my own family. However it still affects me in a big way. This is because of my Father and what he has gone through over the past 40 years of marriage to her. I love and admire him but I see the struggle and hurt in his eyes.

He's a very religious man and has struggled to deal with a wife who is addicted to many more things then poker machines. A couple of years ago it reached critical point when she was selling every jewelry item she had (apart from her wedding ring) and running up credit card debts of over 12k just to feed her addiction.

If it wasn't for his religious beliefs and strong (seemingly desperate) determination to change her ways he would have divorced or at least left her. Many others would have. They are a toxic cancer on our society. Whether it's pokies, casinos or online gambling I believe they should all be destroyed.

The argument that these places employ members of society and give back to the community is laughable because how much they destroy. I honestly believe that they should be treated like cigarettes. It should be illegal to advertise any kind of gambling on TV, radio or print. Or any establishment that has pokies to advertise the fact. Time to get serious.

I know this sounds incredibly unlikely from someone you don't know & probably won't ever meet, but they should move to a state with no pokies.

 

[Slattery_20]

Actually TW is quite a responsible provider of gambling as his take out rate would be in the vicinity of 4% - 7%. Compare that to the state sponsored pokies and Tattslotto where it is around the 25% to 30% and TAB's (16%) and there really is no comparison.

You think he sat down and decided to make less money to be 'responsible'?
Eternal optimist.

Bookies are in a competitive market.
Pokies & tatts aren't.

 

[Daytripper]

You think he sat down and decided to make less money to be 'responsible'?
Eternal optimist.

Bookies are in a competitive market.
Pokies & tatts aren't.

Of course.

Not saying that they are doing it out of the goodness of their own heart but people having a go at TW are really fighting the wrong fight as pokies and tatts are the real killers in regards to gambling due to their enormous take out rates.