Strategy The Structure

[The Blue Baggers]

We need a bit of the old Carlton back.. we have all bought into the clubs plan and Boltons vision and I certainly do not want to blow up what we have done so far.. In saying this we should not be accepting this, every time i see someone post or comment that we are rebuilding, we have a young list, we have injuries etc etc it makes me angry... From the North game where Bolton came out and asked for time and patience.. it was giving the players an out.. it meant that playing quality footy wasnt important because this year and each game does not matter.. It also doesnt excuse such obvious and poor selections when picking the team and even worse game day coaching..

What happened Saturday, and against Freo, Melbourne, Collingwood, North all games we went into with some confidence of winning was an absolute disgrace.. We need some strong voices back that are prepared to criticise what is going on because so far Bolton and the team have got away scot free.

Agree , Bolton has given them an Out every week. It’s gone through the whole club winning does not matter !!

 

[The Smoking Gun]

It will be nigh on impossible to maintain any meaningful forward or defensive structure until SOS recruits some decent midfielders that run both ways and some small forwards who impact with defensive pressure when they don't have the ball. Garlett, Lamb, Pickett, Polson, Lang & Lebois simply won't cut it at AFL level. They're not good enough and never will be.

I'm also sure that lack of a decent midfield at both AFL and VFL level is hindering the development of kids like McKay, SOS, Schumacher & Macreadie.

Bolton is only as good as the cattle he's got to work with and until those kids mature somewhat beating up on Bolton is pointless.

 

[Masqualero]

Just kick the ball forward.

Problem solved

 

[RudyBlue]

Stop being selective to suit. You also mentioned Byrne Williamson & Macreadie. It’s not just about best 22 it’s about having players available and playing players when fit and being consistent in selection. Injuries are effecting it all

I'd imagine a lot of our injured guys actually trained as defenders over the pre-season, allowing them to better understand the structure.

 

[Stamos]

As i have been syaing all year we continue to pick a side which is far to slow and top heavy, as such we cannot apply any midfield pressure making the entire zone defence fall apart.

The selection on the weekend was beyond disgusting, and at times we have picked Rowe, Weitering, Ploughman and Jones all in the one defence. I would pick max two of them, we even had the absurb approach of playing two ruckman and Marchbank on a wing on the weekend.

I agree that we have been too tall/slow in defence, but it's not like there have been any decent half back flankers sitting in the 2s.

Our best backline is

B: Docherty, Jones, Plowman
HB: Williamson, Weitering, Marchbank
C: Simpson (sweeping back)

Jones is the only one who hasn't been injured this year, and Simpson prior to the weekend, although he can no longer play deep. Byrne (who I have serious doubts over, but is quick and would be the next replacement) has also been injured. Cuningham, who they wanted to play back, injure. They've tried Mullet. We just don't have the players.

Note, I am not defending the selection of O'Shea, he shouldn't have ever been on the list, let alone given a game in the 1s.

 

[mickelboy182]

Stop being selective to suit. You also mentioned Byrne Williamson & Macreadie. It’s not just about best 22 it’s about having players available and playing players when fit and being consistent in selection. Injuries are effecting it all

What the *? I'm not being selective at all, I mentioned them and said they are unproven. That is literally all I said. ASOS I said is done. My goodness.

 

[Soapy V]

Agree , Bolton has given them an Out every week. It’s gone through the whole club winning does not matter !!

That’s not right at all

 

[BJuddy]

should we be pushing a certain game plan if we don't have the cattle to implement it? should we be implementing a game plan that recognises our on-field deficiencies and making the best of a bad situation rather than blindly pushing on in the hope that if and when we have less injuries, better midfield depth, [insert next excuse here] it will all come together and we will be pushing for finals and then flags? the worry is that a 1 win season does untold damage to unquantifiables - long term supporter base, financial support including sponsors, psychological damage to the playing group (loser mentality) etc etc.

I get what your saying and in most cases would agree with you. but far out, the way our team changes from week to week due to injury it would be impossible to have a game plan suited to the cattle we have available.

It is frustrating to all and massive questions need to be asked as to why all the injuries and re-injuries.

However, IMO it doesn't matter what game plan we have at the moment, it would be hard to be competitive given how decimated our team is.

You look at GWS and they are arguably the most talented team in the league on paper but have injuries to key personnel they are struggling to put runs on the board. Our club has a rebuilding list filled with great young talent and some players who are still to be turned over. Once the young guys mature and we get key players back things can change.

The growth from youngsters can be quick, see Zac Fisher and Charlie for examples.

This was never gonna be 3 years of list turn over and bam all our issues are solved. It was gonna be three hard years of list culling and regeneration then growth and development.

No-one could have predicted how hard this year would be with the loss of so many structural players. But we have to play the hand we have, as much as it sucks and it is painful to watch.

I keep hearing loser mentality, and I am not convinced. See GWS (again), go from getting flogged every week to now a great team based off development. Collingwood, have turned it around. Melbourne have, Richmond have.

Just need a bit of confidence once we string together a few wins and some continuity in putting a team on the park.

 

[OldCarltonian]

I get what your saying and in most cases would agree with you. but far out, the way our team changes from week to week due to injury it would be impossible to have a game plan suited to the cattle we have available.

It is frustrating to all and massive questions need to be asked as to why all the injuries and re-injuries.

However, IMO it doesn't matter what game plan we have at the moment, it would be hard to be competitive given how decimated our team is.

You look at GWS and they are arguably the most talented team in the league on paper but have injuries to key personnel they are struggling to put runs on the board. Our club has a rebuilding list filled with great young talent and some players who are still to be turned over. Once the young guys mature and we get key players back things can change.

The growth from youngsters can be quick, see Zac Fisher and Charlie for examples.

This was never gonna be 3 years of list turn over and bam all our issues are solved. It was gonna be three hard years of list culling and regeneration then growth and development.

No-one could have predicted how hard this year would be with the loss of so many structural players. But we have to play the hand we have, as much as it sucks and it is painful to watch.

I keep hearing loser mentality, and I am not convinced. See GWS (again), go from getting flogged every week to now a great team based off development. Collingwood, have turned it around. Melbourne have, Richmond have.

Just need a bit of confidence once we string together a few wins and some continuity in putting a team on the park.

 

[OldCarltonian]

First time....long time.
There's absolutely nothing worse than watching your team on telly ; and all it looks like is that the opposition have 2 spare defenders ALL DAY LONG. (we really want to kill Charlie don't we) and then at the other end of the ground they have 2 spare forwards. One of the goals the Bears kicked towards the end was bordering on taking the you know what.

Now I don't suggest I'm a tactical expert but I've watched thousands of games of footy. So when, in the 2nd quarter, this momentum started to shift and this god awful zone just let them do what they want (ala Freo game)......why don't we just revert to man on man??? At least for 10 minutes??

My son asked me the same question....couldn't answer him. Told him i'd get back to him by Wednesday.

BB said in the presser that we broke down behind the ball or some rubbish like that.
Well if everyone had a man - even for a few minutes - we might have been able to arrest the slide.

This does nothing for young players getting belted all day long.
This does nothing for supporters who pay good money to watch this tripe.
This does nothing to attract any decent free agents to the club.
This does nothing to help convince Cripps to stay.

I'm a realist with Carlton - wasn't expecting anything more than 3-4 wins. But this deserves an explanation.

 

[blueblooded]

First time....long time.
There's absolutely nothing worse than watching your team on telly ; and all it looks like is that the opposition have 2 spare defenders ALL DAY LONG. (we really want to kill Charlie don't we) and then at the other end of the ground they have 2 spare forwards. One of the goals the Bears kicked towards the end was bordering on taking the you know what.

Now I don't suggest I'm a tactical expert but I've watched thousands of games of footy. So when, in the 2nd quarter, this momentum started to shift and this god awful zone just let them do what they want (ala Freo game)......why don't we just revert to man on man??? At least for 10 minutes??

My son asked me the same question....couldn't answer him. Told him i'd get back to him by Wednesday.

BB said in the presser that we broke down behind the ball or some rubbish like that.
Well if everyone had a man - even for a few minutes - we might have been able to arrest the slide.

This does nothing for young players getting belted all day long.
This does nothing for supporters who pay good money to watch this tripe.
This does nothing to attract any decent free agents to the club.
This does nothing to help convince Cripps to stay.

I'm a realist with Carlton - wasn't expecting anything more than 3-4 wins. But this deserves an explanation.

Great first up post mate welcome.
completely agree, the issue when it breaks down is BB does nothing to stop the rot. we just keep persisting with the zone and it gets worse. it took until half time against Freo to rectify it (at which stage we were 77 points down) and he did nothing about it on Saturday. the commentators even noticed it wasn't working all day and from what I could see no man on man was implemented.
very stubborn and if it doesn't improve next year he'll be out of a job.

 

[AceAndy]

Agree , Bolton has given them an Out every week. It’s gone through the whole club winning does not matter !!

The worse thing you can tell a group of footballers is that winning doesnt matter.

It seems that message has got through to the playing group.

 

[OldCarltonian]

The worse thing you can tell a group of footballers is that winning doesnt matter.

It seems that message has got through to the playing group.

Exactly....you can see it in their faces. Oh well, there's always next week, no one is going to take my spot (this is the actual problem). When players like Rowe, Jones, Lamb (don't get me started) can make endless mistakes and STILL get a game it kills you. Would love to know how you can gift a game to Lang (like my Dad always says - good teams don't let go of good players, just the crap ones)....yet H has to wait and wait and wait. Again we need to know why. I aint going again this season until they do

 

[gbatman]

should we be pushing a certain game plan if we don't have the cattle to implement it? should we be implementing a game plan that recognises our on-field deficiencies and making the best of a bad situation rather than blindly pushing on in the hope that if and when we have less injuries, better midfield depth, [insert next excuse here] it will all come together and we will be pushing for finals and then flags? the worry is that a 1 win season does untold damage to unquantifiables - long term supporter base, financial support including sponsors, psychological damage to the playing group (loser mentality) etc etc.

No game plan works if you can't win the ball, maintain possession of the ball, run and apply pressure to the opposition. Those are the foundation to any gameplan and we don't do those things well or consistently.

I am not for game plans that accommodate these deficiencies. Mostly because you can't but secondly because it won't get you anywhere. It's not a great way to develop a team. You can't just go we're slow, undisciplined, small, not great with skills or ability or whatever and decide to make a game plan around that. Then you start developing a game plan you can't win a flag with. You need to push fundamentally good football. Sure at club level you accommodate but in the AFL it's different.

It's not a good situation to be in but there is nothing we can do about it short term. We have a weak list and a lot of injuries. A lot of young and tired players. The only way out is to recruit, trade and draft really well and wait for those players to mature. All that damage is quickly undone when success, particularly in the form of a flag happens. There are no short term fixes here, nothing that will work. You're better off not worrying about that and fix that later.

The way we are seeing our players play, it's not the game plan, we've seen how we play when we are up and it looks good. The first quarter against Brisbane, I had a good look and there was nothing wrong with the game plan, had we better executed our skills better we could have been 3 or 4 goals up at quarter time. We defended well, turned the ball over well and won possessions and moved the ball well but we just failed to execute our skills. We ran out of gas and ended up being physically dominated and as the game went on we growingly failed at the fundamentals of the game. Failed to run, pressure, make position, win the footy and move it. Wasn't game plan, was effort, fitness, capability or whatever. We've defended really well and push numbers back really well for two weeks and this week we were unable to do that.

When we are playing good football it will look better but it won't be because the game plan has changed, it will be because our capabilities have improved. When we start winning more contests, have more skilled and better players in the team and have less players outside their prime and are bigger, stronger and quicker we will start applying more pressure, have the ball more, keep it forward more, kick more goals and defend with more success.

Honestly our game plan looks good, we're just getting beaten and we're just not good enough to play 4 quarters of footy at this level week in week out. No plan is going to change that. We're tired, unskilled, small, immature, lacking in talent in a lot of areas. We don't always apply enough pressure. We're a little slow so we need to deal with that. Rotations aren't overly impressive. We just struggle to maintain things and apply the basic fundamentals at a consistent level and that comes down to the capabilities of our players.

I think what we need to focus on is keeping our players fresh. We just seem to be getting injuries. We look tired at times. I'm sure a lot of them are playing sore. It's a pretty stock standard game plan really but at this stage we're not good enough.

 

[Blue Bloods]

Agree , Bolton has given them an Out every week. It’s gone through the whole club winning does not matter !!

In the interview of Simmo after his 300th game, Brad said "shame you couldn't come away with a win" Simmo's reply was "Oh that's not important" or something along those words.

It was a fast reply with not a lot of thought and he was emotional, but made me think not the best mind set of a leader at the club.

 

[SurreyBlue]

In the interview of Simmo after his 300th game, Brad said "shame you couldn't come away with a win" Simmo's reply was "Oh that's not important" or something along those words.

It was a fast reply with not a lot of thought and he was emotional, but made me think not the best mind set of a leader at the club.

Exactly. Someone else mentioned it but we have given another group of CFC players ‘an out’. Embarrasing culture.

 

[J-dog]

This will be my last post for a while, I've spent enough time on here.
A bit of composure now please people as the game was a few days ago.
Did anyone listen to SEN this morning? Before 7am Dal Santo and some other bloke were talking about the Blues and they paid us out. Said they couldn't understand what we were doing and defensively we looked like we had lost the plot. Fair call.
After 8am they had the Lions coach Fagan on the phone and praised him for how the Lions were going. Said that last year they couldn't understand what or where the Lions were going and they were still a mess, but wow how good are things looking now with a few wins and very high percentage.
Last question they asked him was 'what are the greatest challenges you face as a coach of a side that's so young with such little experience?'.
His response was it's most difficult to stay on course for what you planned to coach, even if people wavered to keep them focused on how you want them to play, and to resist the urge to tinker with your gameplan when things aren't going your way. That's the guy who just beat us by 10 goals.
So what I'm saying is, let's all just remember that we are still very early days for what we are trying to do.
I still believe in Bolts even though I have been critical the last 3 weeks. He's the only coach who has tried to get us passing the ball forward in a chain since well before Ratten even, and i also think it's harder than ever for teams to win and be successful.
I've said all year that I can't believe how close game blow out to 4 and 5 goal losses in the last 2 minutes for any team not just us.
We started on a road, up until now we had been doing pretty well, the kids we are bringing in all show a lot of promise, and most are pushing through their difficulties and are getting more attention from opposition coaches/players.
We were good in 95, then shut after 2k, then good with Ratts and then s**t with MM.
We are building something very big from scratch and until the Freo game looked like we will eventually achieve it. Let's just let the players and coaches do their thing for the whole season and see at the end of the year who has the real cojones to make number 17 eventually happen.

 

[Jesse Deluxe]

As i have been syaing all year we continue to pick a side which is far to slow and top heavy, as such we cannot apply any midfield pressure making the entire zone defence fall apart.

The selection on the weekend was beyond disgusting, and at times we have picked Rowe, Weitering, Ploughman and Jones all in the one defence. I would pick max two of them, we even had the absurb approach of playing two ruckman and Marchbank on a wing on the weekend.

Apart from maybe Jones none of those players would get a game at any other club.

Bolton has lost his confidence and his marbles. Has Kruz or Phillips ever once given a glimmer of hope as a forward over the past 8-10 years.

Surely he’s taking the piss and tanking. Phillips and Kruz would be the least likely forwards in our team.

 

[blue healer]

As i have been syaing all year we continue to pick a side which is far to slow and top heavy, as such we cannot apply any midfield pressure making the entire zone defence fall apart.

The selection on the weekend was beyond disgusting, and at times we have picked Rowe, Weitering, Ploughman and Jones all in the one defence. I would pick max two of them, we even had the absurb approach of playing two ruckman and Marchbank on a wing on the weekend.

I think the structure of the sides we pick is a reflection of our overall structure and exacerbated by our injury toll.

We have 11 players on our list who are 195 cms or taller. Richmond and Sydney (I think the best 2 teams) have 6 in that range. All other top 5 teams have around 8.

IMO our list is unbalanced to begin with and injuries (which are mostly outside this height range) further unbalance it.

If the top teams can remain on top with that number, what do we do with our extra five?

We have, apparently adopted a "best available" drafting strategy and, whilst I believe that to be best when rebuilding, it has resulted in too many extra tall and (in most cases) slower players. I think it's time we started to change the balance of our list through the trading.

 

[Arr0w]

I think the structure of the sides we pick is a reflection of our overall structure and exacerbated by our injury toll.

We have 11 players on our list who are 195 cms or taller. Richmond and Sydney (I think the best 2 teams) have 6 in that range. All other top 5 teams have around 8.

IMO our list is unbalanced to begin with and injuries (which are mostly outside this height range) further unbalance it.

If the top teams can remain on top with that number, what do we do with our extra five?

We have, apparently adopted a "best available" drafting strategy and, whilst I believe that to be best when rebuilding, it has resulted in too many extra tall and (in most cases) slower players. I think it's time we started to change the balance of our list through the trading.

That will change soon with a couple of retirements and some being delisted

 

[Iamcarlton]

That will change soon with a couple of retirements and some being delisted

Well that depends on the strategy going forward
King BSOS not much changes . One would think the balance will even out but im not so sure tbh .
How hard will we go for midfielders with pace ?

 

[Arr0w]

Well that depends on the strategy going forward
King BSOS not much changes . One would think the balance will even out but im not so sure tbh .
How hard will we go for midfielders with pace ?

Very hard

This draft has some kids through to the 3rd round that have burst quality

 

[RudyBlue]

Very hard

This draft has some kids through to the 3rd round that have burst quality

Would I be right in thinking that after Walsh and maybe Smith, the next rung of pure mids are pretty even in quality?

Also, where do you reckon the quality drops off? Would it be worth splitting one of our 2nd rounders into two slightly later picks with the GC?

 

[blue healer]

That will change soon with a couple of retirements and some being delisted

Following is the list of players 195+cms:

Kreuzer, Cripps, McKay, TDK, Jones, Rowe, Weitering, McReadie, Lobbe, Phillips, Casboult.

Rowe aside, which of those players are going to retire this season and, more importantly, who will we delist?

I admit Cripps, as a mid, skews that number slightly but it is still 4 more than that of the Swans and Richmond.

To better balance our list I think we need to look to trade at least two and possibly three out of this height range.

You will note that this list does not include rookies.

 

[blue healer]

Very hard

This draft has some kids through to the 3rd round that have burst quality

So you don't think we should draft what many believe to be the best KPF since Reiwoldt?